Muslim girls must attend mixed swim class - European rights court

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/11/2017 at 6:38 PM, Grouse said:

 

Nope. Secularism does NOT equate to dictatorship. Furthermore you can believe what you like just keep it to yourself. Religious teaching is generally arcane, superstitious and wrong.

In your opinion. Billions of people disagree with you. Atheists are a tiny minority of the world's population.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Point missed or more likely ignored; not surprised.

 

Religious education is compulsory in all state schools in England*, but it is not compulsory for pupils to attend if their parents do not wish them to do so.

 

A daily act of worship is compulsory in state schools in England*, but it is not compulsory for pupils to attend if their parents do not wish them to do so.

 

Sex education  is compulsory in all state schools in England*, but it is not compulsory for pupils to attend if their parents do not wish them to do so.

 

Some people, of all religions, do not wish their children to attend mixed sex swimming lessons or other activities due to their religious and/or cultural beliefs. Why should they be forced to do so?

 

I find it amusing that some people who have in the past called for the UK to withdraw from both the ECHR and it's court are on this on this occasion full of praise for it!

 

*I haven't checked, but imagine it's the same in all other parts of the UK; or at least very similar.

 

Why should they be forced to do so?

Because the policy of allowing segregated ghettos of Muslims where they live life as though it was in a sharia country has been an utter failure. If the only way to make them integrate is by forcing the children to behave according to the norms of society, so be it. Mixed swimming lessons are as good a place to start as any.

As there is no requirement for Muslims to remain in western societies, if they find that unacceptable they are free to move to more culturally acceptable countries.

Edited January 12, 2017 by thaibeachlovers

[Thechook]

Maybe next time they should choose a country that abides by strict Islamic traditions.  You can't demand an entire country change its culture and traditions to be the country you left for economic reasons.  If you want Islamic ways go to an Islamic country, you can't have it both ways.

[Thechook]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In your opinion. Billions of people disagree with you. Atheists are a tiny minority of the world's population.

Are they?  Religion is dying, people are tired of the cults.  I take it you are a god bothered and will preach more and more are comming to worship your imaginary friend whisk more and more churches are closing down.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

A civilized society should mandate swim class for children if only to prevent drownings. If Muslim don't want mixed bathing maybe they could send their girls to private lessons but this would be a negative lesson enforcing sexism.

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[the guest]

That's why most go to Muslim schools.

[7by7]

9 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

Because swimming is not a religious matter, but social. The Swiss want a society integrated in socially reasonable ways.

 

Before he died my father used to attend our local leisure centre on a Wednesday morning for a pensioners only badminton session.

 

The leisure centre hold many other sessions in a wide range of activities for pensioners only.

 

They have done this for many years. So do you believe that pensioners in my local area are not "integrated in socially reasonable ways?"

 

Not all Muslims want single sex swimming; not all Jews do either, nor all Plymouth Brethren etc.

 

But some do. So do some non religious women, of all ethnicities. Therefore many councils in the UK offer women only sessions in their pools; to cater for their council taxpayers.

 

They are not forced to, they choose to.

 

Back to the actual topic; if the parents of a child, any child, do not want that child to attend swimming lessons, why should they be forced to do so?

 

 

 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why should they be forced to do so?

Because the policy of allowing segregated ghettos of Muslims where they live life as though it was in a sharia country has been an utter failure. If the only way to make them integrate is by forcing the children to behave according to the norms of society, so be it. Mixed swimming lessons are as good a place to start as any.

As there is no requirement for Muslims to remain in western societies, if they find that unacceptable they are free to move to more culturally acceptable countries.

 I don't know where you live, but in the UK and Western Europe there are no "segregated ghettos of Muslims where they live life as though it was in a sharia country."

 

Unless you can prove me wrong by naming some; with reputable evidence.

[ddavidovsky]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Back to the actual topic; if the parents of a child, any child, do not want that child to attend swimming lessons, why should they be forced to do so?

 

 

Because the Swiss deem it healthier in their society for children to engage in normative activities such as mixed swimming. That's really the end of the debate.

