More Britons want greater control of immigration than EU free trade - poll

champers · January 13, 2017

I think most reasonable concerns about immigration are down to security. Brits are generally tolerant and apprecitive of the work of immigrants in public services and construction. The recent murder of innocents in Berlin highlightrd the failure of co-ordinated pan-European security measures. Since 2005 the UK has remained relatively unscathed and people would like to keep it that way. If that doesn't sit well with people outside the UK then so be it. We are a bloody minded and resolute nation and those qualities served Europe well in 2 major conflicts in the 20th century, lest anyone forgets.

LammyTS1 · January 13, 2017

I think most reasonable concerns about immigration are down to security. Brits are generally tolerant and apprecitive of the work of immigrants in public services and construction. The recent murder of innocents in Berlin highlightrd the failure of co-ordinated pan-European security measures. Since 2005 the UK has remained relatively unscathed and people would like to keep it that way. If that doesn't sit well with people outside the UK then so be it. We are a bloody minded and resolute nation and those qualities served Europe well in 2 major conflicts in the 20th century, lest anyone forgets.

Well spoken.

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Basil B · January 13, 2017

On 09/01/2017 at 1:52 PM, Lite Beer said:

This just goes to show how racist and xenophobic Brits have become.

The country is rapidly going down the pan.

Shameful.

I do not see it as that, Yes I want to see greater control on immigration...

Mainly to get priorities in order, at this time there is no control on most Europeans coming to the UK, that means Criminals, people looking for free welfare hand outs, working under the radar at wages below legal minimums and not paying tax etc.

Believe it or not that is not as big a problem as some people will make out and I see no reason to offer "controlled" free movement on favourable terms to Europeans subject to reciprocal arangements and other trade deals.

But I want to see:

Immigration being able to check for any criminal convictions in any European country.
3 month maximum stay without a job unless:
- They have adequate funds to live in the UK
- They are a dependant of someone who can support them
- They are seeking employment where by the stay could be extended a further 3 months subject to their funds and proof of job seeking
Proof of employment would be PAYE tax receipts, if a person came to the UK to set up a business/company it would have to be a limited company where by as a director they must draw a salary sufficient to support themselves and family (proof would be PAYE tax receipts).
Their own country to continue to provide welfare/emergency support to them and their families if need be until they have worked two years in the UK.
EU should no longer dictate who we allow into the UK

We should have another classification of leave to enter/remain which is for "work" and until any foreign worker has accumulated enough pension funds to sustain themselves in retirement they could not get "Indefinite Leave To Remain".

Obviously all the above should be reciprocal, We will need a lot more foreign workers in the next few years, particularly Care Workers so much of the above could be extended to people from out side of the EU as well.

Should also be a route for returning expats to bring back dependants.

superal · January 14, 2017

10 hours ago, Basil B said:

I do not see it as that, Yes I want to see greater control on immigration...

Mainly to get priorities in order, at this time there is no control on most Europeans coming to the UK, that means Criminals, people looking for free welfare hand outs, working under the radar at wages below legal minimums and not paying tax etc.

Believe it or not that is not as big a problem as some people will make out and I see no reason to offer "controlled" free movement on favourable terms to Europeans subject to reciprocal arangements and other trade deals.

But I want to see:

Immigration being able to check for any criminal convictions in any European country.

3 month maximum stay without a job unless:
They have adequate funds to live in the UK

They are a dependant of someone who can support them

They are seeking employment where by the stay could be extended a further 3 months subject to their funds and proof of job seeking

Proof of employment would be PAYE tax receipts, if a person came to the UK to set up a business/company it would have to be a limited company where by as a director they must draw a salary sufficient to support themselves and family (proof would be PAYE tax receipts).

Their own country to continue to provide welfare/emergency support to them and their families if need be until they have worked two years in the UK.

EU should no longer dictate who we allow into the UK

We should have another classification of leave to enter/remain which is for "work" and until any foreign worker has accumulated enough pension funds to sustain themselves in retirement they could not get "Indefinite Leave To Remain".

