Working in Thailand - Define Work...

[LeftFootRightEar]

Hey Everyone,

 

In that process of getting my Ed visa, I had to show my bank account balances so I started reading up on why.  Some people say that they want to see that you have money, but also want to see in some cases that you have a consistent flow of money coming into your foreign accounts so that they won't suspect that you'll be working in Thailand illegally.  My question is, if you're doing some sort of freelance online work while in Thailand, all clients being entirely outside of Thailand, is that considered illegal work in Thailand?  

 

Thanks

[stevenl]

Officially, yes.
Many threads already about this.

Sent from my ROBBY using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[FritsSikkink]

Officially, yes.

[NanLaew]

The key words in how the Thai labour laws define work is "exerting effort". Pretty much covers everything but significantly any form of work entails exerting some degree of effort, be it raking the leaves on your own lawn, or wielding a hammer drill in your own condo makeover (again!) to turning on your laptop and writing some code.

[jspill]

In practice, no. 

 

There's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, countries obviously word things as loosely as they like as a catch-all, but you'll find in practice no one encounters any difficulties doing what you describe - as long as all clients are entirely outside of Thailand so it takes no jobs from Thais. 

[NanLaew]

26 minutes ago, jspill said:

In practice, no. 

 

There's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, countries obviously word things as loosely as they like as a catch-all, but you'll find in practice no one encounters any difficulties doing what you describe - as long as all clients are entirely outside of Thailand so it takes no jobs from Thais. 

Quite so, especially in countries that appreciate the letter versus the spirit, etc.. Not sure the average Thai judge is au fait with that subtle western nuance though.

 

Unless it has gone completely under my radar, I haven't read about any single foreigners being hauled out of a Starbucks, laptop and all, on the premise that he must be working illegally. There have been some instances of Korean and Chinese 'call centers' being busted in Bangkok and the provinces where they round up a dozen or so suspects and seize their computers. No, the solitary digital nomad is more likely to be only suspected of working and harassed at Immigration desks on arrival where they have no recourse for legal advice or support and are far more likely to roll over and take their punishment. Easy target and despite saying as much, the IO doesn't even have to write down these exact suspicions as they avail themselves of the broad 'not a tourist so abusing that visa' reason to refuse entry. 

 

A well as ensuring that both your clients and your business are totally external to Thailand, I think we can agree that being very discrete about what you do online while in Thailand is the best way forward.

[Suradit69]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Not sure the average Thai judge is au fait with that subtle western nuance though.

 

Your lack of assurance is based on what and why do you think this "nuance" is particularly western? Most modern western thinking is derivative and rarely original or exclusive.

 

There are, for example, numerous Biblical (Middle Eastern) references to the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law in debates between Jesus and the Pharisees et al. Even the judgement of Solomon could be said to be an application of the concept. 

 

I expect the percentage of Thai judges capable of embracing what you  amusingly think is uniquely western would surprise you.

[CLW]

Why you had to show bank records for the application of your ED Visa?
My classmates and me were never asked to do this.
We are studying bachelor degree at a public university

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

 

Your lack of assurance is based on what and why do you think this "nuance" is particularly western? Most modern western thinking is derivative and rarely original or exclusive.

 

There are, for example, numerous Biblical (Middle Eastern) references to the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law in debates between Jesus and the Pharisees et al. Even the judgement of Solomon could be said to be an application of the concept. 

 

I expect the percentage of Thai judges capable of embracing what you  amusingly think is uniquely western would surprise you.

Sorry, I don't put much truck in fables but if you have something relevant from (for example) the US Supreme court, I would probably embrace that.

 

As for Thai judges, you cannot discount the mostly non-western nuance of the vested interest, the judgment based on a suitable consideration or plane old face. Well, maybe you can.

[GOLDBUGGY]

If you are being paid for this then technically it would be considered work. But the chances of getting caught seems pretty slim at best. 

[Suradit69]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Sorry, I don't put much truck in fables but if you have something relevant from (for example) the US Supreme court, I would probably embrace that.

 

As for Thai judges, you cannot discount the mostly non-western nuance of the vested interest, the judgment based on a suitable consideration or plane old face. Well, maybe you can.

"Sorry, I don't put much truck in fables ..."

 

Largely irrelevant unless you believe the Bible was written recently by WASP suburbanites. Whether or not the characters in the Bible are real or fabricated, the thoughts regarding the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law were not authored in the west. 

 

Obviously you subscribe to fables that provide an unwarranted sense of comfort to westerners, whether these myths were devised by you or propagated by others who believe all great thinkers have pale complexions. 

 

Not sure why the US Supreme Court would be relevant unless you actually believed the idea of the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law didn't exist until they considered it. It really is a fairly common concept and was one considered by the authors of the Bible long ago. You may think of the distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit  as nuanced, but it isn't really that esoteric or subtle. 

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

If you are being paid for this then technically it would be considered work. But the chances of getting caught seems pretty slim at best. 

Doesn't have to be paid to be work. Even paying to volunteer is considered work.

