Israel: 'Ironclad information' White House behind UN rebuke

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Goingmad said:

Political group, who represent a people, who make , produce, export nothing. They live off of money, from Israel and other countries.

But what they do is promote terrorism against Israel. Israel is tired of the attacks.

How are they supposed to produce anything when Israel controls everything and has no interest, IMO, in allowing Palestinians to succeed at anything?

If Israel is "tired of the attacks", they can make peace. However, they obviously would rather occupy other people's land than give it back, which is what peace would entail.

Edited December 29, 2016 by thaibeachlovers

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, notmyself said:

 Blatant anti-Semitism.  

Not at all, just critical of Israeli actions.

[notmyself]

So you have close to 600K people who have settled in occupied land. It is illegal under international law and everyone knows it including the U'S. and Israel. The U.S. finally does nothing at all (no veto) and Bibi spit's the dummy. Is the argument so weak that simply being able to ask the question is offensive? I think we know the answer to that

 

Loved what was the UN at the time for giving them a country but after deflected or ignored them.... often with the help of the U.S.

[Tawan Dok Krating Daeng]

3 hours ago, Goingmad said:

Political group, who represent a people, who make , produce, export nothing. They live off of money, from Israel and other countries.

But what they do is promote terrorism against Israel. Israel is tired of the attacks.

 

I wonder if ignorance is a result of bigotry or if bigotry is a result of ignorance. It certainly is a friend of laziness since ignorant people have no need to search for the most elementary information.

 

Palestine exports were $920 million against imports of $4.5 billion in 2014 according to MIT. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/pse/ The trade deficit is a major challenge for Palestine's economic management. Their exports are not that sexy - building steel, scrap, plastic lids and cucumbers, but they are exported with around 80% going to Israel. 

 

The 2016 forecasts by the Palestine Monetary Authority projected donor assistance to Palestine to reach $1 billion while remittances from abroad would exceed that at $1.2 billion http://www.pma.ps/Portals/1/Users/002/02/2/Publications/English/Annual Reports/Economic Forecast Report/Economic Forecasts 2016 (En).pdf This is against a public debt of $4.2 bn in 2013 and revenue of $2.2 bn in 2012 according to Wikipedia.

 

Most of the population of Palestine (4.5 million) are busy working, eating, drinking and other such things. They are a developing economy with significant challenges. Attempts to delegitimize them as a people and deny them the right to self determination through such ignorant, crude and prejudiced comments are inhumane.

 

Palestine and the Palestinians exist. The World endorsed their existence with the recent UN Vote. Israel, Trump and the gibbering, salivating, mindless fanboys besotted by him have to deal with that reality. You and the people like you no longer get to define Palestinians.

[Jingthing]

Suggesting that Israel's continued expansion of west Bank settlements retards hopes of peace negotiations is certainly not an antisemitic POV. It's very mainstream and I share that POV.

Suggesting that Israel should have been in Germany and/or that Israel didn't ever have a right to exist and shouldn't have that right now is another matter.

[Tawan Dok Krating Daeng]

55 minutes ago, Goingmad said:

It's all about the Money. It's all about the Money.

It's all about the Money. It's all about the Money.

They need money to Fund the Terrorist attacks on innocent Jews.

 

 

According to the Palestine Monetary Authority, there was $9.6 billion on deposit during the month of November 2016 in the 16 banks that operate there.

http://www.pma.ps/en-us/statistics/monthlystatisticalbulletin.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks_in_Palestine

 

You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Tawan Dok Krating Daeng

[Tawan Dok Krating Daeng]

4 minutes ago, Goingmad said:

Other countries give money to the PLO Government ( Terrorists ) And they give out to the people who put in banks, and use to buy food. Obama has spoken, but Israel will not kneel the this soon to be golfer.

Trump will change this.

And a group of people who elect a Terrorist Government does not have any rights; on this Planet.