Obviously all the above should be reciprocal, We will need a lot more foreign workers in the next few years, particularly Care Workers so much of the above could be extended to people from out side of the EU as well.

Should also be a route for returning expats to bring back dependants.

Could you be a little more specific on this point Should also be a route for returning expats to bring back dependants.

roobaa01 · January 14, 2017

there are 47000 british homeless war veterans, who served their country loyally with their heart, care for them first prior to let illegal freeloaders suck away your social system.

so mote it be

wbr

rooobaa01

Basil B · January 14, 2017

5 hours ago, superal said:

Could you be a little more specific on this point Should also be a route for returning expats to bring back dependants.

I was thinking of spouse in particular being able to accompany partner while they and/or partner seek employment for 3 months, being able to request further extension of 3 months following interview at job centre who will check they are genuine job seekers (like they would with any person claiming unemployment benefits, but they would not be getting benefits) and would have to prove they sill have adequate fundining.

rockingrobin · January 14, 2017

27 minutes ago, Basil B said:

I was thinking of spouse in particular being able to accompany partner while they and/or partner seek employment for 3 months, being able to request further extension of 3 months following interview at job centre who will check they are genuine job seekers (like they would with any person claiming unemployment benefits, but they would not be getting benefits) and would have to prove they sill have adequate fundining.

A route already exists for both non EU and EU spouses in the UK immigration acts. I cannot see the government relaxing the rules for non EU spouses, when they have spent the last 15+ years making life as difficult as possible

Edited January 14, 2017 by rockingrobin

Grouse · January 14, 2017

15 hours ago, Basil B said:

I do not see it as that, Yes I want to see greater control on immigration...

Mainly to get priorities in order, at this time there is no control on most Europeans coming to the UK, that means Criminals, people looking for free welfare hand outs, working under the radar at wages below legal minimums and not paying tax etc.

Believe it or not that is not as big a problem as some people will make out and I see no reason to offer "controlled" free movement on favourable terms to Europeans subject to reciprocal arangements and other trade deals.

But I want to see:

Immigration being able to check for any criminal convictions in any European country.

3 month maximum stay without a job unless:
They have adequate funds to live in the UK

They are a dependant of someone who can support them

They are seeking employment where by the stay could be extended a further 3 months subject to their funds and proof of job seeking

Proof of employment would be PAYE tax receipts, if a person came to the UK to set up a business/company it would have to be a limited company where by as a director they must draw a salary sufficient to support themselves and family (proof would be PAYE tax receipts).

Their own country to continue to provide welfare/emergency support to them and their families if need be until they have worked two years in the UK.

EU should no longer dictate who we allow into the UK

We should have another classification of leave to enter/remain which is for "work" and until any foreign worker has accumulated enough pension funds to sustain themselves in retirement they could not get "Indefinite Leave To Remain".

Obviously all the above should be reciprocal, We will need a lot more foreign workers in the next few years, particularly Care Workers so much of the above could be extended to people from out side of the EU as well.

Should also be a route for returning expats to bring back dependants.

ALL passports are checked on arrival. Arrest warrants are automatically flagged.

Why we don't also do this on departure is beyond belief.

We should at least know who is in and who is out....

7by7 · January 14, 2017

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

ALL passports are checked on arrival. Arrest warrants are automatically flagged.

Why we don't also do this on departure is beyond belief.

We should at least know who is in and who is out....

Departure checks were stopped in the 1990s to cut costs.

7by7 · January 14, 2017

16 hours ago, Basil B said:

But I want to see:

Immigration being able to check for any criminal convictions in any European country.Already can; see Grouse's post above.

3 month maximum stay without a job unless:
They have adequate funds to live in the UK Already the case.

They are a dependant of someone who can support them If entering as a jobseeker, have to be able to support themselves. If they were working and lose that job then they can claim JSA; if they have paid the required NICs.

