Forum turned upside down?

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

At least the Haredim aren't a political detail in the Israeli political landscape. They count for almost 10% of the total Israeli population.

Referring to 'Taliban' is rather misplaced if you consider the long history of Haredi opposition to the creation of the State of Israel.

Furthermore any alliance with the growing Arab Israeli population of 20% could be decisive for any future elections. Both groups have high birth rates compared to the more secular groups...



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This specific sect represents a minuscule element within the whole of ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel. The "Taliban" moniker is derisively used as a reference to this sect, not all ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel. Most ultra-orthodox Jews (again, apart from a specific sect) are not really into an alliance with Arabs as you fantasize, quite the opposite.

[happy Joe]

Slowly but surely, Jewish population of Israel are abandoning the Western civilizations in favor of archaic religious precepts peculiar to this region.

For me Netanyahu is cousin of Bashar. Not you ?

[Jingthing]

27 minutes ago, happy Joe said:

Slowly but surely, Jewish population of Israel are abandoning the Western civilizations in favor of archaic religious precepts peculiar to this region.

For me Netanyahu is cousin of Bashar. Not you ?

Peculiar post. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

your twisting and playing the usual "card" is not justified JT. Enoon stated a wellknown fact. whether you like it or not.

In the context of this thread, my point was spot on.

Send a memo when a Jewish "Taliban" anything like the actual Taliban actually controls Israel.

As in -- NEVER. 

[Naam]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In the context of this thread, my point was spot on.

Send a memo when a Jewish "Taliban" anything like the actual Taliban actually controls Israel.

As in -- NEVER. 

you are trying to play the same irrelevant card again by twisting and misquoting.

 

-"Taliban" was mentioned in the topic quoting "euronews" by the Right Honourable Thaivisaforum Administrator Webfact.

 

-Thaivisaforum member quoted a fact by posting

 

Quote

Didn't Islam crib the food rules, dress/appearance codes and attitude to women from Judaism?

 

case closed!

 

 

[katana]

8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

...I am not a supporter of Islam per se; I am a supporter of freedom of religion...

Since Islam means 'submission' and seeks to dominate and push out other religions replacing everything with Sharia law, that seems a somewhat contradictory stance to take.

[7by7]

 

14 hours ago, katana said:

23 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

I am not a supporter of Islam per se; I am a supporter of freedom of religion......

Since Islam means 'submission' and seeks to dominate and push out other religions replacing everything with Sharia law, that seems a somewhat contradictory stance to take.

 

Believing in freedom of religion does not mean beliving in any particular religion. I was raised a Catholic, but am now an atheist. However, I still firmly believe in the freedom of anyone to hold to their own beliefs.

 

Islam means submission to the will of God.

 

Which is the central teaching of all three Abrahamic religions; Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

 

All three religions have rules, or laws if you prefer, which followers are expected to adhere to. All three religions have multiple sects, some of which apply these rules far more strictly than others.

 

Judaism is an exception in one respect as, unlike Christianity and Islam, it is not a proselytising religion and so does not actively seek converts, though it will, of course, accept them.

 

Unfortunately, all three religions have in the past used violence and terrorism to achieve their aims. Jewish terrorism has virtually ceased since the establishment of the state of Israel, but both Christian and Islamic terrorist still operate today.

 

I accept, and always have, that for us in the West Islamic terrorism is a greater threat than Christian terrorism; unless you live in some Southern USA states and believe in the right of a woman to choose abortion!

 

All this has been discussed in depth before, and is way off this topic. If you wish to discuss it further I suggest you start a topic in Outside the Box.

[Ulysses G.]

On 12/17/2016 at 3:01 AM, Morch said:

 

I get it that almost any remotely related topic will be used to present your pro-Muslim agenda. That is a given. Still doesn't make for a particularly honest posting - using this specific picture, knowing it is not representative, and making a hyperbolic claim that it may be so in the future. May I suggest that your usual tirade on the evils of posters going on against Muslims is off topic?

 

 

You said it all with one sentence, "The picture posted relates to a specific, tiny and controversial sect within the ultra-orthodox Jewish community."  It has nothing to do with the OP. 

[Stargeezr]

These people could be  either  men  or  women,  and  that  may  be  how  a lot  of  rebels can escape  Aleppo,  dress  in Burkas  and  head  out  with  the general population.

