University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[Richard W]

On 06/12/2016 at 8:35 AM, rabas said:

 

The use of ever as in "I ever been to Scotland" is fairly common in Asia, Singaporeans say it too.

As weird as it sounds, ever is ever listed as an antonym of never.

 

http://englishthesaurus.net/antonym/never

http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/never

 

The word ever is a bit weird in English.  It's only secure usage is as a transformation (in some mannar) of never.  It has meant both 'always' and 'not never', so it's hardly surprising that it is little used.

 

Is that phrase quoted properly?  Syntactically, it ought to be "I've ever been to Scotland".

 

On 06/12/2016 at 8:39 AM, atyclb said:

an extremely common error is "I'm work" I'm live" and they dont seem to learn and correct the error.

The problem is that the border between verb and adjective is fuzzy at best in Thai.  It's been claimed that they can be distinguished by how the abstract noun is formed, with one prefix for verbs and another for adjectives, but some words can take either.

[Richard W]

6 hours ago, maewang99 said:

English for instance has only 5 vowel graphemes, because written English is specialized for reading and writing. 

Central Thai is only for speaking and listening.

I think that it's more the power of the printing press and classicism.  After all, Thai doesn't have 21 different symbols just for vowels.  Thai inherited a larger vowel set from the Indic languages than did English from Latin, and remember that Middle English was also 'only for speaking and listening'.

 

6 hours ago, maewang99 said:

you got my gist.  that's the important thing. but defining Kam Mueang as a dialect of Central Thai is rather silly. 

I'm not sure.  Kam Mueang looks set to merge into Siamese, as distinctive vocabulary is lost.  I'd be interested to know how aspiration works in Kam Mueang as a sociological variable - rule-based or by knowledge of Siamese.  If it's rule-based, there's no obstacle to Kam Mueang being absorbed into Siamese as opposed to simply dying out.

 

On a technical point, Kam Mueang lacks an army, let alone a navy.

[Loeilad]

On 12/6/2016 at 3:30 PM, GAZZPA said:

What? There are no versions of English. English is English. There are some slight differences on some words and some local slang but mostly it is purely accent, nothing more.

 

From what I observe thai people have a better grasp then the press would have you believe. Of course if you speak too fast then it can be a problem for some but generally its ok for basic things everyday.

 

However, neighbouring countries such as Singapore, Malaysia and particularly the Philippines are light years away with English language skills.

 

 

 

 

I think this statement shows a marked lack of prior research - the comments display a profound lack of knowledge of the English language and a large use of assumption.

[GAZZPA]

On December 7, 2016 at 0:09 PM, pookiki said:

It's not a matter of being argumentative, it is a matter of what one believes to be the most important issue that defines them as an individual. For some, it may be their nationality, for others it may be their ethnicity.  I consider myself a citizen of the world.  That is they way I stress that we all in the same boat on this planet.  At the same time, I am very proud of my ethnic heritage which is Irish - second generation Irish in the US. Potato famine Irish to be exact.  Why should you be offended about the way in which I define my own existence?   If you look at the situation in Burma with the Rohingya, the issue of 'self-indentification' is a major point of contention.  The Burmese government says 'Rohingya' don't exist. They are 'Bengalis'.  The 'Rohingya' say they have a right to self-identify. The Burmese Constitution defines the number of 'recognized' ethnic groups in Burma. Being a Rohingya isn't on the list -- so they don't exist.

 

If your consider the term "English' to be the way you want to self-identify and it is a term for you that only defines 'nationality', so be it.  Each one of us decides how we define our ethnicity/cultural heritage/nationality.  Let it be. 

I am not offend by how anybody defines themselves, why would I be? But I won't be told by you or anyone else that my identity as English is not valid or that my identity is confusing.

 

I have nothing else to say on this matter really, and I think you are being argumentative. I made my point clear a long time ago.