In practice though, unless one "annoys" a Thai, one can get away with most things. I was digging ditches during floods outside our house with the council workers ( and supervisors ) and I was never taken away by the police.

[dentonian]

Technically if your earning an income from your activity, it is considered working.

However it is not illegal to use or repair your own personal possessions, including a PC. If it were, TV wouldn't exist.

 

Many Digital Nomads earn an income using there PC from Thailand.

As long as any income is paid into a foreign account and you don't upset anyone, there is little risk of any retribution.

[Savilesghost]

35 minutes ago, dentonian said:

Technically if your earning an income from your activity, it is considered working.

However it is not illegal to use or repair your own personal possessions, including a PC. If it were, TV wouldn't exist.

 

Many Digital Nomads earn an income using there PC from Thailand.

As long as any income is paid into a foreign account and you don't upset anyone, there is little risk of any retribution.

Technically not under Thai law, income has nothing to do with it, please go an read the defintion

 

As to the rest of your example, one asuumes your not a lawyer then as your examples are completely off base and not even relevant

 

[dentonian]

52 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

Technically not under Thai law, income has nothing to do with it, please go an read the defintion

 

As to the rest of your example, one asuumes your not a lawyer then as your examples are completely off base and not even relevant

 

 

OK Dr Sherlock, perhaps you can enlighten us all with your infinite wisdom.

 

What doesn't and does constitute work where a work permit would be required.

[ThaiWai]

 "if you're doing.... work while in Thailand..... is that considered illegal work in Thailand?" 

 

Whattaya think bro??

[TerrylSky]

A reputable lawyer was asked about this and he said it was legal. However, the above posts citing Thailand's legal ambiguity and enforcement is relevant I would think. TIT.

[NanLaew]

30 minutes ago, dentonian said:

 

OK Dr Sherlock, perhaps you can enlighten us all with your infinite wisdom.

 

What doesn't and does constitute work where a work permit would be required.

 

See post #4 viz 'exerting effort'.

[NanLaew]

10 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

"Sorry, I don't put much truck in fables ..."

 

Largely irrelevant unless you believe the Bible was written recently by WASP suburbanites. Whether or not the characters in the Bible are real or fabricated, the thoughts regarding the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law were not authored in the west. 

 

Obviously you subscribe to fables that provide an unwarranted sense of comfort to westerners, whether these myths were devised by you or propagated by others who believe all great thinkers have pale complexions. 

 

Not sure why the US Supreme Court would be relevant unless you actually believed the idea of the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law didn't exist until they considered it. It really is a fairly common concept and was one considered by the authors of the Bible long ago. You may think of the distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit  as nuanced, but it isn't really that esoteric or subtle. 

 

Loads of assumptions you have hoovered up there to augment your first so I'll give you 8 for effort. There's a saying that comes to mind. Used to be a long-time members signature. It will come to me in a minute.

 

While we are waiting, rather than split hairs on whether it is the letter or the spirit of the law if and when it may be applied, let's just say the definition of work as translated from Thai to English is wonderfully nebulous. Goes with jspills assertion that the broader the definition, the bigger the potential catch, regardless of the country applying it. However, if a Thai judge had to pick between applying the letter or the spirit of a law where one would let the erstwhile digital nomad go unpunished, I am pretty sure he would pick the other option.

 

Oh yes, "You think too mutt"

[muzmurray]

19 hours ago, NanLaew said:

The key words in how the Thai labour laws define work is "exerting effort". Pretty much covers everything but significantly any form of work entails exerting some degree of effort, be it raking the leaves on your own lawn, or wielding a hammer drill in your own condo makeover (again!) to turning on your laptop and writing some code.

 

If you are going to try and quote the Working of Alien Act 2008, please do it correctly !

 

" "Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;"

[muzmurray]

19 hours ago, NanLaew said:

the IO doesn't even have to write down these exact suspicions as they avail themselves of the broad 'not a tourist so abusing that visa' reason to refuse entry. 

 

Totally wrong - if refused entry, the reason must be stated on the refusal of entry stamp

[Savilesghost]

2 hours ago, TerrylSky said:

A reputable lawyer was asked about this and he said it was legal. However, the above posts citing Thailand's legal ambiguity and enforcement is relevant I would think. TIT.

A lawyer would not say that,  lawyers being the bottom feeders they are would say in their opinion its legal, a lawyer only has an opinion, only a court of law decides whether something is legal or not 

 

So based on your remarks would question how reputable the lawyer was to start with 

[Savilesghost]

2 hours ago, dentonian said:

 

OK Dr Sherlock, perhaps you can enlighten us all with your infinite wisdom.

 

What doesn't and does constitute work where a work permit would be required.

Whats sherlock got to do with this ?

 

The answer is simple, what ever the department of labour decides is work in any given set of circumstances, and a work permit is required in all cases were the DOL deem they need one.

 

From an infinite wisdom pov, you know when someone is working when you see it 

If one is unsure go to your local department of labour and ask...not hard 

 

[dentonian]

38 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

Whats sherlock got to do with this ?

