9 months of visa exemptions back to back after 2 year overstay

[jspill]

While it may be luck based, I thought it'd be helpful to post a trip report of my recent visa runs for the unmarried, under 50 digital nomads out there, who work online, i.e. don't qualify for a work permit because they aren't working in Thailand for a Thai entity. 

 

Been living in Thailand since 2009 on tourist visas but this is focused on 2016 since various changes like overstay blacklisting coming into effect, too many back to back visa exemptions raising an alert, etc.

 

So I departed Feb 19 2016, with a 661 day overstay. Just before blacklisting came into effect. UK passport, 29 year old caucasian male.  

 

 

Re-entered on visa exemption Feb 27, was asked if I had an onward ticket. I did.

 

 

Extended stay until Apr 26.

 

 

Re-entered on visa exemption May 19, no questions asked. Extended stay to Jul 17.

 

 

Re-entered Aug 3, no questions.

 

 

Extended stay until Oct 1.

 

 

Re-entered Oct 19, no questions. At this point I'd already done 6 months on visa exemptions, but still got another one. Departed Nov 10

 

 

Got approved for a tourist visa in Saigon, no questions.

 

 

They didn't notice it on re-entry Nov 28, and gave me another visa exemption, no questions.

 

 

Extended stay until Jan 26.

 

 

Will re-enter using the tourist visa on Feb 12.

[NanLaew]

Some may find this encouraging but as in most things in Thailand, "Your experience may vary". When they 'missed' the TR visa on your last entry, did you enter the visa number on the Arrival portion of the TM6 card?

[jspill]

Yes I entered it on the departure card, still missed it though.

 

There was half a blank page, followed by the one page Vietnam visa sticker, so he only saw that I guess.

[maewang99]

does it really matter if we are working for a Thai entity or not? when we use a computer to make money we are not taking a job away from a Thai, I'm sure.... unless we are buying and selling stuff.. and even then we aren't, not really.... 

on the other hand.... we can get into lots of trouble using a computer for anything, for money or otherwise, with or without a work permit.... and especially if it is ****not**** a Thai entity.

apparently now. quite. 



 

Edited December 11, 2016 by maewang99

[stevenl]

12 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

does it really matter if we are working for a Thai entity or not? when we use a computer to make money we are not taking a job away from a Thai, I'm sure.... unless we are buying and selling stuff.. and even then we aren't, not really.... 

on the other hand.... we can get into lots of trouble using a computer for anything, for money or otherwise, with or without a work permit.... and especially if it is ****not**** a Thai entity.

apparently now. quite. 



 

This thread is about something else.

 

If it matters or not is irrelevant, the law at han d and enforcement are relevant.

[maewang99]

they are being enforced.  by the law. and police visits.
 

it was the OP that mentioned whether we need a work permit on the internet or not.... not just my posting.

 

plus he's a Brit... and if the 'other thread' you're referring to is obliquely the BBC thing... you are correct.

  

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by maewang99

[jspill]

16 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

and it was the OP that mentioned whether we need a work permit on the internet or not.... not just my posting.

 

Yeah we don't need one for online work. I work remotely for an overseas company, I've explained that to immigration before and it's never been an issue.

 

I just mentioned it because it tends to be online workers that use tourist visas / exemptions.

Edited December 11, 2016 by jspill

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Consider yourself lucky!

 

Anyway, good info, thanks for sharing

[gilo]

Good to hear, jspill. Thanks for sharing. As someone with an extremely long overstay, I have never been questioned about it save for one time at Nong Khai when I was paying a 1-day overstay and the i/o simply remarked that I had a long previous overstay and then asked for the 500 baht overstay fine. It does seem to be rather random or based on some algorithm that is known only to the Thai authorities lol. 

[jgold]

Great dude!! Wish you best of luck. But don't push your luck. Change that passport before you come under scrutiny by the immigration at airport. Yes they can link all your passports including the old one BUT they don't look most of the times when they see a new passport.

 

Another thing at one point the computer will flag you so be prepared for when that day comes. I lived there on a mix of tourist visas and ed visas for 5 yrs. Now I am in Saigon cooling off for 6 months before I return because I was flagged last time I went in, I was dumb to let my passport fill up with Thai stamps and visas.