They are seeking employment where by the stay could be extended a further 3 months subject to their funds and proof of job seeking Already the case under the directive. In fact, they do not just have to show proof of job seeking, they have to show that they have a reasonable chance of obtaining work in the near future.

Proof of employment would be PAYE tax receipts, if a person came to the UK to set up a business/company it would have to be a limited company where by as a director they must draw a salary sufficient to support themselves and family (proof would be PAYE tax receipts). If they are legally employed or self employed then they will be paying tax and NICs the same as anyone else, so they will be on record with HMRC and DWP. If they are working illegally and not paying tax and NICs they can, if discovered, be removed from the UK.

Their own country to continue to provide welfare/emergency support to them and their families if need be until they have worked two years in the UK. Whilst EEA nationals can claim many public funds in their host state, they cannot claim them all until they have lived there for 5 years and so have PR. During that time they must also not become "an unreasonable burden upon the state."

EU should no longer dictate who we allow into the UK The freedom of movement directive only applies to EEA nationals and their qualifying non EEA national family members. The EU have no say or control over a member state's immigration requirements for anyone else. As said previously, freedom of movement of peoples was one of the founding principles of the EC and something the British people agreed to in 1975. It is also something approximately 1.5 million British citizens currently take advantage of.

Grouse · January 14, 2017

35 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Departure checks were stopped in the 1990s to cut costs.

Yes, but I blame the EU

7by7 · January 14, 2017

39 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Departure checks were stopped in the 1990s to cut costs.

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, but I blame the EU

Tongue in cheek, I trust Grouse!

The decision was made by the then Tory government with no input at all from Brussels.

In fact, checks of a sort have been reintroduced under the Immigration Act 2014; but the data is collected by the carriers and then passed on to the Home Office: Passport exit checks begin at UK ports and borders

Grouse · January 14, 2017

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Tongue in cheek, I trust Grouse!

The decision was made by the then Tory government with no input at all from Brussels.

In fact, checks of a sort have been reintroduced under the Immigration Act 2014; but the data is collected by the carriers and then passed on to the Home Office: Passport exit checks begin at UK ports and borders

Correct

There's so much codswallop on here though.

We are not in Schengen. Passports ARE required ( we're still saving up for full automation ). Why are we not automatically vetting everyone in real time?

Much of our ills are down to poor government.

BTW, many foreigners will see U.K. Education fees effectively 20% lower now. That'll teach them to have the temerity to think they can get an education in the UK. Actually, according to several of my interlocutors on here, university education is useless anyway ?

Jack100 · January 14, 2017

ABout 20 years ago a Polish grocery shop opened up in the small UK town where I grew up . Through thick and thin it has remined open while

so many of the old shops , pubs I remember from my youth have long closed , even their replacements and even a fmaily shop we once owned .

Must say I find it hard to get my head around that sometimes ,

jpinx · January 14, 2017

5 minutes ago, Jack100 said:

ABout 20 years ago a Polish grocery shop opened up in the small UK town where I grew up . Through thick and thin it has remined open while

so many of the old shops , pubs I remember from my youth have long closed , even their replacements and even a fmaily shop we once owned .

Must say I find it hard to get my head around that sometimes ,

Why is it so difficult to understand when the people running marginal businesses soon realise that they are better off on the dole and claiming benefits.

jpinx · January 14, 2017

11 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

No, posters have only comprehensively refuted your daft claim that people who go to uni are more intelligent. Just to repeat: as a group, they aren't more intelligent, and they don't become more intelligent than others when they are at uni. They merely receive special training in a particular chosen subject while they are there.

Is that referring to the same intelligent poster who has done a complete about-turn and now wants immediate hard brexit?

Grouse · January 14, 2017

31 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Is that referring to the same intelligent poster who has done a complete about-turn and now wants immediate hard brexit?

