Thousands join anti-Trump protests around country

[Morch]

26 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Rather than trying to guess the thought process of a Trump supporter, why don't you just ask one of us?

 

So Trump made a comment and then edited it? Guess what--we agreed with his first tweet and fully understood why he modified it--to try to appease the mass of people throwing temper tantrums in the street. We would prefer they show some dignity in losing and we are glad Trump made a statement of peace and reconciliation. 

 

The two tweets are in no way mutually exclusive.

 

You are making much ado about nothing.

 

Sorry.

 

It's hardly the first time this subject came up. Plenty of responses from Trump available for making observations.

 

Guess again, Trump was touted as someone who says what he thinks, not a politician - this was a huge part of his appeal. So now Trump acts like a politician, counter to his previously projected image. The man backpedals, changes versions of what he says or did - and suddenly Trump supporters seem to be hard at work explaining it away.

 

I think Trump supporters were conned on this one. At least the many of them who actually bought into his act. And I don't think it will stop there, considering his appointments and conduct.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

If you want to appeal to Republicans then behave like a Republican--be respectful.

 

Works for me.

 

 

 

Are all Republican's always respectful? In the US? On this forum? Is Trump respectful?

[ClutchClark]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

It's hardly the first time this subject came up. Plenty of responses from Trump available for making observations.

 

Guess again, Trump was touted as someone who says what he thinks, not a politician - this was a huge part of his appeal. So now Trump acts like a politician, counter to his previously projected image. The man backpedals, changes versions of what he says or did - and suddenly Trump supporters seem to be hard at work explaining it away.

 

I think Trump supporters were conned on this one. At least the many of them who actually bought into his act. And I don't think it will stop there, considering his appointments and conduct.

 

Anyone who believes campaign promises is setting themselves up to be conned. 

 

Its humorous to my republican friends that the only people who took Trump at his word are the Liberals.

 

For us, a vote for Trump was a vote for the Republican platform. 

Very simple.

 

The republican politicians now see their electorate wants change. Hopefully they will listen. Even if they don't we are still better off than under a Democrat platform. 

 

Trump won.

Republicans won.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

Westerns living in Thailand aren't the issue. If you'd like to try drawing parallels, a better example would be Thailand handling of foreign workers from neighboring countries. The push to provide them with registration and legal status was not a bad thing.

Hmmmmmm. Thailand needs workers and I believe the unemployment level is low.

The US does not need illegal workers as they have a high unemployment level.

 

The fact seems to be that illegals are wanted by employers to exploit them, and the Dems as future voters. Far better to pay wages that will attract the unemployed, and make up any shortfall in labour with guest workers at proper rates of pay, so as not to falsely skew election results.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

As far as what is "normal" now ... trump's way is "normal" now. Anyone that thinks American politics is EVER going to be the way it was before trump is very naive. Consider the younger Americans IMPRINTED now with the recent campaign. Depending on their age, that's a campaign for them.

 Any major change from that in future political campaigns is going to seem "abnormal" to them.

 

This reminds me of a story of an artist friend of mine.

Her art career was finding momentum and then 911 happened.

She kept doing the exact same style of art work as before.

She was universally told by galleries that her work had no relevance anymore post 911 and that she needed to change it radically or forget about any hope of success.

She didn't and/or she didn't really want to.

Or something more complicated ... it just wasn't in her to react to the new social and political reality, she didn't really FEEL it like most of the nation did, so any reaction to please the market wouldn't have been authentic.

Her previously promising career fizzled away.

 

I suspect there is a lesson to be learned from that story now that we're entering the trump era. For those that can't / won't board the trump train (which to so many of us reminds of us autocratic regimes in history) their choice is either to retreat or oppose. 

 

I seriously doubt the old ways of opposition will succeed any more. 

 

 

 

Well, obviously, I'm not of the same end of days style opinion.

 

There are examples of countries moving from democracy to dictatorship and back again. The US isn't even there yet (and hopefully will not experience the same). Public opinion and normative views are subject to change. It is way easier to move them in an undesirable direction, fair enough. Saying it can't be reversed is a cop out. It's basically accepting Trump's victory - and I don't mean him winning the elections.

