UK: right-wing extremist Thomas Mair given life term for MP Jo Cox’s murder

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

 

Oh I see, so he just woke up one morning and decided he was a white supremacist.  All the books found in his home were just incidental then.  I am impressed by your knowledge 

 

People arrive at their political convictions for a whole history of reasons and strangely enough I have read a lot of books as well. Bottom line? People are responsible for their actions. Particularly when they commit murder. Premeditated murder.

[SgtRock]

30 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Bottom line? People are responsible for their actions. Particularly when they commit murder. Premeditated murder.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

People are responsible for their actions. Not any Brexit referendum.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

People arrive at their political convictions for a whole history of reasons and strangely enough I have read a lot of books as well. Bottom line? People are responsible for their actions. Particularly when they commit murder. Premeditated murder.

 

I totally agree.  I also think that whatever influences people to follow any political doctrine is up to them.  But to take that to extremes to the point of pre-meditated murder then they have to have been manipulated in some way or another.  That manipulation does not have to come from a person, it could come from an ideology.  I think we are just splitting hairs here, we both believe he was sane enough to commit pre-meditated murder and deserves the full weight of the law.  

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

Absolutely correct.

 

People are responsible for their actions. Not any Brexit referendum.

 

5 hours ago, dunroaming said:

 

I totally agree.  I also think that whatever influences people to follow any political doctrine is up to them.  But to take that to extremes to the point of pre-meditated murder then they have to have been manipulated in some way or another.  That manipulation does not have to come from a person, it could come from an ideology.  I think we are just splitting hairs here, we both believe he was sane enough to commit pre-meditated murder and deserves the full weight of the law.  

 

This is not about splitting hairs. 'Manipulation' continues to imply responsibility not fully with the guilty party. So yet again I will repeat that the Courts have found this person guilty of premeditated murder. There is no mental illness and no direction as to his actions either. If there was direction then other parties would have been prosecuted under a charge of conspiracy to murder. OK, enough on that (hopefully). However, this is not to deny motive in the crime. Crimes have motives. Those Brexiteers pushing the mental illness story wanted to cover up the guys political opinion which provides us with the background for motive, namely that he was a neo-Nazi Brexit supporter. They weren't comfortable with that and nor should they be. By the way, if you want examples of direction and conspiracy to commit murder look no further than the Islamist terrorist campaign. The Brexit campaign got ugly and this guy was the ugliest of the lot but pales into absolute insignificance compared to the Islamist one. What frightens people about the Jo Cox murder is that they heard an echo, however faint that was, and worry that a genie is out of the bag.

[Grouse]

13 hours ago, petermik said:

Lethal injection is required

 

He'll be getting a few hot pork injections while he survives

[Grouse]

15 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Yes he was but that doesn't mean he is not mentally ill. I understand why the CPS went that way in its prosecution and I am not against that decision.  Also as a terrorist, again I am not against it just question the exact definition. Better he is in a maximum security prison than a cushy mental hospital prison with chance of parole as he can be cured. Just look at Ian Brady.

Just for those who don't think he was mentally ill to do what he did, when and how, if that doesn't make you a sick mentally ill person then what does.

 

Clearly you don't understand the difference between mad and bad

 

Dont ask me to explain my definition of being mentally subnormal. You wouldn't like it.

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

When both sides turn up the lying rhetoric, it only serves to crank up the next ludicrous claim, they are both responsible.

 

Trust me when I tell you that you do not have to tell me about irresponsible behaviour of politicians having unintended consequences. I can give you first hand experience, so to allude to it being a new phenomenon that has just appeared, or is related to Brexit is a crock.

 

Some people need to get there head around the fact, that sometimes life is bitch, bad things happen in this world and to try and lay the blame on a single event is absolutely futile.

 

Why does Gravy lik you so much?

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Actually if you look on this thread that you contributed too. Grouse clearly states he was not mentally ill.  The judge said it and it was on the BBC news. AlexRich on another related thread, also unquestionably stated he was not insane. These two posters along with yourself are the ones who have used this rhetoric, to claim that due to the referendum and brexit, we have all become racist'. Something I totally disagree with.