 

Fact is, the children don't get any say in it - that's the problem. Switzerland doesn't want foreigners coming and cordoning off all sorts of ordinary activities in the name of religion. It makes them feel like strangers in their own country. Yes - their country, their culture, their values, their centuries of hard work that built the place into somewhere that foreigners from completely alien cultures now want to turn up and grab a piece of because it is better than their own country.

 

[halloween]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In your opinion. Billions of people disagree with you. Atheists are a tiny minority of the world's population.

Mass ignorance doesn't make belief into fact. The earth isn't flat and the sun doesn't revolve around it.

[F4UCorsair]

11 hours ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

A civilized society should mandate swenm class for children if only to prevent dro wnings. If Muslim don't want mixed bathing maybe they could send their girls to private lessons but this would be a negative lesson enforcing sexism.

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Australia has had school swimming programs for many years, but there have still been 20+ drownings, many of them children, In recent months.

Learning to swim, and In so doing, learn social Integration, Is vitally Important In a multi cultural 21st century, even If It's against the wishes of muslim parents.

[F4UCorsair]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Mass ignorance doesn't make belief into fact. The earth isn't flat and the sun doesn't revolve around it.

 

You seem to have a problem with people having a faith?

 

If It serves them In some way, why should those who choose no faith be concerned?

 

Numerous studies have shown that Those who do have a faith cope with personal emotional trauma, e.g., the death of a child/spouse, better than those who don't, and that can't be a bad thing.

 

Religion Is a very personal choice, and few who do have a faith would bucket those who don't.

[Jingthing]

I would say whether Muslim, Orthodox Jewish, Buddhist, or Scientologist if you're attending a secular school in a non-theocratic nation, you must accept that the rules of the school apply. If not, attend a religious school.

 

Of course hopefully secular schools can show at least some reasonable level of flexibility for people from diverse backgrounds as perhaps the religious schools are not always available or a realistic option for some families.

 

Like in the U.S. secular schools are not supposed to lead religious prayers but if children wants to pray on their own during a break time, who does it hurt? 

 

 

Next ... 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Jingthing

[simple1]

9 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

Because the Swiss deem it healthier in their society for children to engage in normative activities such as mixed swimming. That's really the end of the debate.

<snip>

 

 

Then why does the Swiss government permit gender separated private schools? Smells of different standards according to status/wealth.

 

The two girls in the OP have been refused citizenship; why not those attending private schools whose parents only wish them to attend single sex schools for cultural / religious reasons? If mixed gender recreation / learning school activities are a requirement of government policy, such policy should be applied to all schools, otherwise resonates of government sponsored bigotry.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-citizenship-muslim-girls-refuse-swim-boys-islam-immigration-europe-a7111601.html

Edited January 12, 2017 by simple1

[ddavidovsky]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

Then why does the Swiss government permit gender separated private schools? Smells of different standards according to status/wealth.

 

The two girls in the OP have been refused citizenship; why not those attending private schools whose parents only wish them to attend single sex schools for cultural / religious reasons? If mixed gender recreation / learning school activities are a requirement of government policy, such policy should be applied to all schools, otherwise resonates of government sponsored bigotry.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-citizenship-muslim-girls-refuse-swim-boys-islam-immigration-europe-a7111601.html

 

Internal differences vs external differences. Local and alien traditions. Permissible variation established over the centuries by those who built up that society versus alien customs freshly imported by foreigners from totally unrelated cultures.

 

Immigrants call that bigotry, but people just want to feel comfortable in their own country. Everyone likes to have some foreigners around but not have their culture diluted or distorted into something else. The ancient inhabitants of a country don't want to have to behave or speak differently on account of arrivistes who have drawn religious lines around themselves and insist on importing them.  Money can always buy privilege, but for the ordinary people the ordinary rules apply.

 

Underlying this debate, as always, is the breathtaking sense of entitlement of foreigners who happily parasitize all those centuries of hard work that their hosts spent in building up their culture and economy - they simply don't give history any thought at all.

 

[Thorgal]

 

Then why does the Swiss government permit gender separated private schools? Smells of different standards according to status/wealth.