I have given up. I now realise that too many of my countrymen are beyond redemption. Too poorly educated if you prefer. Easier for me to go. Too much of an uphill struggle the other way. So, off you go and ENJOY...

LammyTS1 · January 14, 2017

Is this a topic about Britons wanting a greater control of university education or a better control of immigration?

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pitrevie · January 15, 2017

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

I have given up. I now realise that too many of my countrymen are beyond redemption. Too poorly educated if you prefer. Easier for me to go. Too much of an uphill struggle the other way. So, off you go and ENJOY...

Well as far as UKIP is concerned Nigel Farage said he is relieved to no longer be Ukip leader because it had meant “having to deal with low-grade people every day”.

superal · January 15, 2017

17 hours ago, Basil B said:

I was thinking of spouse in particular being able to accompany partner while they and/or partner seek employment for 3 months, being able to request further extension of 3 months following interview at job centre who will check they are genuine job seekers (like they would with any person claiming unemployment benefits, but they would not be getting benefits) and would have to prove they sill have adequate fundining.

Hi Bazil B ,

Interesting comment but I do not think that will happen any time soon . What bugs me is getting over the first hurdle i.e. despite being a UK national the procedure to allow your spouse entry to the UK , even for a tourist visa , is not straightforward with many a case rejected despite meeting all of the criteria . Decisions are inconsistent . I recall a couple or 3 years ago when the Thai government made sounds ref;consideration for reciprocal agreements to many countries for tourists visas because and for an example , for a Thai to visit the UK for a holiday unescorted and single would be very difficult , completely the opposite for a UK person visiting Asia with visa on arrival . UK nationals deserve better treatment from their own country but that is another subject .

jpinx · January 15, 2017

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

"I do indeed make derogatory remarks from time to time" - indeed you do, but they are general comments that basically boil down to 'if you disagree with my opinion you are uneducated and stupid' .

I'm still trying to work out why you are pretending to be so arrogant/rude/condescending etc. - as no-one genuinely trying to make their point would work so hard to alienate those with a different opinion. It makes no sense at all to someone as cynical as myself.

Back to the topic !!!! The Dutch politician put his finger on what is bugging many working people in UK - wage inequality. Maybe the fact that it's becoming a "trending" topic will make TM's path a little easier in the negotiations.

Rimmer · January 15, 2017

Multiple off topic posts leading to bickering have been removed. Topic is about:

More Britons want greater control of immigration than EU free trade

It not about University education

Grouse · January 15, 2017

50 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Back to the topic !!!! The Dutch politician put his finger on what is bugging many working people in UK - wage inequality. Maybe the fact that it's becoming a "trending" topic will make TM's path a little easier in the negotiations.

So why all the negativity when I first mooted inequality as a major factor? Remember? Gini coefficients?

dick dasterdly · January 15, 2017

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So why all the negativity when I first mooted inequality as a major factor? Remember? Gini coefficients?

I for one am never negative when you post about inequality (as I agree). But I am negative about your posts when they so often insist that anyone who dared to vote Brexit was uneducated/ignorant and stupid.

Which is why I'm still left trying to work out why you so deliberately antagonise so many other posters?

But back on topic, its interesting to hear that the latest poll suggests that most Brits. are more concerned about immigration rather than free trade.

My opinion is that this is because they have seen that the promised Armageddon didn't happen, and so are more sceptical - but of course it could also be argued that the numbers are increasing because over the last few months even more are " Too poorly educated".

Grouse · January 15, 2017

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I for one am never negative when you post about inequality (as I agree). But I am negative about your posts when they so often insist that anyone who dared to vote Brexit was uneducated/ignorant and stupid.

Which is why I'm still left trying to work out why you so deliberately antagonise so many other posters?

But back on topic, its interesting to hear that the latest poll suggests that most Brits. are more concerned about immigration rather than free trade.

My opinion is that this is because they have seen that the promised Armageddon didn't happen, and so are more sceptical - but of course it could also be argued that the numbers are increasing because over the last few months even more are " Too poorly educated".