 

 

He was said to be a nice normal chap by a neighbour

 

His house was clean and (excessively) tidy

 

He held down a steady job

 

He was Internet savvy

 

He researched everything well

 

He was fit to stand trial

 

What kind of mentally ill is he?

 

Frankly, you could accuse some people on here as being a bit nuts 

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

. yes OK then. The courts are always right and never get it wrong! Well I am sure his not taking the stand, not answering questions at the police interview has shown his sanity.

 

He was trying to be a mini Breivik. He was going to give a speech at the end of the trial. Grandstanding if you like. Deluded certainly.

 

BTW your laughing emoticons are inappropriate 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Grouse

[Laughing Gravy]

14 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

If you think the Courts were incorrect in this matter why don't you have a word with the Defence Team and prepare a case for appeal for them.

If you spend  a lot of time in the courts working with the CPS you would grasp the concept of how they work and how they try to get the best conviction. This is from 'first hand experience' and not from 'UK Law and Order' TV. You are making it your own political agenda.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Why does Gravy lik you so much?

I actually find many of his posts truthful and of the same opinion. I do with a few other posters on here. Why is that not allowed? You certainly have people who like what you say. It is called debating, having similar or difference of opinions. Some do it nicely others shout down and try and ridicule posters.

I have actually liked some of your posts. Can you tell me what you are implying?

Edited November 24, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

He was trying to be a mini Breivik. He was going to give a speech at the end of the trial. Grandstanding if you like. Deluded certainly.

 

BTW your laughing emoticons are inappropriate 

Not at all. The poster said in your non legal opinion which is secondary. That is funny to me. How does he know. I will answer for you. He doesn't, in fact the opposite. Again trying to belittle me. I don't mind you having a difference of opinion, its the derogatory terms and remarks that are un called for. We clearly have a difference of opinion.  I can live with that. Can you without throwing insults?

Edited November 24, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[DM07]

 

He is  one crazy warped individual. Not part of a cell/ group of like minded people, committing terrible crimes on a daily basis.

So let me get that straight: to be labeled "terrorist" you have to be part of a group?

Otherwise, any act of terror is just... well .. not that?

The fact that he was a white fascist does not make him a terrorist?

Were ha Muslim, that would be the "group" you are talking about?

That is some #%*+¥ logic!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[SgtRock]

17 minutes ago, DM07 said:

So let me get that straight: to be labeled "terrorist" you have to be part of a group?

 

No.

 

Being charged under '' Terrorism '' in the UK gets you a longer stretch in jail.

 

If he had been charged with plain old murder, 10 year stretch, out in 5, most likely.

 

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is better to have just a little knowledge before ranting 

[nausea]

The briefest internet search will confirm that the guy had significant mental problems, but it's important not to confuse mental illness, per se, with the legal defence of "Insanity". You cannot conflate one with the other - Mens Rea and all that.

[SheungWan]

24 minutes ago, nausea said:

The briefest internet search will confirm that the guy had significant mental problems, but it's important not to confuse mental illness, per se, with the legal defence of "Insanity". You cannot conflate one with the other - Mens Rea and all that.

 

Complete nonsense and obfuscation of course.

[nausea]

Why?

[DM07]

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

No.

 

Being charged under '' Terrorism '' in the UK gets you a longer stretch in jail.

 

If he had been charged with plain old murder, 10 year stretch, out in 5, most likely.

 

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is better to have just a little knowledge before ranting 

I was not talking about the law.

I was question the definition by the poster I quoted!

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is better to have comprehension skills before being condescending! 

Edited November 25, 2016 by DM07

[SgtRock]

19 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

The courts duty is to uphold the law, something which you appear not to understand. If the courts judge a person to be mentally ill then they are not convicted of premeditated murder. Not difficult for most to understand but others have an agenda and attempt to muddy the waters to the end.

 

The Courts duty is to uphold the Law ?

 

Really ?

 

Are you sure it is not the Police who are responsible for upholding and enforcing the Law.

 

It is then the  Courts duty to establish if someone is innocent or guilty of breaking the law.