  I am told that  the two  people in  the  photo are  women,  but  unless  I took  the  picture or  knew  that women  in Israel  also wear  clothes  that absolutely  de  humanize  them  like the two  in the  picture,  I  think  it  is hard  to prove  or  identify  the  two  as  men  or  women.

  In  Canada  I seen  one who  had to  show  her Identification,  as  the  bank  employee was worried that  the  person,  could be  a robber  as  the  bank  had  been  robbed  the  day before  and everyone  was  on heightened  alert.

Geezer

[Morch]

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

Believing in freedom of religion does not mean beliving in any particular religion. I was raised a Catholic, but am now an atheist. However, I still firmly believe in the freedom of anyone to hold to their own beliefs.

 

Islam means submission to the will of God.

 

Which is the central teaching of all three Abrahamic religions; Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

 

All three religions have rules, or laws if you prefer, which followers are expected to adhere to. All three religions have multiple sects, some of which apply these rules far more strictly than others.

 

Judaism is an exception in one respect as, unlike Christianity and Islam, it is not a proselytising religion and so does not actively seek converts, though it will, of course, accept them.

 

Unfortunately, all three religions have in the past used violence and terrorism to achieve their aims. Jewish terrorism has virtually ceased since the establishment of the state of Israel, but both Christian and Islamic terrorist still operate today.

 

I accept, and always have, that for us in the West Islamic terrorism is a greater threat than Christian terrorism; unless you live in some Southern USA states and believe in the right of a woman to choose abortion!

 

All this has been discussed in depth before, and is way off this topic. If you wish to discuss it further I suggest you start a topic in Outside the Box.

 

You talk about "Jewish terrorism", but what you reference, apparently, was not usually carried out in the name of religious beliefs, but rather political ones. Not that is quite on topic, which is not terrorism, but hey - if you can sneak in another "sounds about right" bit, why not, eh?

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

These people could be  either  men  or  women,  and  that  may  be  how  a lot  of  rebels

can escape  Aleppo,  dress  in Burkas  and  head  out  with  the general population.

  I am told that  the two  people in  the  photo are  women,  but  unless  I took  the  picture

or  knew  that women  in Israel  also wear  clothes  that absolutely  de  humanize  them  like

the two  in the  picture,  I  think  it  is hard  to prove  or  identify  the  two  as  men  or  women.

  In  Canada  I seen  one who  had to  show  her Identification,  as  the  bank  employee was

worried that  the  person,  could be  a robber  as  the  bank  had  been  robbed  the  day

before  and everyone  was  on heightened  alert.

Geezer

 

The leader of this sect is a woman, and ultra-orthodox women are generally not encouraged (to put it mildly) by their spiritual leaders (often men) to join or practice her teachings. This is not how most women in Israel dress, not even Muslim or ultra-orthodox Jewish.

 

 

[7by7]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You talk about "Jewish terrorism", but what you reference, apparently, was not usually carried out in the name of religious beliefs, but rather political ones. Not that is quite on topic, which is not terrorism, but hey - if you can sneak in another "sounds about right" bit, why not, eh?

 

So are you saying that terrorism carried out for political purposes is not really terrorism and is acceptable to you?

 

Or is it just the terrorism carried out in the 1930s and 40s by groups such as Irgun with the aim of establishing a Jewish state which you find acceptable?

 

What do you call more current attacks by Jewish zealots, such as the so called 'Price tag' attacks and the stabbing attack on a Gay Pride event in 2015 by a Jewish zealot who had just finished a prison sentence for committing the same crime in 2005?

[7by7]

13 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

You said it all with one sentence, "The picture posted relates to a specific, tiny and controversial sect within the ultra-orthodox Jewish community."  It has nothing to do with the OP. 

 

Like Morch, you have ignored the fact that the picture was posted with a question and as an example of extreme Orthodox views.

 

Will you, unlike Morch and Jingthing, tell us what your opinion is of the government enforced dress codes for women becoming more common in Israel?

[Andaman Al]

On 12/17/2016 at 11:02 PM, Jingthing said:

In the context of this thread, my point was spot on.

Send a memo when a Jewish "Taliban" anything like the actual Taliban actually controls Israel.

As in -- NEVER. 

It was the Jewish press that labelled them the sect of the 'Taliban Mother'. It was not non-Israeli, non-Jewish press, quite the opposite.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect

[Morch]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

So are you saying that terrorism carried out for political purposes is not really terrorism and is acceptable to you?

 

Or is it just the terrorism carried out in the 1930s and 40s by groups such as Irgun with the aim of establishing a Jewish state which you find acceptable?