 

Trump has no choices. He has shot his wad. It fizzled. He is tainted by his statements in support of illegal settlements endorsed by the Right Wing Israeli Government. His only option is to become more extreme which is a course of action that has just been rejected by the entire World.

 

I provided facts and statistics in my post. You provide nothing but stupid supposition. Demonstrate that money held by Palestinian private citizens is provided to them by other countries or have your ignorance demonstrated to all.

 

Your attempt to deny the rights of this group of people is tantamount to a call for genocide. They are not going away. Their right to resist oppression is supported by a significant number of countries.

 

Bleat away and dream of your hero donald being led by the nose by all those who are smarter than he.

[Jingthing]

 
God? I have no need of that hypothesis.
 
If  had known I was debating a zealot, I would not have wasted my time.

I would agree you can't have a rational discussion with zealots on any side.

[Morch]

20 hours ago, Tawan Dok Krating Daeng said:

 

The people, whose identity you deny and whom you call 'Arabs' and whom you blame exclusively for hostilities in parts of Israel and Palestine are necessary to any solution. They certainly exist in the current reality irrespective of their relationship to previous regimes in history. Your suggestion that a solution must be based on the acquiescence of one side of a conflict is arrogantly imperialistic. Leave it to the Right Wing to propose imposing 'peace' down the barrel of a gun.

 

The metaphorical ethnic cleansing through the refusal to use the word Palestinian emboldens those who wish to implement a literal ethnic cleansing as a Final Solution. While such attitudes prevail, it is difficult to see the Palestinians accept any arrangement imposed by fiat from the Israeli Government. These attitudes sustain the conflict are inhumane and have been just rejected by the entire World as expressed through the UN Security Council through the recent vote.

 

I also find such attitudes personally offensive and disgusting. They relate to people i know and work with and have real consequences.

 

That's a fine post, and a fine sentiment.

 

It just fails to acknowledge that similar denials of legitimacy, denial of definition, right to exist and all the rest are also routinely applied to Israel and Jews, whether referencing the state, the nation, the people, their views and whatnot. In one way or the other, these are all ongoing themes with regard to certain posters. Moreover, such positions are not alien, nor even rare among Palestinians (probably to a lesser extent in the company you keep, though).

 

It is, indeed, a major issue, but hardly a one sided one. Treating it as such misses the point - which is, IMO, both sides largely unwilling to recognize the other as legitimate.

[Gary A]

How do you stop the Jews from killing the terrorists? It's pretty simple. Stop firing rockets and stop trying to kill Jews. You have lunatics taking knives to a gunfight.. How stupid can they be? The terrorists produce nothing and get weapons from other terrorists. They are simply useless people.

[Morch]

I don't know if this is the alleged "Ironclad information", or if it even relates to it, but there was a report of meetings between US and Palestinian officials (including Kerry) published on an Egyptian media outlet, which were claimed to be based on transcripts of those meetings. The information, if authentic, suggests that the US involvement went an extra mile beyond the usual diplomatic maneuvering, and further than what claimed by US officials.

 

This is, by no means, a claim that the information published is verified, (or that it is, indeed, what Israeli officials were referring to), but not so improbable as to merit dismissal or readily accept the US calling it a "fabrication". The original report was presented in Arabic, here are a few links (from Israeli media, as there's more coverage available) reviewing the story:

 

Transcript claims to show US worked with Palestinians on UN resolution

http://www.timesofisrael.com/transcript-claims-to-show-us-worked-with-palestinians-on-un-resolution/

 

Leaked Document: U.S. Colluded With Palestinians 10 Days Before UN Settlements Vote
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.761741

 

Leaked documents claim UN anti-settlement resolution orchestrated by US, PA co-op

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Leaked-document-claims-UN-anti-settlement-resolution-orchestrated-by-US-PA-co-op-476736

 

Report: Kerry and Erekat orchestrated UN anti-settlement resolution

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4899613,00.html

 

 

