Dual Thai/Aus citizen leaving on Aus passport

[groovyc]

Hi,

 

My son was born in Thailand five years ago and has always travelled in and out of Thailand on a Thai passport,

which expired recently (just after he entered/returned to Thailand). He is due to travel back to Australia (where he lives)

soon, and I need some advice on the possibility of using his Aussie passport to leave Thailand.

(please don't suggest or give advise on renewing his Thai passport, as I know how to do that -

even though there is a consent issue as I am in Australia at the moment.)

 

 

Note: The advice that has been given by immigration on two separate occasions have been:

 

1. You have to leave on the same passport as you entered, so no :  This doesn't sound right for Thai citizens as they have effectively completed

their journey/s when they returned to Thailand.

 

2. If he was born in Thailand, and never left the country before, he can use the overseas passport to leave (provide proof of Thai citizenship to make sure his stay was legal),

but if he enters again on the Aussie passport, the 30day limit will apply for him for that visit.

 

Any constructive advice, opinions, or accounts of personal experience will be appreciated.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, groovyc said:

1. You have to leave on the same passport as you entered, so no : 

That is the correct answer.

[FritsSikkink]

You have to leave on the same passport as you entered

[groovyc]

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That is the correct answer.

Thanks to both of you. I think there is a bit of a confusion here with farang travel (which my son is not).

 

I agree that if you are a foreigner, you are supposed to leave on the same passport as you entered.

(eg: I for one, have two foreign passports, but if I choose to use one on entering Thailand, I have to leave on the same)

The immigration, in fact, used to match the stamps when I used to live in Thailand a few years ago.

 

However, if you are a Thai citizen, you are by default "living in Thailand" and you start your journey when you leave

the country. Therefore, you have to enter on the same passport as you left.

I remember they used to match the stamps this way on my wife's passport.

It might seem a bit complicated if you are a Thai citizen born overseas, but in my son's case, he's got an even number

of stamps on his passport: ie. one entry for each exit (presumably next to each other).

This is based on the assumption that they don't (or can't) treat him as the same person despite carrying different passports.

Therefore, if you enter on a foreign passport the clock starts ticking even if you are actually a Thai national (consistent with advice #2).

 

My son has completed all his journeys on his Thai passport as mentioned above and back at square 1.

Therefore, specially if the above assumption is correct (he is treated as a different person), it follows from #2 that he should be

able to leave on the Aussie passport. This is my rationale, but I guess we need to call immigration again.

 

 

[stevenl]

If your son leaves on his Aussie passport he is considered Aussie, with therefore illegal entry.

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[groovyc]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

with therefore illegal entry.

He was born in Bangkok, mate. If he never made any of his trips in and out, he would have still been there.

(he would have needed a visa if he wasn't a Thai citizen though, which is why it's been advised to carry proof of citizenship.)

[Clamhua]

If you try to let him leave on his Aussie passport there will be no record of him entering Thailand as an Aussie...there might be some issue..

[Doiger]

Since all immigration is computerized now and most passports are biometric I think leaving on an Australian passport may cause problems for your son in the future.

 

my son has a U.K. And Thai passport and when I got him the U.K. Passport I was advised by several people that he must use the Thai passport to leave Thailand as dual nationality is not recognized here in Thailand, whether this is right or not, I don't know. 

 

If if it is true then possibly in the future your son will need to use his Australian passport every time he enters the country 

[ubonjoe]

47 minutes ago, groovyc said:

Thanks to both of you. I think there is a bit of a confusion here with farang travel (which my son is not).

 

The rule is the same for a Thai national.

You need to sort out the consent issue to get the passport. If the  problem is your consent that can be handled in Australia by having your consent notarized by the embassy or one of the consulates. 

[groovyc]

49 minutes ago, Doiger said:

I was advised by several people that he must use the Thai passport to leave Thailand as dual nationality is not recognized here in Thailand

Good point. I was hoping it may not be an issue for a minor, but letting the system "know" might mean he will have to make a choice when he turns 18...

 

52 minutes ago, Doiger said:

possibly in the future your son will need to use his Australian passport every time he enters the country 

To be honest, this is partly my intention. ie. whenever he visits Thailand, he'll be coming back in 30 days! Not because I think they'll strip him of his citizenship just like that, but just because he doesn't have a Thai passport.

[Doiger]

53 minutes ago, groovyc said:

Good point. I was hoping it may not be an issue for a minor, but letting the system "know" might mean he will have to make a choice when he turns 18...

 

To be honest, this is partly my intention. ie. whenever he visits Thailand, he'll be coming back in 30 days! Not because I think they'll strip him of his citizenship just like that, but just because he doesn't have a Thai passport.

 

I know you said on your original post that you don't want anyone to mention you getting a new Thai passport for your son but I think if you have time to do it then you should.

My son is 7 and I would not like to think that I did something in his early life that may stop him from having his own choice when he is older.

[IMA_FARANG]

A Thai national can enter Thailand even on an expired Thai passport.

The fact tht hw got a thai pasport at one time shows they accepted him as thai and therefore he was given a thai passport.