 

What do you call more current attacks by Jewish zealots, such as the so called 'Price tag' attacks and the stabbing attack on a Gay Pride event in 2015 by a Jewish zealot who had just finished a prison sentence for committing the same crime in 2005?

 

I'm disappointed at the low level trolling exhibited, as I know you're capable of much better than this. Nowhere did I express anything that amounts to terrorism, of any kind, being acceptable. That's just a pathetic attempt to put words in my mouth. The time frame referenced corresponded to that mentioned in your post ("...Jewish terrorism has virtually ceased since the establishment of the state of Israel"). The so-called "Price Tag" attacks were not denied - and though perpetrators are usually religious, the context can often be said to be political. The two attack on the Gay Pride event were religiously motivated, but they are far from being a prevalent occurrence - a good indication is that one can specifically reference them without trouble. Try harder, but perhaps on another topic - this one isn't about terrorism.

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

Like Morch, you have ignored the fact that the picture was posted with a question and as an example of extreme Orthodox views.

 

Will you, unlike Morch and Jingthing, tell us what your opinion is of the government enforced dress codes for women becoming more common in Israel?

 

And again, you fail to recognize that the picture used does not even represent "extreme orthodox views", but rather those of a minuscule sect that is rejected by the "mainstream" extreme orthodox view. The only reason you used it was because of shock value. The last line in your post is disingenuous - my views was expressed, and/or posts I agree with liked.

[Jingthing]

Face it. The Israel demonization agenda is all about wild exaggeration of anything negative that has ever happened in Israel, trivial or not, with the intent of denying the very legitimacy of that state. Just happens to be the only nation in the world with a majority of Jewish people. Just a coincidence. Sure thing.

Now I might demonize Putin but the intent is never to suggest that the Russian nation doesn't legitimately exist.

[stevenl]

Face it. The Israel demonization agenda is all about wild exaggeration of anything negative that has ever happened in Israel, trivial or not, with the intent of denying the very legitimacy of that state. Just happens to be the only nation in the world with a majority of Jewish people. Just a coincidence. Sure thing.

Now I might demonize Putin but the intent is never to suggest that the Russian nation doesn't legitimately exist.

As usual anything negative about Israel is turned into Israel demonization by you. Your reactions here make Israel demonization inevitable.

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[Naam]

49 minutes ago, Morch said:

"...Jewish terrorism has virtually ceased since the establishment of the state of Israel"

that's a matter of perspective

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Naam said:

that's a matter of perspective

 

That was the perspective presented by @7by7, and to which I was responding. And again, this is hardly what the topic is about. This bit was just another argumentative nonsense by the aforementioned poster.

[Naam]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

That was the perspective presented by @7by7, and to which I was responding. And again, this is hardly what the topic is about. This bit was just another argumentative nonsense by the aforementioned poster.

thanks for the clarification. but it doesn't matter by whom it was presented. my comment applies.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Naam said:

thanks for the clarification. but it doesn't matter by whom it was presented. my comment applies.

 

Fair enough, but then this is not a topic about terrorism. If you or the other poster wish to start a discussion dealing with the subject there are other sections in the forum for that. I hereby confirm my future attendance.

[Scott]

I have no idea how a topic about a change in the dress code can morph into a discussion of world politics and terrorism, but seems to have done so.  

 

I suggest you get back on topic and stay there.   Continued nonsensical trolling will result in suspensions.   Full stop.  

[Thorgal]

 
And again, you fail to recognize that the picture used does not even represent "extreme orthodox views", but rather those of a minuscule sect that is rejected by the "mainstream" extreme orthodox view. The only reason you used it was because of shock value. The last line in your post is disingenuous - my views was expressed, and/or posts I agree with liked.

Religious ideology is shared by the many Jewish conservatives and/or orthodox factions.

Pinpointing a small group for their typical clothing is not really relevant to the topic.

It's well known that Netanyahu made during latest pre-elections some deals with the Israeli orthodox community in terms of coalition and future applications like introducing the Jewish calendar and to reform the Israeli court based on ancient Talmudic laws.

OP is just a good example of a controversial and contradictory guideline for a mixed secular and religious community.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-reported-to-say-legal-system-based-on-talmud/

Here again I'm not a partisan, but my reply was based on a deeper insight with a more detailed approach aiming at answering correctly the initial question of @7by7.


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[tonbridgebrit]

The posts put up here by some people show ridiculious hypocrisy.   