 

Your story could have another interpretation, applied to the Democrat Party and Liberals (or for that matter, the GOP). Like it or not, the elections were lost also due to certain policies and modes of conduct becoming irrelevant, or disconnected from public sentiment. So perhaps some of the change will require a measure of introspection from the above.

 

For all the doubts regarding the "old ways" - there's relatively less said about the supposed "new ways".

[amykat]

17 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Actually its all part of the same issue.

 

No it really wasn't and it was a totally illogical argument and you can't argue back to that as you can see by your mess of an answer

 

17 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Westerners in Thailand who follow the rules are welcome. Westerners who overstay are penalized. 

 Here you speak of Westerners and below  you switch to the need for labor and conflate the two

 

17 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Right now Thailand needs labor so manage the foreign workforce and make them accountable. They are not being offered Thai citizenship but only the security they won't be sent home for working outside the law. When they are no longer needed they can be sent home. If they get drunk, start fights, steal, then they can be more easily found and identified and sent home.

 

Is getting drunk illegal ....I thought that would be more for indentured servants ...are you getting your ideas confused again?  And they can be more easily found than whom ..as compared to what??? 

 

Don't we allow people into the US to work? 

 

They have illegal workers, we have illegal workers

 

 

17 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Perfectly reasonable.

 

Why do Liberals not call this "hate"? Why is it only hate if America does it? Is it white guilt? Is it reverse prejudice? Is it simply that they have been manipulated to identify with a certain ideology? 

 

We believe in some human rights and some other countries do not?

 

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Anyone who believes campaign promises is setting themselves up to be conned. 

 

Its humorous to my republican friends that the only people who took Trump at his word are the Liberals.

 

For us, a vote for Trump was a vote for the Republican platform. 

Very simple.

 

The republican politicians now see their electorate wants change. Hopefully they will listen. Even if they don't we are still better off than under a Democrat platform. 

 

Trump won.

Republicans won.

 

I don't think that you yourself accurately represent all those who voted for Trump. And I'm certain that Liberals were not the only ones who took Trump at his word. Even on this forum, there were posts repeatedly proclaiming Trump's what you hear is what you'll get - made by Trump supporters.

 

Saying I knew all along....oh well, anyone can.

 

As for Trump's being a tool for a Republican platform, again, for you, perhaps. Many voted for him because of his anti-"establishment" rhetoric and image.

 

 

[Morch]

26 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmmm. Thailand needs workers and I believe the unemployment level is low.

The US does not need illegal workers as they have a high unemployment level.

 

The fact seems to be that illegals are wanted by employers to exploit them, and the Dems as future voters. Far better to pay wages that will attract the unemployed, and make up any shortfall in labour with guest workers at proper rates of pay, so as not to falsely skew election results.

 

I doubt  US citizens will rush to secure minimum wage jobs. And is there indeed a wage reform on the horizon or just an opinion?

[Morch]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Except its not "politics as normal".

 

Election results are usually argued about in the media.  But now we have anti protesters around the country sometimes chasing and attacking those who voted for the other candidate.

 

I've little doubt that Trump is only interested in himself - but the demonstrations against Trump are very unusual.

 

Unusual demonstrations for an unusual president-elect.

[ilostmypassword]

31 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmmm. Thailand needs workers and I believe the unemployment level is low.

The US does not need illegal workers as they have a high unemployment level.

 

The fact seems to be that illegals are wanted by employers to exploit them, and the Dems as future voters. Far better to pay wages that will attract the unemployed, and make up any shortfall in labour with guest workers at proper rates of pay, so as not to falsely skew election results.

But Trump opposes raising the minimum wage as do the Republicans.  Evil Hillary supported raising the minimum wage as do virtually all the Democrats.

[lannarebirth]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

As far as what is "normal" now ... trump's way is "normal" now. Anyone that thinks American politics is EVER going to be the way it was before trump is very naive. Consider the younger Americans IMPRINTED now with the recent campaign. Depending on their age, that's a campaign for them.