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by jgold

[JackThompson]

56 minutes ago, jgold said:

Great dude!! Wish you best of luck. But don't push your luck. Change that passport before you come under scrutiny by the immigration at airport. Yes they can link all your passports including the old one BUT they don't look most of the times when they see a new passport.

 

Another thing at one point the computer will flag you so be prepared for when that day comes. I lived there on a mix of tourist visas and ed visas for 5 yrs. Now I am in Saigon cooling off for 6 months before I return because I was flagged last time I went in, I was dumb to let my passport fill up with Thai stamps and visas.

 

Good advice on the new passport. 

The irony is, all the money you are now spending in Saigon could have been spent in Thailand.  Instead of policing workplaces for illegal-workers, they apply some sort of mystery formulas to people on entry - and cost themselves who knows how much in foreign-currency transfers.   Even those who don't take much time out-of-country are still spending significant funds on visa-runs, which they would much prefer to spend at a Thai immigration office. 

 

And/or imagine all the tax-revenues Thailand could accrue if people with non-capital-intensive businesses, not requiring local-hires when all income and business-activity offshore, could sensibly incorporate here, in exchange for a visa-solution. 

[sometimewoodworker]

Quote

Will re-enter using the tourist visa on Feb 12.

There is no guarantee that the IO will not void the visa as you have entered after it was issued. 

So be prepared with a ticket and enough cash to qualify for a visa exempt entry. 

Worst case you could be refused entry. 

I hope that you will be able to use the visa but you need to be prepared for the worst. 

 

Do do not be tempted to use DMK there is a much greater chance there of problems than at BKK.

Edited December 11, 2016 by sometimewoodworker

[jpinx]

Pushing the bounds of what the regulations are trying to control only makes things tighten up every time they are revised.  Such behaviour is unforgiveable when there are options which are totally non-contentious and will not raise an eyebrow anywhere.  Such selfish behaviour is making everyone else's life difficult.

[seancbk]

Thanks for the details Jspill.

My story is similar.  Been here in Bangkok since 2008.  First 2 years were on multi non B visa, then I started using Tourist or visa exempt entries.  

I pretty much only use DMK as I go to stay with family in Macau using AirAsia.

 

I've almost never had an onward/outbound flight booked, and I've never been asked for one.   Except a couple of times by AirAsia staff in Macau,  I just told them I live in Bangkok and that was enough.

I've almost never carried more than a few hundred baht when flying into Bangkok, but never been asked to show funds.

I've never been asked what I do here, or had any issues coming back into the country.

I've filled up my 3rd passport, with the 4th having been applied for recently, so next time I travel it will be on a clean passport.

No idea why some people seem to have so much trouble, but perhaps it's how they look or act?     I dress smart, I'm slim and I look young (I'm 49), plus I smile and use a bit of polite Thai when interacting with the IOs.    




 

[patrick1968]

thank you for the inf,,nice 

[LivinLOS]

On 12/11/2016 at 9:00 AM, jspill said:

 

Yeah we don't need one for online work. I work remotely for an overseas company, I've explained that to immigration before and it's never been an issue.

 

I just mentioned it because it tends to be online workers that use tourist visas / exemptions.

 

Yeah I mentioned it to the hairdresser the other day.. he didnt mind either.. 

 

Go mention it to the labor dept.. The ones responsible for the law.. The same ones who have repeatedly said it is required. 

 

I have no problem with you breaking the law, but dont spread the false information that its not the law, at least recognize that fact. 

[jacob29]

On 12/23/2016 at 2:42 PM, LivinLOS said:

 

Yeah I mentioned it to the hairdresser the other day.. he didnt mind either.. 

 

Go mention it to the labor dept.. The ones responsible for the law.. The same ones who have repeatedly said it is required. 

 

I have no problem with you breaking the law, but dont spread the false information that its not the law, at least recognize that fact. 

That may be so, but as there is no visa available for such a person, it's not entirely unreasonable that people choose the closest available visa. They can't get a work visa (not a Thai company, and can't qualify as one without employing Thai people). So if the visa itself doesn't recognize it as work, it's a rather grey area. If they can prove the company you're working for is operating illegally in Thailand (dodging tax), that's a separate matter, but I hardly think that applies.