Okay, so a load of Arabs cover up their women, and they're criticised for it. But a load of Jews do it, well, that's okay.


I've seen it elsewhere on the internet. Right, "say no to halal" is regarded as being an okay thing to say. But the people saying that, well, the vast majority of them are not interested in saying "say no to kosher".

 

[Ulysses G.]

6 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Okay, so a load of Arabs cover up their women, and they're criticised for it. But a load of Jews do it, well, that's okay.

 

 

As pointed out several times already, it is not a "load" of Jews. It is a tiny minority.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 17/12/2016 at 10:31 PM, happy Joe said:

Slowly but surely, Jewish population of Israel are abandoning the Western civilizations in favor of archaic religious precepts peculiar to this region.

For me Netanyahu is cousin of Bashar. Not you ?

 

On 17/12/2016 at 11:00 PM, Jingthing said:

Peculiar post. 

Look, them Orthodox Jews, the ones who have a big beard and certain clothes, the ones who want to cover up their women. Well, their birth-rate is a fair bit higher than the secular Jews in Israel.

The secular Jews have values that are almost the same as people in America and Europe. Secular Jews want jobs that pay good money, they want to travel all over the world, they want the latest mobile phone, and they use contraceptives.
The Orthodox ones feel that producing children to continue their community is almost the most important thing in life. Getting a back-pack and travelling across Europe for a few months is not regarded as a major ambition in life. And having the latest phone is not so important.

 

 

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

The posts put up here by some people show ridiculious hypocrisy.   

Okay, so a load of Arabs cover up their women, and they're criticised for it. But a load of Jews do it, well, that's okay.


I've seen it elsewhere on the internet. Right, "say no to halal" is regarded as being an okay thing to say. But the people saying that, well, the vast majority of them are not interested in saying "say no to kosher".

 

I don't think saying say no to Halal is OK. 

As far as full covering up, with Jewish women, you're talking about what tiny portion of 1 percent, do you think? It's a FAKE issue. 

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Religious ideology is shared by the many Jewish conservatives and/or orthodox factions.

Pinpointing a small group for their typical clothing is not really relevant to the topic.

It's well known that Netanyahu made during latest pre-elections some deals with the Israeli orthodox community in terms of coalition and future applications like introducing the Jewish calendar and to reform the Israeli court based on ancient Talmudic laws.

OP is just a good example of a controversial and contradictory guideline for a mixed secular and religious community.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-reported-to-say-legal-system-based-on-talmud/

Here again I'm not a partisan, but my reply was based on a deeper insight with a more detailed approach aiming at answering correctly the initial question of @7by7.


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Fair enough, and as evident both here an on past topics - this is not one of them instances in which I'm even the least supportive of Israeli government actions and policies. My objection was first and foremost to the hyperbolic nature of @7by7's post.

 

The constraints of Israeli realpolitik dictate a reality in which the participation of Jewish religiously oriented parties (whether orthodox or otherwise) is required. This usually means giving in to some of their demands - often funds and support for legislation pertaining to the secular-religious status quo. All main parties did it at one time or another, and this is unlikely to change. The paradox being that the less seats religious parties posses on a coalition, the stronger their bargaining position. It would be possible for two (in the past) or three (nowadays) of the major secular parties to create a coalition without religious partners, but this would require them to put other differences aside and risk forgetting about partnership with religious parties on future elections. Traditionally, the right wing is closer in point of view to the Jewish religious parties, as left and centrist forces tend to advocate secular values in tandem with pro-peace views. This puts the right wing at a distinct advantage when it comes to creating a workable coalition.

 

The link provided deals with a promise by Netanyahu - which usually means not a whole lot. As far as I am aware, there were no actual meaningful changes to Israeli law in the spirit suggested. Which, of course, does not make the suggestion any more palatable.

 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 

Look, them Orthodox Jews, the ones who have a big beard and certain clothes, the ones who want to cover up their women. Well, their birth-rate is a fair bit higher than the secular Jews in Israel.

The secular Jews have values that are almost the same as people in America and Europe. Secular Jews want jobs that pay good money, they want to travel all over the world, they want the latest mobile phone, and they use contraceptives.
The Orthodox ones feel that producing children to continue their community is almost the most important thing in life. Getting a back-pack and travelling across Europe for a few months is not regarded as a major ambition in life. And having the latest phone is not so important.

 

 

 

And it still doesn't make the post referred to as peculiar any less peculiar.