 

Courts will never judge a persons mental capacity, it is not in their remit and they are not medical professionals.

 

For someone so vocal you have no understanding of the basics.

 

Yet you continually try to belittle the education levels of those that voted for a Brexit.

 

Facetime with a mirror is called for.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by SgtRock

[dunroaming]

16 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Those Brexiteers pushing the mental illness story wanted to cover up the guys political opinion which provides us with the background for motive, namely that he was a neo-Nazi Brexit supporter.

 

Once again yes I agree.   It seems that you cannot see the point I am making so there is no point in carrying on this debate

 

 

[SheungWan]

14 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

No.

 

Being charged under '' Terrorism '' in the UK gets you a longer stretch in jail.

 

If he had been charged with plain old murder, 10 year stretch, out in 5, most likely.

 

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is better to have just a little knowledge before ranting 

 

Indeed it is better:

'Mair, from Birstall, is being held in custody. His case is being handled under the “terrorism protocol” as part of a terror list before Mr Justice Saunders.'

[rott]

On 11/25/2016 at 1:55 AM, Grouse said:

 

He was said to be a nice normal chap by a neighbour

 

His house was clean and (excessively) tidy

 

He held down a steady job

 

He was Internet savvy

 

He researched everything well

 

He was fit to stand trial

 

What kind of mentally ill is he?

 

Frankly, you could accuse some people on here as being a bit nuts 

Out of curiosity what was his job and how long had he held it?

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, rott said:

Out of curiosity what was his job and how long had he held it?

 

Gardener, employed by the council.

 

I don't know how long he was employed; not known him long ?

[SheungWan]

On 11/24/2016 at 0:53 PM, Kiwiken said:

Ban guns so he can't shoot people. oh Yes the UK has the strictest laws on Firearms in the World. Maybe they should double ban firearms. 

 

He stabbed Cox to death. He stabbed her 15 times. In the heart, lungs and abdomen.

[elliss]

On 11/24/2016 at 3:33 PM, dunroaming said:

Loner who was radicalised by the far right nutjobs.  Not mentally ill, just easily manipulated, like so many others.

 

     A loner/loser ,  who   craved   attention .

[SheungWan]

10 minutes ago, elliss said:

 

     A loner/loser ,  who   craved   attention .

 

Had some contact with the National Front in the 1990s,  seen at a rally of the English Defence League. Links with far right groups in the US and South Africa.

Edited November 26, 2016 by SheungWan

[Khun Han]

On 11/24/2016 at 1:16 AM, SheungWan said:

He wasn't found to be mentally ill (which several Brexiteers on this forum were claiming). He was found guilty of premeditated murder.

 

He wasn't on trial for mental illness, he was on trial for murder. But he had a long history of mental illness .

[Khun Han]

On 11/24/2016 at 6:04 AM, SgtRock said:

 

His mental state was not on trial. 

 

His trial for murder was a formality. He was found guilty of murder as he should have been.

 

He should also face the death penalty. That is for another time.

 

No-one, from any side should be trying to make political capital out of this.

 

 

 

But some are, and it's just about as disgusting as political activism can get. Political ambulance chasing is what I call it.

[Khun Han]

On 11/24/2016 at 8:46 AM, SheungWan said:

 

I clearly understand the operation of the Courts better than you do. Assessment of mental capability to stand trial is not an arbitrary call by the judge depening on which way the wind blows.

 

You are either confused or being disingenuous. He was deemed mentally capable to stand trial. He has (so far) been assessed not to be criminally insane. He is mentally ill, and has a long history of mental illness, He sought professional help for his mental illness the day before he murdered Jo Cox (but was turned away and asked to come back later), and this one fact has infinitely more relevance on his state of mind at the time of his crime than any prevailing political climate.

[onthesoi]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

He sought professional help for his mental illness the day before he murdered Jo Cox (but was turned away and asked to come back later), 

 

He went to a 'spiritual healing centre' to ask about reflexology and meditation but they told him to come back later for a cup of tea.  Not sure that qualifies as seeking professional help.  And, what type of mental illness did he have beyond being a right wing, white supremacist and terrorist?