There were several comments made along the lines of "it doesn't matter", "who cares?". Surprisingly enough, these were made not by Trump supporters, but by posters usually found deriding such comments made by Trump supporters. IMO, if these reports are real then inasmuch as it relates to the content of the resolution itself, it is indeed of little consequence. But quite different with regard to how the outgoing administration conducts itself. One thing to engage in behind the scenes diplomacy, another to deny the level of involvement only to be caught out. Politicians lie all the time, but that doesn't mean it ought to be condoned or ignored. Also, it would be somewhat hypocritical to complain about Trump making all sort of diplomatic moves before taking office, while the administration sets diplomatic moves of its own at the same time.

[Morch]

18 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

The jig is up. Kerry finally admitted that Israel was telling the truth about this underhanded move.

 

Kerry Admits US Coordinated With UN Security Council on Israeli Settlement Resolution

 

During his speech today at the State Department, Secretary of State John Kerry seemed to confirm much of what Israeli diplomats had been claiming for the past couple of days — the United States was behind the United Nations resolution on Israeli settlements.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/kerry-admits-us-coordinated-with-un-security-council-on-israeli-settlement-resolution/

 

I like this one:

 

President-elect Donald Trump‘s pick for CIA director Mike Pompeo liked a tweet Wednesday that called Secretary of State John Kerry a “traitor.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/donald-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-likes-tweet-calling-john-kerry-a-traitor/

 

I find it disturbing that you like a future CIA director publicly (and on Tweeter, no less) supporting such a comments against a Secretary of State, without even a shred of reasoning offered. That by itself ought to serve as a warning sign when it comes to his appointment. But seeing as this is also the sort of thing the new National Security Advisor engages in, perhaps it's a requirement.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, dexterm said:

Who cares what diplomatic maneuvers have been taking place?

 

If you pay the piper you get to call at least some of the tunes. And $38 billion for the next 10 years and at least $3 billion annually for the last few decades is quite a large amount for the USA to put in the Israeli hat. You'd expect to be listened to now and then.

 

Care to apply the same disregard to all many of the previous instances which did not play to your liking? Thought so. Used to be all fire and brimstone about such diplomatic maneuvers. About as disingenuous as it gets, but nothing new there.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

18 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

The jig is up. Kerry finally admitted that Israel was telling the truth about this underhanded move.

 

 

I like this one:

 

President-elect Donald Trump‘s pick for CIA director Mike Pompeo liked a tweet Wednesday that called Secretary of State John Kerry a “traitor.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/donald-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-likes-tweet-calling-john-kerry-a-traitor/

Let's just say for argument's sake that Kerry did metaphorically stab Israel in the back  How would that make him a traitor?  As far as I know, John Kerry is a citizen of the United States, not Israel. I recall when similar U.S. officials leveled a similar charge against Julian Assange, even though he is a citizen of Australia.  So this raises the question, who does Mike Pompeo think he owes allegiance to? The United States or Israel? Of course, the more likely answer is that he's just not too bright.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Let's just say for argument's sake that Kerry did metaphorically stab Israel in the back  How would that make him a traitor?  As far as I know, John Kerry is a citizen of the United States, not Israel. I recall when similar U.S. officials leveled a similar charge against Julian Assange, even though he is a citizen of Australia.  So this raises the question, who does Mike Pompeo think he owes allegiance to? The United States or Israel? Of course, the more likely answer is that he's just not too bright.

 

Not impossible to imagine a scenario in which a US official taking action against a friendly foreign nation could be considered as acting also against the interests of the US. However, question remains if this would be termed "treason", and more to the point - if the current situation is anything of the sort.

[Morch]

12 hours ago, Gary A said:

I have no answers, only questions.

 

How can you negotiate with a group of terrorists who say that you have no right to exist?

How can you make peace with terrorists who place a bounty on your citizens?

How can you respect terrorists who do nothing with the land they already occupy? Good citizens nurture the land and make it productive.