 

The two girls in the OP have been refused citizenship; why not those attending private schools whose parents only wish them to attend single sex schools for cultural / religious reasons? If mixed gender recreation / learning school activities are a requirement of government policy, such policy should be applied to all schools, otherwise resonates of government sponsored bigotry.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-citizenship-muslim-girls-refuse-swim-boys-islam-immigration-europe-a7111601.html

Swiss school system exists of more traditional Catholic schools and the secular government schools.

Gender group is specified by the schools board, and not by national education laws. Separate boys and girls schools are still normal for the EU and countries like Switzerland.

Parents have to sign a document before enrolment that their children will adhere to the educational plan of the school. This educational plan is or religious or secular of the school. It's not a national decree.

The Turkish parents from OP should be aware of their earlier commitment to the educational plan of the school. Happens so many time that potential immigrants sign documents and realising only afterwards the real deal.

For sure the parents aren't Kemalists...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism

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[simple1]

22 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

Swiss school system exists of more traditional Catholic schools and the secular government schools.

Gender group is specified by the schools board, and not by national education laws. Separate boys and girls schools are still normal for the EU and countries like Switzerland.

Parents have to sign a document before enrolment that their children will adhere to the educational plan of the school. This educational plan is or religious or secular of the school. It's not a national decree.

The Turkish parents from OP should be aware of their earlier commitment to the educational plan of the school. Happens so many time that potential immigrants sign documents and realising only afterwards the real deal.

For sure the parents aren't Kemalists...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism

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Thanks - makes sense.

 

Yeah I believe you're correct, the " Kemalist Turks" have been identified as a peaceful successfully integrated majority Muslim heritage group in Oz and as I understand in other countries.

[i claudius]

15 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Before he died my father used to attend our local leisure centre on a Wednesday morning for a pensioners only badminton session.

 

The leisure centre hold many other sessions in a wide range of activities for pensioners only.

 

They have done this for many years. So do you believe that pensioners in my local area are not "integrated in socially reasonable ways?"

 

Not all Muslims want single sex swimming; not all Jews do either, nor all Plymouth Brethren etc.

 

But some do. So do some non religious women, of all ethnicities. Therefore many councils in the UK offer women only sessions in their pools; to cater for their council taxpayers.

 

They are not forced to, they choose to.

 

Back to the actual topic; if the parents of a child, any child, do not want that child to attend swimming lessons, why should they be forced to do so?

 

 

 

The one thing i will say , but i am sure you will push your left wing ideas

 

pensioners and in that group i include your dad . did not and do not DEMAND segregated  anything . councills just do it so that old people can get together , but in my old home town where there IS a Muslim ghetto ,they have been made muslim pensioner clubs now  anyway 99% of the white and black community have fled . i am not going to tell you where i lived so dont bother asking .

[Thorgal]

Maybe next time they should choose a country that abides by strict Islamic traditions.  You can't demand an entire country change its culture and traditions to be the country you left for economic reasons.  If you want Islamic ways go to an Islamic country, you can't have it both ways.

It's not about allowing strict Islamic traditions.

There was actually in 1993 an identical court case in Switzerland in which a Muslim father won the case.

But apparently since 2007 the Swiss judicial and political entities made a U-turn.

http://www.humanrights.ch/en/switzerland/internal-affairs/groups/cultural/exemption-swimming-lessons-school

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[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I don't know where you live, but in the UK and Western Europe there are no "segregated ghettos of Muslims where they live life as though it was in a sharia country."

 

Unless you can prove me wrong by naming some; with reputable evidence.

 

 

Muslim ghettos in Paris and Brussels are incubators of Islamic extremism where police fear to tread, crime and unemployment are rampant and radical imams aggressively recruit young men to wage jihad against the West, experts said Tuesday.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/22/muslim-ghettos-in-europe-are-hotbeds-for-terror/

Edited January 13, 2017 by thaibeachlovers

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

Muslim ghettos in Paris and Brussels are incubators of Islamic extremism where police fear to tread, crime and unemployment are rampant and radical imams aggressively recruit young men to wage jihad against the West, experts said Tuesday.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/22/muslim-ghettos-in-europe-are-hotbeds-for-terror/

Wow. The New York Post. Impeccable source. But I won't dismiss it on that account. Let's take a closer look  at your quote and a further quote form that article

"But the perpetrators of last November’s bloody attack on Paris and other terror strikes in Belgium and France hailed from Molenbeek, a Brussels slum that has long been a hotbed for radical Islam, drugs and lawlessness."