He can get a new Thai passport here in Thailand when his old thai passsport expites by renewing the old one at the main Thai passport office in Bangkok which is located near Changwattana

Yes it would be wise to have some proof of his Thai identity in case h is asked expecially if he looks like an Aussie and doesn't speak Thai.

But if he has a Thai I.D. card, which he is entitled to, that would be enough.

Actually his old expired Thai passport should be proof.

if he was once issued a Thai passport he was accepted as a Thai national at that time.

He will not lose his Thai nationality unles he deliberately renounces it.

Every now and then there is a Thai male who renounces his dual Thai citizenship and chooses hi other nationality.

This is almost always males because as Thai males they may are  expected to do their required national service and reqister for the military draft lottery.

 

 

[stevenl]

He was born in Bangkok, mate. If he never made any of his trips in and out, he would have still been there.
(he would have needed a visa if he wasn't a Thai citizen though, which is why it's been advised to carry proof of citizenship.)

If...
But he made the trips.

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[groovyc]

12 hours ago, stevenl said:

If...
But he made the trips.

I know. In essence, that's the difference between the current situation and #2 in my original post.

 

I was just replying to this comment.

15 hours ago, stevenl said:

with therefore illegal entry.

ie. he never entered. He was born.

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, groovyc said:

I know. In essence, that's the difference between the current situation and #2 in my original post.

 

I was just replying to this comment.

ie. he never entered. He was born.

So he can not leave on his Aussie passport.

[groovyc]

12 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

A Thai national can enter Thailand even on an expired Thai passport.

Good point. In fact, this is true for any country. A citizen only has to prove his citizenship to enter; having a passport is just the

easiest and streamlined way of doing it.

 

Exiting is less of a "right" issue, but more of making sure the passenger has the correct documents once he leaves, I guess.

Thus the expired passport might work if one can show they have a valid foreign passport for travel purposes...?

 

In Australia, for example, I am pretty sure it would work even though you might get into some trouble - because

its the person that leaves/enters the country, not the passport. Whether the Thai system sees it that way, is another way

to put the question that I'm asking.

 

 

13 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

Yes it would be wise to have some proof of his Thai identity in case h is asked.....

Actually his old expired Thai passport should be proof.

 

You're right. This proof was requested by immigration if using a foreign passport to exit.

(it was nothing to do with renewal, even though it would be needed for that, as well as the consent from both parents.)

[SaintLouisBlues]

14 hours ago, groovyc said:

Good point. I was hoping it may not be an issue for a minor, but letting the system "know" might mean he will have to make a choice when he turns 18...

 

To be honest, this is partly my intention. ie. whenever he visits Thailand, he'll be coming back in 30 days! Not because I think they'll strip him of his citizenship just like that, but just because he doesn't have a Thai passport.

And of course it will be impossible for him to get one while he is in Thailand to use on the next trip

[groovyc]

10 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

And of course it will be impossible for him to get one while he is in Thailand to use on the next trip

That's correct! As long as he is under 18 and doesn't have my consent.

[groovyc]

13 hours ago, Doiger said:

I would not like to think that I did something in his early life that may stop him from having his own choice when he is older.

More like "that may not let him pretend he wasn't a dual citizen" (noone knows unless you tell them; remember the Abhisit saga?), but I hear you

and am kind of inclined towards that solution.

[ubonjoe]

34 minutes ago, groovyc said:

That's correct! As long as he is under 18 and doesn't have my consent.

Not sure where you got the age on 18 from. He requires parental consent until he is over 20 years old to get a passport renewed.

Suggest you have a look here for info: http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

After the age of 20 he has a right to choose his nationality if he wants to according to the nationality act.

Not sure why you don't want him to have a Thai passport.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Renew thai passport, leave on that. Enter Australia with Australian passport. Shouldn't be a problem. Call the Aussie embassy and ask them how.


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[groovyc]

On 10/12/2016 at 3:36 PM, ubonjoe said:

Not sure where you got the age on 18 from.

Ok, 20 then it is. Doesn't make a difference at this stage as he is only 5.

 

On 10/12/2016 at 3:36 PM, ubonjoe said:

Not sure why you don't want him to have a Thai passport.

The answer is (partly) in the post you quoted. No Thai passport -> not allowed to stay more than 30 days -> coming back to where his father is.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, groovyc said:

The answer is (partly) in the post you quoted. No Thai passport -> not allowed to stay more than 30 days -> coming back to where his father is.

 

As a minor, there would be no practical repercussions if he overstayed his visa exempt entry by a few years. Further, even if he entered on his Aussie passport, he still has dual Thai/Aussie nationality. If his mother, for instance, wished to ask for custody, it is quite likely a Thai court would grant her request. You overstate the control a lack of a Thai passport would give you over your son.

[groovyc]

5 hours ago, BritTim said:

You overstate the control a lack of a Thai passport would give you over your son.

Ok, now that you've let the cat out if the bag, I must admit you are right. Note however, that perceived control is sometimes more important than actual control...