 

Not all of the Palestinians are terrorists, and Israel maintains close security coordination with the Palestinian Authority, which works to both sides benefit. The position of Abbas & Co. does not reject Israel's right to exist, there are other, even numerous voices on the Palestinian side which do hold such views. But then, the Israeli side is a sort of a mirror image when it comes to this.

 

Bounty on citizens? Not as such, and citizens on both sides are being hurt as a result of the conflict. Most of them are Palestinian.

 

What respect could there be when defining all the other side as "terrorist"? Do nothing with the land is a bit rich considering the ongoing Israeli occupation, the restriction it implies and of course, the illegal settlement effort. It is not that if these issues were resolved, future prospects for the Palestinians would be bright, and it is not that in some instances the Palestinians didn't royally mess things up on their own - it is just that making this charge is dishonest addressing relevant conditions.

[Morch]

12 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Not all Palestinians are terrorists. You can't paint an entire country with a broad brush like that. 

 

Indeed, and at the same time as many posts on these topics applying similar broad brushes to Israel.

Most posters commenting on these topics aren't really interested in much else other than vilifying the side they oppose.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Try to nurture this land.

https://972mag.com/photos-living-in-the-ruins-of-a-shattered-gaza-neighborhood/96387/

 

 

Try a better example. This picture is from the Gaza Strip, ruled by Hamas. Hamas interest with peace is minimal, and the same goes for the care shown for Palestinian civilians unfortunate enough to live on its turf. Hamas invests a whole lot of effort and funds in projects aimed at strengthening military capabilities and infrastructure, rather less enthusiastic with putting it's own civilians first.

[rabas]

29 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Let's just say for argument's sake that Kerry did metaphorically stab Israel in the back  How would that make him a traitor?  As far as I know, John Kerry is a citizen of the United States, not Israel. I recall when similar U.S. officials leveled a similar charge against Julian Assange, even though he is a citizen of Australia.  So this raises the question, who does Mike Pompeo think he owes allegiance to? The United States or Israel? Of course, the more likely answer is that he's just not too bright.

 

Oh, Kerry has been a traitor for a long time, do you know his history? 

Here is one of the petitions to try him for treason. You can sign if you want.

 

"Kerry is a traitor, who has a well-documented history of providing "aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of war -- particularly in the case of North Vietnam, Nicaragua and Cuba. Kerry, by his own account of his actions and protests, violated the UCMJ, the Geneva Conventions and the U.S. Code while serving as a Navy officer. Kerry met, on two occasions, with North Vietnamese negotiators in 1970 and 1971, willingly placing himself in violation of Article three, Section three of the U.S. Constitution, which defines treason as "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of warfare."

 

Indict John F. Kerry for Acts of Treason

https://patriotpost.us/petitions/9

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by rabas

[Morch]

11 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Both main political parties running the government have been supportive of terrorism and Hamas in particular. The Palestinian people elected them.

 

By the same account, are Israeli citizens responsible for all the actions taken and policies promoted by their representatives? And before expected deflections, there are some rather vile things said and advocated by Israeli politicians.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

The same can be said of most governments around the world!  Sadly....covertly supporting their favorite terrorist organization.

 

The "covertly" part does not apply, though.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, Goingmad said:

Political group, who represent a people, who make , produce, export nothing. They live off of money, from Israel and other countries.

But what they do is promote terrorism against Israel. Israel is tired of the attacks.

 

Ah, so you're trying to fully equate between political groups and the people they supposedly represent? Doubt if it sticks. Your original comment was that the political group does not deserve a country. Perhaps so, but the people do.

 

Palestinians do produce, and do export - there are them restriction presented by living under a military occupation, but don't let facts confuse you. Details and figures are readily available on these issues. This is not denying that the Palestinians do receive considerable aid from foreign sources - but not from Israel.

 

Not all the Palestinians promote terrorism, and bringing it up without context is a rather hollow argument.