[atyclb]

5 hours ago, Richard W said:

The word ever is a bit weird in English.  It's only secure usage is as a transformation (in some mannar) of never.  It has meant both 'always' and 'not never', so it's hardly surprising that it is little used.

 

Is that phrase quoted properly?  Syntactically, it ought to be "I've ever been to Scotland".

 

The problem is that the border between verb and adjective is fuzzy at best in Thai.  It's been claimed that they can be distinguished by how the abstract noun is formed, with one prefix for verbs and another for adjectives, but some words can take either.

 

cool explanation thanx. if i ever knew that detailed explanation at an earlier time in my life i had surely forgotten.

 

another common thing they say   "i am girls"  even if a single girl says it.   although the border is fuzzy at best in thai dont people learn the rules of other languages??

 

also after someone corrects them they should be able to avoid that simple error.i had to learn new rules to read, write, speak thai as do many others.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

7 hours ago, Richard W said:

I think that it's more the power of the printing press and classicism.  After all, Thai doesn't have 21 different symbols just for vowels.  Thai inherited a larger vowel set from the Indic languages than did English from Latin, and remember that Middle English was also 'only for speaking and listening'.

 

I'm not sure.  Kam Mueang looks set to merge into Siamese, as distinctive vocabulary is lost.  I'd be interested to know how aspiration works in Kam Mueang as a sociological variable - rule-based or by knowledge of Siamese.  If it's rule-based, there's no obstacle to Kam Mueang being absorbed into Siamese as opposed to simply dying out.

 

On a technical point, Kam Mueang lacks an army, let alone a navy.

 

English has about 18 vowel symbols and many ways to represent them. Is this a small problem?

 

 

 

[soalbundy]

I wouldn't bash Thai's too much, i once sat opposite an Englishman who was writing a post card, he asked me if innit is spelled with two n's or one

[Shawn0000]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I wouldn't bash Thai's too much, i once sat opposite an Englishman who was writing a post card, he asked me if innit is spelled with two n's or one

 

I see no reason why it should have two n's but it does.  What is your point, by the way?

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/innit

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I see no reason why it should have two n's but it does.  What is your point, by the way?

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/innit

Oxford living dictionary. I sat there with my mouth open in horror, i didn't realize that standards had fallen so low. He also ordered a bottle of 'woh er' i had to translate to the waitress that he meant water, will we find woh er in the dictionary soon ? Ali G is alive and well

[Shawn0000]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Oxford living dictionary. I sat there with my mouth open in horror, i didn't realize that standards had fallen so low. He also ordered a bottle of 'woh er' i had to translate to the waitress that he meant water, will we find woh er in the dictionary soon ? Ali G is alive and well

 

There is quite a difference between an alternative pronunciation and an alternative contraction.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

There is quite a difference between an alternative pronunciation and an alternative contraction.

They both have one thing in common, they are both disgusting

[Richard W]

1 hour ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Ther ar hundrudz uv thozundz uv erruz like thoze in thu sistum.

I think you have two typos in there.  Did you mean "thouzundz" and "errurz"?

 

What's going to happen to the pronunciation "thare" (or however you spell it) of there?  What are you going to do about the stressed, or at least, unslurred, forms of form words?  What would be written "ov" exists.  Conversely, the unstressed form of are is "u" or "ur".  Have you thought through the articles?

[Dumbastheycome]

On 9/12/2016 at 8:56 PM, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Why should I take any advice from someone who is not willing to learn much anything? You choose not to answer questions (that --in truth-- you cannot answer), finding bogus reasons and try to demean anyone, finding more bogus reasons. Maybe, in a funny sort of a way, it is on-topic though. Do you have a printer? Is it working? Are you Thai? Teaching English?

Whoa!  To me  your  tirade  contains  valid  and invalid  content.

Again to me  most invalid is the proposal  that reading is an  essentil prt of  language. If so then how  to explain the  common and  sometimes exceptional successes  of the  illiterate?

Language is  about  communication  rather than some  measure  of  academically  measured demonstration  of  capacity.