 

If the person stays for more than 180 days in one year, that's an entirely different kettle of fish. I believe in many countries including Thailand, you're liable for tax on income worldwide. I'm sure all the retirees remotely managing rental properties ('working in Thailand'), duly submit tax returns for foreign income to comply with the law.

[Rc2702]

I got a few questions on my arrival 2 weeks ago. I was tired and had a flight to catch to KK.  I pulled out the phone showed my next flight and was stamped through without answering either question. You have wife here? You work here? 

 

[Rc2702]

On 11/12/2016 at 7:31 AM, jpinx said:

Pushing the bounds of what the regulations are trying to control only makes things tighten up every time they are revised.  Such behaviour is unforgiveable when there are options which are totally non-contentious and will not raise an eyebrow anywhere.  Such selfish behaviour is making everyone else's life difficult.

A lot of other groups are to blame for any difficulties you may experience. Digital nomads are not to blame given they are a fairly new phenomenon in the work place.

[LivinLOS]

13 hours ago, jacob29 said:

That may be so, but as there is no visa available for such a person, it's not entirely unreasonable that people choose the closest available visa. They can't get a work visa (not a Thai company, and can't qualify as one without employing Thai people). So if the visa itself doesn't recognize it as work, it's a rather grey area. If they can prove the company you're working for is operating illegally in Thailand (dodging tax), that's a separate matter, but I hardly think that applies.

 

If the person stays for more than 180 days in one year, that's an entirely different kettle of fish. I believe in many countries including Thailand, you're liable for tax on income worldwide. I'm sure all the retirees remotely managing rental properties ('working in Thailand'), duly submit tax returns for foreign income to comply with the law.

 

1) Thailand determines taxation based on a physical presence test.. As well as a 180 day for 'income' brought into the country in the same year its earnt. Your just guessing at this arent you ?/

 

2) Saying theres no visa so they can just break the law is ridiculous logic.. Theres no drug dealer visa either, does that mean its ok then ?? If there is no class available then they dont want it to happen. 

 

3) Lastly there clearly IS a visa for those who wish to come here and work.. Its a B visa.. You can either set it up yourself and get a work permit, or get an umbrella company to handle it for you, for a fairly reasonable amount. The base fact is people simply want to avoid the requirement of Thai taxation on work performed while in the country and cheat Thailand out of the revenue it demands. 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

3) Lastly there clearly IS a visa for those who wish to come here and work.. Its a B visa.. You can either set it up yourself and get a work permit, or get an umbrella company to handle it for you, for a fairly reasonable amount. The base fact is people simply want to avoid the requirement of Thai taxation on work performed while in the country and cheat Thailand out of the revenue it demands. 

 

The umbrella company I looked at charges a ridiculous amount - far in excess of the taxes.  There would be no way to compete in the global market with a 33% charge on Net for invoicing and a visa.

 

If it were simple and relatively inexpensive to set up a small company serving non-Thai customers and using non-Thai staff here, I estimate 100K people with offshore incomes would come to Thailand and pay taxes within 2 years of the opening of that opportunity, contributing Billions of Baht in offshore capital spending, plus taxes. 

 

Not holding my breath, though.

[billd766]

16 hours ago, jacob29 said:

That may be so, but as there is no visa available for such a person, it's not entirely unreasonable that people choose the closest available visa. They can't get a work visa (not a Thai company, and can't qualify as one without employing Thai people). So if the visa itself doesn't recognize it as work, it's a rather grey area. If they can prove the company you're working for is operating illegally in Thailand (dodging tax), that's a separate matter, but I hardly think that applies.

 

If the person stays for more than 180 days in one year, that's an entirely different kettle of fish. I believe in many countries including Thailand, you're liable for tax on income worldwide. I'm sure all the retirees remotely managing rental properties ('working in Thailand'), duly submit tax returns for foreign income to comply with the law.

 

Inaccurate information I am afraid after 180 days. In the UK ANY income earned in the UK is subject to taxation when it goes past the tax threshold and as the UK and Thailand have a mutual tax treaty UK earnings will be taxed in the UK and Thailand earnings will be taxed in Thailand income  (if declared) will be taxed in Thailand.