[ilostmypassword]

18 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

Oh, Kerry has been a traitor for a long time, do you know his history? 

Here is one of the petitions to try him for treason. You can sign if you want.

 

"Kerry is a traitor, who has a well-documented history of providing "aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of war -- particularly in the case of North Vietnam, Nicaragua and Cuba. Kerry, by his own account of his actions and protests, violated the UCMJ, the Geneva Conventions and the U.S. Code while serving as a Navy officer. Kerry met, on two occasions, with North Vietnamese negotiators in 1970 and 1971, willingly placing himself in violation of Article three, Section three of the U.S. Constitution, which defines treason as "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of warfare."

 

Indict John F. Kerry for Acts of Treason

https://patriotpost.us/petitions/9

 

Here's a link to a real news source about Kerry's contacts with not the North Vietnamese - but a South Vietnamese group allied with the North Vietnamese:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39744-2004Sep21.html

Good luck getting a court to uphold a treason verdict against him. You would need a lot of it.

 

And by the way, unlike the patriotic Donald Trump, John Kerry somehow managed not to acquire bone spurs and did serve in Vietnam

John Kerry served as a Lieutenant in the United States Navy during the period from 1966 to 1970. His last tour in Vietnam was four months as officer in charge of a Swift boat in 1969. Kerry received several combat medals during this tour, including the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_John_Kerry

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by ilostmypassword

[Morch]

9 hours ago, notmyself said:

The state of Israel, as a collective, has no interest in peace. During the last election cycle Bibi himself said that there is no way Jerusalem would ever be given back so this whole 'through dialogue' is an affront to any thinking person. What will happen now? Will the state of Israel try to back up their claim that the settlements are not against international law or will they just run and hang on to the apron strings that the  U.S. has? Children

 

Israel is not a collective, and does not have a singular attitude as presented. In a similar vein, you could have cited Palestinian leaders making similar comments communicating lack of interest in a compromise.

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Israel is not a collective, and does not have a singular attitude as presented. In a similar vein, you could have cited Palestinian leaders making similar comments communicating lack of interest in a compromise.

No, Israel is not a collective. But public opinion has gradually moved far to the right in its attitude towards the right in respect to the West Bank and its own Arab citizens.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How are they supposed to produce anything when Israel controls everything and has no interest, IMO, in allowing Palestinians to succeed at anything?

If Israel is "tired of the attacks", they can make peace. However, they obviously would rather occupy other people's land than give it back, which is what peace would entail.

 

Do you actually know anything about the Palestinians? There is production, there are exports. Yes, they are greatly hamstrung by the restrictions imposed by living under the Israeli occupation - but not as if there's nothing. If Israel was that intent on barring "anything" this wouldn't be so.

 

Making peace is a two way street, not entirely up to one of the sides. And no, there is no guarantee or clear commitment that attacks will stop following an Israeli withdrawal or a peace agreement.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

No, Israel is not a collective. But public opinion has gradually moved far to the right in its attitude towards the right in respect to the West Bank and its own Arab citizens.

 

And that got nothing to do with similar trends on the Palestinian side....right?

[ilostmypassword]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And that got nothing to do with similar trends on the Palestinian side....right?

 

16 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

No, Israel is not a collective. But public opinion has gradually moved far to the right in its attitude towards the right in respect to the West Bank and its own Arab citizens.

 

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And that got nothing to do with similar trends on the Palestinian side....right?

Maybe you can point to some recent examples of where a people whose land is being expropriated and colonized become more moderate and reasonable over time. I await your reply with interest.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

 

Maybe you can point to some recent examples of where a people whose land is being expropriated and colonized become more moderate and reasonable over time. I await your reply with interest.

 

Perhaps when you'd stop with the "colonial" nonsense, but then you are trying to make this a one sided issue, so not holding my breath. If you think that the views of either side are unrelated to actions and views of the other, or that it works one-way, there's little to discuss. Deflect away.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Morch