Red or Black earth for land fill?

[tlock]

I'm just beginning the process of building a house in Buriram, so will likely be a persistent poster over the coming year.  Is this the correct forum?  I won't actually be DIY since I don't have any experience, but would like to keep an eye on the builder and be aware of my options.  The builder is a relative of my wife and builds farang-style houses for a living in Chonburi and has shown me photos.  He is also our next door neighbor, so I don't think he's motivated to do a hack job and do a runner.  However, in typical Thai style he seems to be attempting to save me as much money as possible thinking that cost is my main concern.   My goal is to build a quality house that will last a long time without major problems.  To that end, I'm less concerned with saving money than getting quality construction, but I also don't want to be stupid and would like to only pay extra for the important things.

 

The first decision is the landfill.  I found this link: http://www.thaihousebuilder.com/planning/  that describes the difference between red and black earth:

 

1. Land Fill – When filling land, there are two types of dirt – “din daeng” and “din dam.” Din daeng is red earth and although it is frequently used for fill, it is terrible for planting a garden and water drainage as it is essentially clay. So if you plan to have a garden, dig out the good earth and put it where your garden will be and then put the red earth under the house or fill with din dam which is good topsoil.

I would definitely like lots of trees and flowers around the house, so I think I need to use the din dam.  It also sounds like the black earth is better for drainage.  The builder's first quote was to find red earth, and he seems to think using red earth will enable us to begin building more quickly, as the din dam will take more time to settle.  I'm thinking that even if we just use din dam as topsoil, large trees would eventually need to burrow roots through the red clay so just using topsoil probably won't get me what I want.  I envision large trees all around the house for the kids.

 

Anyone have any input into this decision process?  Has anyone chosen one or the other and regretted the choice?  

 

Thanks in advance

[bankruatsteve]

No disrespect intended, but it sounds like you're not a gardener either.  You might be amazed at what can be grown in mostly clay along with stuff called potting soil and other techniques.  Whatever... you definitely want the clay for land fill as it compacts very well and you would be paying a LOT more for black dirt.

[tlock]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

No disrespect intended, but it sounds like you're not a gardener either.  You might be amazed at what can be grown in mostly clay along with stuff called potting soil and other techniques.  Whatever... you definitely want the clay for land fill as it compacts very well and you would be paying a LOT more for black dirt.

 

Yep- Not a gardener either.  Not very good with my hands, bit of a bookworm.  Thus, turning to the internet for advice, all advice welcome :).

[Kwasaki]

The article answers your question clay would be better for foundation of your house to be on.

Does the land building site need much land fill. ?

What is the soil at the land site now and has it any plantation. ?

[tlock]

I think the soil at the site is not clay.  It's not black, but it's not super red, i'll attach a picture when I get a chance.

 

Builder suggested 1.5 meter fill.

 

They said that the price for red or black is the same?  My girlfriend expected black to me more expensive as well.  300 baht per truck, about 90k total.

 

 

[grollies]

Have you got room for a pond? Something around 15m2 x 3m deep would be a decent size and give you a source of material for landfill/raising.

 

If you already have one, hey ho.

 

Assume you will be stripping topsoil? Keep to one side then dress around the garden with topsoil when you landscape.

[eyecatcher]

Who has made the decision to fill? I always consider the fill aspect of house construction one of the biggest scams around....lets all have some pie job

 

1.5m of fill is mega...find another plot. OR design your house with a raised floor so you are no concerned with flooding nor a great expense.

 

I disagree with above posters about clay fill. In my opinion this is the worst fill imaginable. its cheap maybe but it doesnt compact despite it sounding like it will.

1.Thais do not compact anything adequately. if you want to supervise then insist every 150/300mm is compacted. No one wants to do that with 1500mm depth? otherwise their hand will be out for even more money.

 

2. Most clay will have been excavated in the dry/hot season so its bone dry, hard and like rock. as a result very difficult to break up....so land full of voids and air spaces

3. clay when it does absorb water, expands, its causes ground heave and breaks the backs of concrete slabs. conversely if it dries out it shrinks and your footings/house will settle more than you can imagine leading to worrying crcks or worse.

 

the best fill is crusher run/roadbase but even that needs compacting....did you ever see them making a road, the amount of passes those bomags do?