Look, moderation is already taking exception to bickering.

For the last time remain IS correlated with education level. (And age and social class) it's a statistical issue.

A separate issue is that many on both sides seem ill informed of the FACTS. (The literal meaning of ignorant)

More recently I made the observation that inequality was a key issue and that this is getting out of hand in the UK

I also mooted that those who were more successful ( those doing well despite inequality) would be more likely to be content with the status quo and be more likely to vote remain.

BTW, Sterling has indeed fallen dramatically. I am not going to revisit the pros and cons of that but it is a direct effect of the market view of hard Brexit

As I say, I now am happier to leave England alone. My values are much more "European". As a result, I think the rump of the UK should get closer to the USA where similar values prevail.

Finally, I can assure you that I have never trolled or baited anyone. My views have remained unchanged. If some do not understand irony then that is a pity.

I apologise for any offence caused. It was not intentional ?

Basil B · January 15, 2017

23 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

A route already exists for both non EU and EU spouses in the UK immigration acts. I cannot see the government relaxing the rules for non EU spouses, when they have spent the last 15+ years making life as difficult as possible

Families having to split up for over 6 months while the person with right to reside finds a job and works long enough to prove a income of over £18,600+ and our */!"£$%* Government seems to think this OK???

This is riding roughshod of over the basic human right of "Right to Family Life" and fails to take account of two factors...

Cost of living varies across the UK and the factor that this does not allow (say in the instance Husband UK citizen, Wife Thai citizen) the wife's earning ability, even if the wife was on minimum income and worked 3 hours a day 5 days a week that £5,860pa and that would knock a bloody big hole in the £18,600.

This is why I want to see control over our boarders where we can take priority over who we let in first and our government will not have to kowtow to European Bureaucrats.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Basil B

7by7 · January 15, 2017

9 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Families having to split up for over 6 months while the person with right to reside finds a job and works long enough to prove a income of over £18,600+ and our */!"£$%* Government seems to think this OK???...............

With respect, Basil, the iniquities of the financial requirement introduced in July 2012 have been discussed many times in the Visas and migration to other countries forum; and I know you are aware of my views on the matter.

But this is a topic about the EU, who have no control over a member states rules and requirements for immigration from outside the EEA, apart from qualifying non EEA national family members of an EEA national.

The financial requirement for family migration into the UK was wholly a decision of the UK government, and nothing to do with the EU nor this topic.

Basil B · January 15, 2017

With respect I think it has everything to do with the EU, with freedom of movement, complying with EU rules and Cameron's failed pledge to reduce immigration...

Grouse · January 15, 2017

20 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Families having to split up for over 6 months while the person with right to reside finds a job and works long enough to prove a income of over £18,600+ and our */!"£$%* Government seems to think this OK???

This is riding roughshod of over the basic human right of "Right to Family Life" and fails to take account of two factors...

Cost of living varies across the UK and the factor that this does not allow (say in the instance Husband UK citizen, Wife Thai citizen) the wife's earning ability, even if the wife was on minimum income and worked 3 hours a day 5 days a week that £5,860pa and that would knock a bloody big hole in the £18,600.

This is why I want to see control over our boarders where we can take priority over who we let in first and our government will not have to kowtow to European Bureaucrats.

I don't think this issue (with which I have great sympathy) is down to the EU. Much more due to folks from the sub-continent bringing in their mothers and their sisters and their cousins and their aunts.

Good luck - perseverance defeats bloody mindedness always ?

Basil B · January 15, 2017

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I don't think this issue (with which I have great sympathy) is down to the EU. Much more due to folks from the sub-continent bringing in their mothers and their sisters and their cousins and their aunts.

Good luck - perseverance defeats bloody mindedness always ?

I do think you are being racist, and again my thought are if they bringing in...

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

their mothers and their sisters and their cousins and their aunts.

as dependants they would have to prove they can support them by means of tax contributions...

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