Fluency  can be  acquired  without equivalent literacy.

The  acquisition of a  second  language is most  commonly  desired  for spoken communication at least initially.

I  have seen comments  such as the  "English"  language is  a  bastard language  etc.

The  reality is is that it is the   International  language. Most likely reason for that is that yes it is a  bastard language. As  such it is an internationally rapidaly adaptive and progressive  language despite the  critics  who  refer to the  purist origin  of such an "orphan " language.

Your item (8) is quite likely to be the  most  valid. The  sad  aspect  for  any  country  that devolves into a system that defers to that outcome invites the suppression  of  intellect due to the presumption that intelligence is  derived  from  wealth. Whereas the  evidence  commonly demonstrated is that despite those being able to  afford  the  academic acquisition of various " qualification) s " are too often inept in  capacity.

Educators  are the  product  of their  peers.

In  any field... who were the "qualified" peers?????????????????????

 

 

 

[soalbundy]

Scum floats to the surface, EnlightenedAtheist wants a chav dictionary

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Oxford living dictionary. I sat there with my mouth open in horror, i didn't realize that standards had fallen so low. He also ordered a bottle of 'woh er' i had to translate to the waitress that he meant water, will we find woh er in the dictionary soon ? Ali G is alive and well

Nothing to do with "standards" and you are referring to the glottal stop and well known  characteristic of pronunciation especially in British English.

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

Nothing to do with "standards" and you are referring to the glottal stop and well know  characteristic of pronunciation especially in British English

for me it has to do with standards, i wouldn't hold a conversation willingly with someone who cant speak properly, it shows a lack of self respect, when someone uses the 'word' innit i shut down.

[Rhys]

does not matter, sts and teacher will give the answers  out...so a valid test...555555. it is more the concept of discipline of study....need to work it... here..too.....and we have the do you know who my father is... I will void my bladder where ever I choose..even on myself..

[ivan96822]

OK, OK...Knock it off...

 

Same-same is valid in my books.

[ivan96822]

This is all semantics...

[ivan96822]

Semantics, Sukhumvit.

 

Semantics....And Chang.

[Loeilad]

12 hours ago, soalbundy said:

for me it has to do with standards, i wouldn't hold a conversation willingly with someone who cant speak properly, it shows a lack of self respect, when someone uses the 'word' innit i shut down.

There are several billion English speaking people who don't agree with you and might well consider you to be laughably out of touch.

[Khun Paul]

At the end of the day this discussion is useless and meaningless, as most of us know full well the Thai education system is flawed from the top down and they will not under any circumstances change to ensure their students improve unless they themselves can see kudos in doing so. Logic is not their strong point , never has been, so let us just sit on the sidelines and watch what used to be near the top of the ASEAN tree slide down to become third rate educationally and also internationally.

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

There are several billion English speaking people who don't agree with you and might well consider you to be laughably out of touch.

Yes, i agree, but i have certain standards of behaviour and i stick to them. I taught myself German 40 odd years ago with a girlfriend who spoke only high German (we lived in Bavaria) and a copy of 'The Pate ' in German. It took me several years to appreciate the soft beauty of the Bavarian dialect, i still have a slight Bavarian accent when i speak high German, but i frowned upon anyone who could only speak the dialect, someone only speaking Bavarian couldn't communicate with another German living in Hamburg only speaking platt deutsch. Language is about communicating and the more beautiful a language is the better the experience. It is also an important marker for their standard of education,although not always, and social standing, i come from a working class family but my parents were insistent that we spoke the 'queens English' free of accent, that isn't easy living in London. I find speaking to a 'chav' distressing and so i avoid it.

[rabas]

45 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

 

12 hours ago, soalbundy said:

for me it has to do with standards, i wouldn't hold a conversation willingly with someone who cant speak properly, it shows a lack of self respect, when someone uses the 'word' innit i shut down.