 

AFAIK only the US taxes its citizens on any income worldwide and if the tax on Thai earnings is paid in Thailand then you may be able to offset that against you US taxes. However as I am not a US citizen I am not too sure of that bit. So you need to talk to a US citizen who pays Thai and US taxes to get the truth.

[MAZ3]

I didn't use the 2nd entree on my double Tourist visa last year, when I entered on a visa exempt for a quick trip. No problems when I returned and used the 2nd part a few months later.

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

The umbrella company I looked at charges a ridiculous amount - far in excess of the taxes.  There would be no way to compete in the global market with a 33% charge on Net for invoicing and a visa.

 

If it were simple and relatively inexpensive to set up a small company serving non-Thai customers and using non-Thai staff here, I estimate 100K people with offshore incomes would come to Thailand and pay taxes within 2 years of the opening of that opportunity, contributing Billions of Baht in offshore capital spending, plus taxes. 

 

Not holding my breath, though.

 

So you think 

 

Taxes

Social security

Health cover

Office space

Lawyers to handle everything

 

At 30% is expensive ?? It costs me 10s of 1000s of GBP to do the same.. And I compete just fine in the global market !! 

 

The fact you know it exists, but simply dont want to pay the price.. Shows exactly the moral stance of so many of the 'nomad movement'.. In life there is a social contract, of which taxes are a part.. Thai kids dont need an education I guess ???

[JackThompson]

37 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

So you think 

 

Taxes

Social security

Health cover

Office space

Lawyers to handle everything

 

At 30% is expensive ?? It costs me 10s of 1000s of GBP to do the same.. And I compete just fine in the global market !! 

 

The fact you know it exists, but simply dont want to pay the price.. Shows exactly the moral stance of so many of the 'nomad movement'.. In life there is a social contract, of which taxes are a part.. Thai kids dont need an education I guess ???

 

I'm not a nomad, I am a business-owner, and don't need most of that (I doubt nomads do either).  I just need to be able to take out a business-license for a small company whose operations are offshore.  Most nomads also need some sort of B-visa + work-permit as well - that's it. 

 

I'd much rather pay for Thailand's development than put money into the USA tax-system, but I Can't under the existing rules.  Even if you take all my income off the table, it still cannot take a 30% hit on NET income.  That's insane.

Edited December 26, 2016 by JackThompson

[jacob29]

On 12/26/2016 at 9:17 AM, LivinLOS said:

 

1) Thailand determines taxation based on a physical presence test.. As well as a 180 day for 'income' brought into the country in the same year its earnt. Your just guessing at this arent you ?/

 

2) Saying theres no visa so they can just break the law is ridiculous logic.. Theres no drug dealer visa either, does that mean its ok then ?? If there is no class available then they dont want it to happen. 

 

3) Lastly there clearly IS a visa for those who wish to come here and work.. Its a B visa.. You can either set it up yourself and get a work permit, or get an umbrella company to handle it for you, for a fairly reasonable amount. The base fact is people simply want to avoid the requirement of Thai taxation on work performed while in the country and cheat Thailand out of the revenue it demands. 

1) Not clear what you're asking. If you're in Thailand for more than 180 days, you are considered a resident for tax purposes. Have read this from multiple sources, it's possible those sources are wrong, but it's a common rule in other countries, so I have little doubt as to the accuracy.

 

Notwithstanding tax treaties if you're already paying tax in another country (I thought this would be self-evident though, otherwise you would cop double taxation).

 

2) I did open with 'that may be so' (e.g. you're breaking the law). Every type of visa (including the B visa you mentioned), requires documents from the Thai company you're working with, in Thailand. So when someone states get the right visa, quite literally there is no visa. Incorporate a company in Thailand, is something quite different from 'get the right visa'.

 

For a digital nomad who might visit a dozen countries in a year, are you suggesting they incorporate a company in each country? Come on, that's absurd. The law is thoroughly lagging though, it's one of those things that falls between the gaps. Does it make that person a robber baron cheating countries of tax revenue? Maybe, probably,  that's not really what I'm talking about though. There are a lot of people generating passive income from assets that fall into the same category of tax cheat, even with a legit visa, but I don't hear you jumping up and down about them. There needs to be some consistency, they'll get there in time I think.