 Any major change from that in future political campaigns is going to seem "abnormal" to them.

 

This reminds me of a story of an artist friend of mine.

Her art career was finding momentum and then 911 happened.

She kept doing the exact same style of art work as before.

She was universally told by galleries that her work had no relevance anymore post 911 and that she needed to change it radically or forget about any hope of success.

She didn't and/or she didn't really want to.

Or something more complicated ... it just wasn't in her to react to the new social and political reality, she didn't really FEEL it like most of the nation did, so any reaction to please the market wouldn't have been authentic.

Her previously promising career fizzled away.

 

I suspect there is a lesson to be learned from that story now that we're entering the trump era. For those that can't / won't board the trump train (which to so many of us reminds of us autocratic regimes in history) their choice is either to retreat or oppose. 

 

I seriously doubt the old ways of opposition will succeed any more. 

 

 

 

"The medium is the message" explains a lot of it. From newspapers daily to twice a day TV news to 24 hour news to the internet and Twitter. No time for thoughtful messaging. Always in reaction mode. Still, young people I know don't see this election as the new norm. They see it as another example of how prior generations are messing up the world. Can't believe two candidates such as these are the best America has to offer. Can't beleve the Dems would have undermined Bernie. I think they'll do better when given a chance.

Edited November 20, 2016 by lannarebirth

[Ulysses G.]

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

But Trump opposes raising the minimum wage as do the Republicans.  Evil Hillary supported raising the minimum wage as do virtually all the Democrats.

 

Actually President Trump is open to raising the mini!um wage, but IMO, not enough.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/29/donald-trump-federal-minimum-wage-prices-2009-2016

[lannarebirth]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I doubt  US citizens will rush to secure minimum wage jobs. And is there indeed a wage reform on the horizon or just an opinion?

 

Minimum wage reform is taking place state by state. Blue states are well ahead of Red states in minimum wage reform. Many Red states still pay the Federally mandated minimum wage which is nowhere near a living wage. This low wage must be supplemented by federal and state programs supplying food, housing and healthcare. This is a defacto subsidy of the corporations paying these non living wages.

Edited November 20, 2016 by lannarebirth

[SheungWan]

27 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

"The medium is the message" explains a lot of it. From newspapers daily to twice a day TV news to 24 hour news to the internet and Twitter. No time for thoughtful messaging. Always in reaction mode. Still, young people I know don't see this election as the new norm. They see it as another example of how prior generations are messing up the world. Can't believe two candidates such as these are the best America has to offer. Can't beleve the Dems would have undermined Bernie. I think they'll do better when given a chance.

 

Because Bernie was considered a big loser. Second time lucky? Right.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think that you yourself accurately represent all those who voted for Trump. And I'm certain that Liberals were not the only ones who took Trump at his word. Even on this forum, there were posts repeatedly proclaiming Trump's what you hear is what you'll get - made by Trump supporters.

 

Saying I knew all along....oh well, anyone can.

 

As for Trump's being a tool for a Republican platform, again, for you, perhaps. Many voted for him because of his anti-"establishment" rhetoric and image.

 

 

Perhaps you didn't notice, but the GOP and Trump are making googoo eyes at each other now. A truce, if not the end of war has been called.

As for myself, I have many times stated that no one should believe politicians as every time their mouths open they lie. Trump may not have been a politician, but the moment he stepped in to the White House it probably corrupted him. The best I can hope from him now is to try for an end to illegal immigration, constitutional SCOTUS judges and a sane health insurance policy.

The rest will depend on the people he has gathered around him. So far he has made great choices.

[lannarebirth]

11 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Because Bernie was considered a big loser. Second time lucky? Right.

 

An organization that the party faithful contributed to, conspired with his opponent to undermine his candidacy because he was a big loser or because all the really big money had placed their bets elsewhere?  Before the Democrats can get right and have any kind of righteous indignation towards the Trump presidency they'd better come to terms on why it is they lost in the first place, or they're going to get a lot more of the same.

[Ulysses G.]