 

Personally if I woas faced with 1.5m fill I would be redesigning or looking elsewhere to avoid doing it.

[bankruatsteve]

Regarding "clay" in Buriram... it's not the river clay that you could do pottery with but one that has a mixture of small rocks.  It settles nicely and doesn't need mechanical compacting.  But, no matter what kind of fill is used any footings should go completely through the fill and into the original ground unless you plan to wait 2-3 years.

[Morch]

With regard to planting trees and garden, wouldn't worry about it too much. As someone else said, if there's worthwhile topsoil, keep it. And digging a pond/waterhole should result in some extra workable soil, keep that as well.

 

We had plot filled a couple of years ago, when done it looked like a bit of desert. One rainy season later, it was full of shoulder height weeds and whatnot. Offered neighbor to park his cows there for a while, did a good job of mowing it all down. Same thing this year.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

32 minutes ago, tlock said:

I think the soil at the site is not clay.  It's not black, but it's not super red, i'll attach a picture when I get a chance.

Builder suggested 1.5 meter fill.

They said that the price for red or black is the same?  My girlfriend expected black to me more expensive as well.  300 baht per truck, about 90k total.

 

Your get many ideas and don't do's but best to landfill to avoid the house being situated in a large pond at certain times of year.  

 

1.5 m so land has possible flood problems, we had a 2 m land fill because of land flooding, it wasn't the case for us to find somewhere else.

 

Well whatever soil is on existing land where the foundation of house is to be clay is OK.

We soaked the loads while land was being filled and got a bulldozer to do the spreading as they are much better than tractors for clay compaction as it's being filled. 

[tlock]

Thanks for all the helpful replies, lots of useful information.  Most of the houses in the area seem to have decent amount of fill under them (estimating 1-2 meters), so it seems to be the status quo, I'm assuming to avoid flooding more than anything else.

[bankruatsteve]

8 minutes ago, tlock said:

Thanks for all the helpful replies, lots of useful information.  Most of the houses in the area seem to have decent amount of fill under them (estimating 1-2 meters), so it seems to be the status quo, I'm assuming to avoid flooding more than anything else.

 

TIT.  I've seen that happen several places I have lived in Thailand.  An area all at the same level but one place decides to fill, then the next place needs to do it, etc. etc.  The poor family's that can't afford to raise up get the flooding.

[jak2002003]

We filled with the red soil.

 

Then added the black soil on top for the garden.

 

Built 2 houses now over 12 years using this method and both houses are still 100 percent OK.

 

Just used tractors to level it out. 

 

Don't worry about trees and plants.  We had no problems getting things to grow in this climate.  Plant roots break up the soil, worms and bugs mix it together with leaves and dead bits of plants, the rain softens the soil and tree roots are powerful and can get through concrete... so the red soil is no problem to them to get the good stuff under it. 

 

 

[grollies]

57 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

 

TIT.  I've seen that happen several places I have lived in Thailand.  An area all at the same level but one place decides to fill, then the next place needs to do it, etc. etc.  The poor family's that can't afford to raise up get the flooding.

Bit harsh mate. Most poor families homes in the countryside I've seen in flood-prone areas are pretty old and already on stilts.

 

More a problem for 'middle class' Thais in the suburbs of places like Ayuttaya whose homes are all newish and prone to flooding (similar to new UK homes built in flood plains).

 

Most land-raising I've seen brings properties up to road level with agricultural land behind left to take up the slack.

 

Raising a housing plot by 2m does not exacerbate flooding of surrounding homes, there's too much low land around.

 

Online personal abuse is not nice, you could have put it better.

 

Cheers.

[bankruatsteve]

10 minutes ago, grollies said:

Online personal abuse is not nice, you could have put it better.

 

Cheers.

 

Where do you find "online personal abuse" in anything I posted?  If you plan to be a troll, you will be ejected.

 

[grollies]

3 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

 

Where do you find "online personal abuse" in anything I posted?  If you plan to be a troll, you will be ejected.

 

Calling the OP a TIT? I'm not the troll here.

[bankruatsteve]

Oooh Kay.  For those who don't know... "TIT" is an acronym for "This is Thailand".  It was first originated by a "Night Life" editorial submitter for the Bangkok Post.  Shit - I can't remember his name right now - pretty sure somebody will put it though.  Anyway... it's not a derogatory term.  It's like - that's the way it is here.  Cheers.