 

The answer is simple, what ever the department of labour decides is work in any given set of circumstances, and a work permit is required in all cases were the DOL deem they need one.

 

From an infinite wisdom pov, you know when someone is working when you see it 

If one is unsure go to your local department of labour and ask...not hard 

 

 

Which is exactly what I did some years ago when I intended to build my own house.

 

According to them anything that I own, use, or choose to work on, in considered my personal property and as such does not violate the Labour laws, unless I profit from such acts.

So I can walk the dog......drive the car......build a house......and use my tools and skills to work on other expats personal properties with their permission and as long as I'm not paid for my labour.

 

My local Immigration office also frequently asks if I would consider doing some voluntary work for them.

I smilingly always state I haven't got a work permit as an excuse, which is met with laughter.

 

I think to many people make a mountain out of a molehill regards what is and is not considered work in Thailand.

Being retired doesn't mean I should just concentrate on breathing in and out every day.

 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Savilesghost said:

A lawyer would not say that,  lawyers being the bottom feeders they are would say in their opinion its legal, a lawyer only has an opinion, only a court of law decides whether something is legal or not 

 

So based on your remarks would question how reputable the lawyer was to start with 

 

You missed one item lawyers usually sprout 'it depends'.

[GOLDBUGGY]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Doesn't have to be paid to be work. Even paying to volunteer is considered work.

In practice though, unless one "annoys" a Thai, one can get away with most things. I was digging ditches during floods outside our house with the council workers ( and supervisors ) and I was never taken away by the police.

The reason behind Volunteer Work being considered as work as there is some form of Consideration attached to that. Free Housing! Free Food! Per Diem perhaps!

 

You are confuse in that perhaps being paid means receiving money. It actually mean being given a "Consideration" for your work. If someone offered you a New Mercedes to pave his driveway, then tax wise this would be considered equal to being paid this in cash.

 

The way I had it explained to me once is that if you build a statue to put that on your front lawn, then that is okay. If a friend sees this and wants you to build him one, for some free beers, then it is not okay. If you decide to do this for free and give it to him as a gift, then again it is okay.

[NanLaew]

10 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

Totally wrong - if refused entry, the reason must be stated on the refusal of entry stamp

 

Yes but it will never say the person is suspected of working. The Immigration department doesn't give a hoot about illegal workers until they are brought to their attention by the plod working with the Labour office whereupon they handle the exit proceedings.

[NanLaew]

10 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

If you are going to try and quote the Working of Alien Act 2008, please do it correctly !

 

" "Work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;"

OK, you tell me what the difference is between 'exerting effort' and exerting energy'?

 

Bloody semantics!

[Savilesghost]

6 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

The reason behind Volunteer Work being considered as work as there is some form of Consideration attached to that. Free Housing! Free Food! Per Diem perhaps!

 

You are confuse in that perhaps being paid means receiving money. It actually mean being given a "Consideration" for your work. If someone offered you a New Mercedes to pave his driveway, then tax wise this would be considered equal to being paid this in cash.

 

The way I had it explained to me once is that if you build a statue to put that on your front lawn, then that is okay. If a friend sees this and wants you to build him one, for some free beers, then it is not okay. If you decide to do this for free and give it to him as a gift, then again it is okay.

So why did the volunteers after the Tsunami who were tourists and offered to help told they needed work permits then, they were prepared to help for no considerations 

 

The reason volunteering requires a WP is the fact it fits the defintion of "work" irrespective of any "considerations" 

[GOLDBUGGY]

3 hours ago, Savilesghost said:

So why did the volunteers after the Tsunami who were tourists and offered to help told they needed work permits then, they were prepared to help for no considerations 

 

The reason volunteering requires a WP is the fact it fits the defintion of "work" irrespective of any "considerations" 

I am sorry but I don't recall this particular incident you mention here, so I can't really comment on why the government wouldn't allow Volunteers to help for free. I can only guess that a Volunteer is classified under government regulations as needing a Work Permit, as under normal circumstances they are given some form of consideration to do that type of work. As in free housing and food. It appears they don't have any laws in place to cover special circumstances, as in your case when a Volunteer is willing to work totally for free.

 

You said not all work in Thailand is paid work and I agree with you. But let me expand on that further to define "Paid" as not only including a cash payment, but also any form of Consideration that has value. For example if you were a Condo Manager who was given a free place to stay to collect rent and keep the place clean, then you would actually be a paid worker and therefore require a Work Permit.  

 

So understanding "Paid Work" as meaning to receive anything of value for your labor is very important to know when you consider who needs a Work Permit, and who doesn't. Surely you don't believe that if a man who helps his wife doing up the supper dishes he risks being thrown out of the country and banned, for not having a Work Permit. Or a man working on his garden. Or a man picking up rubbish and paper bags that blew into his yard requires a Work Permit.

 

However if this same man working in his garden has plans to sell all of his vegetables at he open market,  or the man picking up rubbish is on;y picking up empty beer cans and pop bottles he plans to sell later, then technically he would need a Work Permit. See  the difference?