2 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Minimum wage reform is taking place state by state. Blue states are well ahead of Red states in minimum wage reform. Many Red states still pay the Federally mandated minimum wage which is nowhere near a living wage. This low wage must be supplemented by federal and state programs supplying food, housing and healthcare. This is a defacto subsidy of the corporations paying these non living wages.

 

Another great post. The minimum wage needs to be raised to the point where a person can live on it without food stamps and  subsidized housing. They also need to be able to afford decent healthcare. The present Federal minimum wage is absurd.

[jcsmith]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The US does not need illegal workers as they have a high unemployment level.

 

The fact seems to be that illegals are wanted by employers to exploit them, and the Dems as future voters. Far better to pay wages that will attract the unemployed, and make up any shortfall in labour with guest workers at proper rates of pay, so as not to falsely skew election results.

The U.S. unemployment rate is at around 5% currently which is not a high level for a developed country. Illegal immigrants are taking jobs that basically nobody else wants. Those same jobs are available to anyone who wants them, get paid under the table, but most people simply do not want those jobs. 

[tropo]

9 minutes ago, jcsmith said:

The U.S. unemployment rate is at around 5% currently which is not a high level for a developed country. Illegal immigrants are taking jobs that basically nobody else wants. Those same jobs are available to anyone who wants them, get paid under the table, but most people simply do not want those jobs. 

 

I think you'll find the truth is that nobody wants those jobs for the money on offer. Get rid of the desperate illegals who work for cheap, and the employers will have to pay a decent wage for the jobs you claim no one wants.

 

For example, Australia pays a fairly decent minimum wage of $17.70 per hour (currently). There's no problem finding workers for any jobs. They don't have millions of illegal workers clamoring to work on the cheap. 

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

An organization that the party faithful contributed to, conspired with his opponent to undermine his candidacy because he was a big loser or because all the really big money had placed their bets elsewhere?  Before the Democrats can get right and have any kind of righteous indignation towards the Trump presidency they'd better come to terms on why it is they lost in the first place, or they're going to get a lot more of the same.

 

Because he is a big loser and the figurehead of a speeded-up crash that the DP threatens to become. Mind you, since Trump won the Presidency on a right-wing populist ticket there will be those who are thinking that they can get lucky turning the DP into a right-on left-wing populist ticket: 'Its Our Turn Next!' malarkey. Jeremy Corbyn must be beaming thought messages across the Atlantic verily as I speak.

[ClutchClark]

1 hour ago, jcsmith said:

Those same jobs are available to anyone who wants them, get paid under the table, but most people simply do not want those jobs.

 

Apparently you do not realize that it is against the law to work "under the table" and any American doing so is subject to severe penalties for failing to report income. 

 

I do find it interesting that you advocate such exploitive practices against undocumented workers who are left as victims in such arrangements and provided no OSHA or workplace safety or any other protections. 

[GinBoy2]

Without wanting to be a spoilsport, but back to the OP, I'm kind of interested how many of the protesters actually voted? I had a 'spirited' discussion with one of my daughters who was on her way to a protest in San Francisco, yet hadn't seem to find time to actually vote.

 

The turnout this year was the lowest in 20 years, so regardless of who actually won, they would been elected by basically a quarter of the population.

 

Not exactly democracy's finest hour!

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by GinBoy2

[Linzz]

On 11/20/2016 at 6:49 AM, tropo said:

Obama: 

 

“And I suspect that there’s not a president in our history that hasn’t been subject to these protests. So, I would not advise people who feel strongly or who are concerned about some of the issues that have been raised during the course of the campaign, I wouldn’t advise them to be silent.”

 

Perhaps he forgot to add,  "go on trashing shops and cars and beating up anyone who looks like a Trump voter and if they didn't too bad because too many did so it's good to make examples out there just to make the point against those who  insulted my legacy. At least that way I can obtain some vicarious satisfaction"

[Linzz]

12 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Why can't family units travel together?  

 

Undocumented workers made personal choices and gambled that breaking known laws would work out.

 

Sometimes when you gamble you lose.