There are several billion English speaking people who don't agree with you and might well consider you to be laughably out of touch.

 

 

He does not capitalize his 'I's. No self esteem.  Innit funny?

 

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

He does not capitalize his 'I's. No self esteem.  Innit funny?

 

It shows my modesty.

[Artisi]

On Friday, December 09, 2016 at 0:10 AM, William C F Pierce said:

 

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

Not forgetting the use of the Oxford comma -- black, and white --

[Artisi]

17 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, i agree, but i have certain standards of behaviour and i stick to them. I taught myself German 40 odd years ago with a girlfriend who spoke only high German (we lived in Bavaria) and a copy of 'The Pate ' in German. It took me several years to appreciate the soft beauty of the Bavarian dialect, i still have a slight Bavarian accent when i speak high German, but i frowned upon anyone who could only speak the dialect, someone only speaking Bavarian couldn't communicate with another German living in Hamburg only speaking platt deutsch. Language is about communicating and the more beautiful a language is the better the experience. It is also an important marker for their standard of education,although not always, and social standing, i come from a working class family but my parents were insistent that we spoke the 'queens English' free of accent, that isn't easy living in London. I find speaking to a 'chav' distressing and so i avoid it.

Oh!, we are being bloody posh aren't we. (make sure you apply the correct upper- class accent when reading it)

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Artisi said:

Oh!, we are being bloody posh aren't we. (make sure you apply the correct upper- class accent when reading it)

I have stated that I come from a working class family, i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free. I presume you meant 'apply the correct upper-class accent when writing it, you are free to imagine whatever accent you wish when reading it. No need to be aggressive.

[scorecard]

Perhaps there's another point. The headline is:

 

"University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!"

 

So what was the writer of the headline really meaning?

 

- The 'quality' of English used by Thai and/or farang lecturers in the classroom? or

- The 'quality' of English held by the students in the classroom? Which could mean:

- Their ability to comprehend what the lecturer is saying?

- Their ability to respond verbally in English?

- Their ability to respond in written English?

 

- In most cases Thai (and foreign exchange students studying in Thailand or anywhere) are not expecting to be taught English skills, they know that they need to cope immediate / at first lecture with English, meaning subjects like engineering, business, etc.  

 

- Even if they are studying for a BA in English this would normally not be a course to learn to speak English, the content of the course is much more likely intended to study the history and overall development of the English language and the background intricacies of the language, etc.

 

In other words the students are expected to have developed good English skills before registering for courses taught in English.

 

On the other hand there are plenty of native speaker lecturers in many faculties of Thai universities. And there are also plenty of Thai lecturers who have studied abroad for long periods and have very strong English skills. And there are smaller numbers of Thai lecturers who have every possible level of English language abilities. In some cases the last group are assigned to each in English because of the depth of the subject knowledge, perhaps in science, etc., and in some such cases the university cannot find a lecturer with strong English capabilities.

 

- However several Thai universities do have an on campus English Language Institute (part of the actual university structure, not a language school from outside), which does have the intent of teaching / learning to read, comprehend, speak and write English. Generally these institutes have very highly qualified farang lecturers (in two cases I'm aware of both such institutes have 2 Ph.D. holders on staff). And unless it's recently changed these courses are very expensive and have quite small classes and a very small total number of classes.

 

So, bottom line, are Thai universities to blame for the overall level of English in Thailand? 

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, Loeilad said:

There are several billion English speaking people who don't agree with you and might well consider you to be laughably out of touch.

Another reason for not liking slang or lazy speech is that it simply doesn't sound nice. Michael Cains performance as a high class officer in the film Zulu is a case in point, for my ears at least, his speech in the film was vastly superior to his natural way of speaking when being interviewed. Society seems to have a propensity to gravitate towards the lowest denominator, why I don't know. People go to a great deal of trouble and expense to dress well in order to give a good impression of themselves ignoring the fact that ones manner of speaking will make a far greater impression in the negative as well as the positive innit.