[jacob29]

To clarify by example, if someone is working 10 months in their home country (and paying tax on their full year income), but spend 2 months of the year in Thailand (continuing to work), they are presumably breaking the law in equal measure. I think it unreasonable to say they're robbing Thailand of tax income. There are a couple of issues at play, what I'm saying is for the casual nomad (who only comes for brief periods), there is no visa. They would do well to create a visa targeting this type of tourist.

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, jacob29 said:

1) Not clear what you're asking. If you're in Thailand for more than 180 days, you are considered a resident for tax purposes. Have read this from multiple sources, it's possible those sources are wrong, but it's a common rule in other countries, so I have little doubt as to the accuracy.

 

Yes Thailand has a 180 day tax rule.. But Thailand only taxes you on money earnt and remitted to Thailand that year.. Thailand doesnt tax on worldwide income, only income brought into Thailand (a rule written by wealthy Thais no doubt). So as long as you only bring in savings.. Money earnt prior years.. Its not taxable.. Even once you are tax resident.. Strange as that seems. 

 

I have no idea how that works in practice if you co mingle earnings and accounts.. How is this dollar the one you made in 1997 and this dollar the one you made this year ?? 

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, jacob29 said:

For a digital nomad who might visit a dozen countries in a year, are you suggesting they incorporate a company in each country? Come on, that's absurd. The law is thoroughly lagging though, it's one of those things that falls between the gaps. 

 

It doesnt fall between the gaps.. It breaks the law.. 

 

How about only go and work in countries you can go and work in legally ?? How about not breaking the countries obvious and known laws ?? How about paying the taxes, create the jobs, and pay the costs that the countries demand for you to be welcomed and and work within them.. 

 

I was involved in a few companies over the last 10 years.. One startup I funded I put half a million quid in, valued it at a mil, and gave 49% to 2 people to manage it, a job I could do from Thailand but legally couldnt do without Thai incoorporation issues.. I paid a valuation of 490k GBP to remain legal.. This year I wanted to start a company, but because of Thailands tax laws, I flew to europe, incorporated it there and set up 2 offices there, spent my entire summer there making it work, employed a manager to do my day to day duties.. And then came back to Thailand. I probably spent north of 60k GBP which I had no need to do, direct from my pocket simply to be legal.. Now I dont answer a phone, create an invoice, or talk to a client until I leave Thailand.. Not one !! Thats the rules they want, so thats how I engineer it. 

 

Why is it I can pay 10s of 1000s of GBP to precisely stick to the letter of the law but you feel its absurd ?? That its 'lagging' what you wish to do ?? 

 

Its a case of either obey the law or leave.. Its not a case of saying 'its not clear' the law is 'lagging'.. There's countries with laws I dont like,  so I dont go there.. Thats the choice. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, jacob29 said:

To clarify by example, if someone is working 10 months in their home country (and paying tax on their full year income), but spend 2 months of the year in Thailand (continuing to work), they are presumably breaking the law in equal measure. I think it unreasonable to say they're robbing Thailand of tax income. There are a couple of issues at play, what I'm saying is for the casual nomad (who only comes for brief periods), there is no visa. They would do well to create a visa targeting this type of tourist.

 

The very fact 'they' havent made that kind of visa.. And 'they' enabled BOI companies to do it with a 2k USD a month minimum.. Kind of says the level 'they' have decided they feel is right.. That same level which nomads squawk at when in reality its pennies.. Thailand has said you can come and freelance from here online, this is the price and thats the tax revenue they want.. I am sure that will also get a 'thats absurd'... 

 

And thats the genuine short term traveller.. But go look around the nomad hubs.. A huge percentage are not moving on, they are moving in.. Nomads renting apartments in 6 months chunks, and buying vehicles.. Nomads asking about how to open bank accounts.. They are not nomadic, they are just underpricing western rivals, by breaking the social contract and living in developing countries to 'bootstrap' and undercut those who do it legally. This is the new face of work for the millennium ?? This is the social model of change ??