 

The only person at fault is the person who took the risk and exposed his/her/X family to suffer the consequence.

 

If I moved to Canada illegally (circumventing their customs & Immigration laws) and started a family and the authorities caught up with me. Who is responsible? Its pretty obviously me.

 

Not a bad risk when you have political facilitation legal assistance and sanctuary cities to mitigate that risk all the while being undocumented (which is a nicer and more acceptable way of saying illegal)

[jcsmith]

5 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

 

Apparently you do not realize that it is against the law to work "under the table" and any American doing so is subject to severe penalties for failing to report income. 

 

I do find it interesting that you advocate such exploitive practices against undocumented workers who are left as victims in such arrangements and provided no OSHA or workplace safety or any other protections. 

 

I'm not advocating anything. I'm pointing out the fallacy in the statement that they are illegals are stealing American jobs. However if you were out of work and among the 5% unemployed and you really wanted work you can certainly find it. McDonalds is always hiring. And you can always go work one of the jobs available to illegal migrants if you truly want to. Americans don't want those jobs, they'd probably prefer unemployment instead in most cases. That's fine, but understanding that to be true then it throws a monkey wrench in the argument that they are stealing your jobs.

[jcsmith]

3 hours ago, Linzz said:

 

Perhaps he forgot to add,  "go on trashing shops and cars and beating up anyone who looks like a Trump voter and if they didn't too bad because too many did so it's good to make examples out there just to make the point against those who  insulted my legacy. At least that way I can obtain some vicarious satisfaction"

 

You may have forgotten to say it, but it's a falsehood to say it too. Most of the protests have been peaceful. There has been some looting and rioting in some protests, but that is not the norm. Neither is beating up anyone who looks like a Trump supporter. And if you want to walk that line then you have to also acknowledge all of the hate crimes coming from Trump supporters.

[ClutchClark]

9 minutes ago, jcsmith said:

And if you want to walk that line then you have to also acknowledge all of the hate crimes coming from Trump supporters.

 

I will acknowledge they were committed by Trump supporters after investigations and arrests result in court convictions.

 

Right now, there is nothing to indicate what the motivations were. It could just as easily been more of George Soros behind the scene manipulations as anything else. 

 

When I see convictions then I will be the first to condemn the individuals should they be Trump supporters if they are responsible. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by ClutchClark

[Morch]

11 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Minimum wage reform is taking place state by state. Blue states are well ahead of Red states in minimum wage reform. Many Red states still pay the Federally mandated minimum wage which is nowhere near a living wage. This low wage must be supplemented by federal and state programs supplying food, housing and healthcare. This is a defacto subsidy of the corporations paying these non living wages.

 

8 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Another great post. The minimum wage needs to be raised to the point where a person can live on it without food stamps and  subsidized housing. They also need to be able to afford decent healthcare. The present Federal minimum wage is absurd.

 

And where do the GOP and the president-elect (or his staff, cabinet and handlers) stand on that? Far as I recall, they are pretty much opposed to such measures, but I could have got it wrong.

[Morch]

50 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

I will acknowledge they were committed by Trump supporters after investigations and arrests result in court convictions.

 

Right now, there is nothing to indicate what the motivations were. It could just as easily been more of George Soros behind the scene manipulations as anything else. 

 

When I see convictions then I will be the first to condemn the individuals should they be Trump supporters if they are responsible. 

 

But you have no problems with generalizations regarding protestors actions, without similar investigations, arrests and convictions. The related Soros conspiracy arguments have been demonstrated (across a few topics) to be having less beef to them then claimed. Stating it as fact does not make it so.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Morch

[lannarebirth]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

And where do the GOP and the president-elect (or his staff, cabinet and handlers) stand on that? Far as I recall, they are pretty much opposed to such measures, but I could have got it wrong.

 

My recollection is that Trump is opposed to an increase in the minimum wage. And so would I be if it were still reserved for high school and college students transitioning to better opportunities. The sad fact is that there are tens of millions of people now whose whole lifetime employment will be at the minimum wage or very near it. Even though i am impacted by having to pay more, it is the right thing to do.