 

[grollies]

3 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Oooh Kay.  For those who don't know... "TIT" is an acronym for "This is Thailand".  It was first originated by a "Night Life" editorial submitter for the Bangkok Post.  Shit - I can't remember his name right now - pretty sure somebody will put it though.  Anyway... it's not a derogatory term.  It's like - that's the way it is here.  Cheers.

 

Steve, OK, I apologise unreservedly but I'm pretty new here and didn't get the acronym.

 

You want to respond to my post otherwise?

[grollies]

1 minute ago, grollies said:

Steve, OK, I apologise unreservedly but I'm pretty new here and didn't get the acronym.

 

You want to respond to my post otherwise?

To the OP, I posted before "and they're off", then fell into the same trap 555555.

[ubonjoe]

Just cleaned up this topic. Time to get back on topic.

[grollies]

Some good advice above. As bankruatsteve said, get your footings into virgin ground then landraise with subsoil. Compact in layers, that much soil you're going to be using a 36 tonne backhoe or bulldozer to spread it out, track continuously over the ground.

 

You don't want to be using topsoil as the house base, too much settlement, expensive and a waste of organic soil.

 

For garden areas keep any topsoil aside. Before landscaping most of the site surrounding the house will be compacted by vehicles, machines, etc. Get your excavator to loosen it

up 2 or 3 feet deep. (Now is the time to get a load of rice husk, straw and chicken manure. Get a big, hugh pile mixed and set aside).

 

Mix this into the loosened subsoil then dress with topsoil.

 

Morch and jak2002003 are right though, don't worry too much. My missus came home with a stick 6ft long and told me to plant it into the ground. 4 months later it's a tree about 15ft high.

[grollies]

On 10/01/2017 at 0:33 PM, tlock said:

I think the soil at the site is not clay.  It's not black, but it's not super red, i'll attach a picture when I get a chance.

 

Builder suggested 1.5 meter fill.

 

They said that the price for red or black is the same?  My girlfriend expected black to me more expensive as well.  300 baht per truck, about 90k total.

 

 

"The builder is a relative of my wife...."

 

Do the wife and girlfriend get on? 

[tlock]

2 hours ago, grollies said:

"The builder is a relative of my wife...."

 

Do the wife and girlfriend get on? 

 

heh- married less than a year, still getting used to the lingo.

[grollies]

16 minutes ago, tlock said:

 

heh- married less than a year, still getting used to the lingo.

Nice one, hope you'll be as happy as me and wifey, 7 years in. Retired here just over a year ago.

 

Good luck with the house build.

[Deepinthailand]

i get whatever fill is available at the time get half the fill in then get the tractor to level it off. leave it for two week then hire 4 whacker plates and me and 3 workers use the plates all day in our set areas then put masses of water on. leave it for two days and whack it down again. a week later get the rest of the fill in and repeat the above procedure leave it to settle for at least two months if not more I also like to do all this in the rainy season compacts better, Then its ready to start the build around March April time, works well for us we have built 5 houses so far. once house is built we put a good quality top soil on the garden area and plant trees and stuff straight away whilst the builders are still on site to help.

[grollies]

37 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

i get whatever fill is available at the time get half the fill in then get the tractor to level it off. leave it for two week then hire 4 whacker plates and me and 3 workers use the plates all day in our set areas then put masses of water on. leave it for two days and whack it down again. a week later get the rest of the fill in and repeat the above procedure leave it to settle for at least two months if not more I also like to do all this in the rainy season compacts better, Then its ready to start the build around March April time, works well for us we have built 5 houses so far. once house is built we put a good quality top soil on the garden area and plant trees and stuff straight away whilst the builders are still on site to help.

Yep, that'd work. Interesting to read of different construction methods people use.

[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, Deepinthailand said:

whack it down again

 

With what, we hire bulldozer no whacking required then. 

[Deepinthailand]

Bulldozers can compact it down a bit agreed but whackerplates really do compact better.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Deepinthailand

[grollies]

27 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

Bulldozers can compact it down a bit agreed but whackerplates really do compact better.

A 40 tonne excavator has a pad contact pressure of around 7 psi, same as a small whacker plate. Take your pick.

[grollies]

30 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by grollies
Duplicate post