 

. I notice that there's no reference to "Sharia Law" in the article you cited. And how could there be?. If there were sharia law in effect then the lawlessness and drug use would be met with drastic punishment. Hands cut off, if not heads.  In fact, these are ghettos of people who are refugees and emigres from Muslim lands, and they are mostly Muslims, but the problems in those ghettos have little to do with Sharia law but a lot to do with poverty. Unless of course you maintain that it's only slums with Muslims that have problems with crime and violence

[7by7]

22 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

Because the Swiss deem it healthier in their society for children to engage in normative activities such as mixed swimming. That's really the end of the debate.

 

Fact is, the children don't get any say in it - that's the problem. Switzerland doesn't want foreigners coming and cordoning off all sorts of ordinary activities in the name of religion. It makes them feel like strangers in their own country. Yes - their country, their culture, their values, their centuries of hard work that built the place into somewhere that foreigners from completely alien cultures now want to turn up and grab a piece of because it is better than their own country.

 

 

I fail to see how allowing a little girl to skip swimming lessons is going to destroy Swiss culture!

 

Which is, after all, a mix of French, German and Italian.

 

Although I don't agree with harry Lime on the subject of Swiss culture

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by 7by7

[7by7]

10 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

<snip>

Underlying this debate, as always, is the breathtaking sense of entitlement of foreigners who happily parasitize all those centuries of hard work that their hosts spent in building up their culture and economy - they simply don't give history any thought at all.

 

 

Based upon numerous posts in various sub forums of TVF, you could be describing the average farang living in Thailand!

[7by7]

9 hours ago, i claudius said:

The one thing i will say , but i am sure you will push your left wing ideas

 

pensioners and in that group i include your dad . did not and do not DEMAND segregated  anything . councills just do it so that old people can get together

 

Muslims do not DEMAND segregated anything. Like the pensioner only activities my late father enjoyed, men only and women only swimming sessions came about to accommodate the wishes of the local community, the local council tax payers.

 

'Demand' may be the appropriate word to use, but not in the sense which you use it; rather in the sense that it is what people want and are prepared to pay for.

 

If you put "Muslim only swimming sessions in UK" into Google you will get many results like Men-only Muslim swimming pools are an insult to a United Kingdom built on equality.

 

But if you delve a little deeper you will find that these are not Muslim only sessions, they are men only sessions; any man of any religion or none is welcome.

 

You will also find that there are just as many women only sessions; not Muslim women only; all women welcome. For example, from Luton, the council which so outraged Tony parsons in his rant linked to above,  Women-only Swimming Sessions

 

Some times these sessions are provided by the local authority who own and run the pool; sometimes they are provided by a club or group who have hired the pool for that session.

 

Many years ago I belonged to Guildford BSAC; we hired the council run pool once a week for the entire evening for the exclusive use of our members. As did Guildford swimming club on a different evening. As far as I am aware, both still do.

 

10 hours ago, i claudius said:

but in my old home town where there IS a Muslim ghetto ,they have been made muslim pensioner clubs now  anyway 99% of the white and black community have fled . i am not going to tell you where i lived so dont bother asking .

 

Of course you're not; wouldn't want people checking your claims for accuracy; would you!

[LammyTS1]

This is the first time in a civilised country that I've heard parents deciding which classes their children should attend rather than the Education authorities. 

 

[7by7]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

 

Muslim ghettos in Paris and Brussels are incubators of Islamic extremism where police fear to tread, crime and unemployment are rampant and radical imams aggressively recruit young men to wage jihad against the West, experts said Tuesday.

http://nypost.com/2016/03/22/muslim-ghettos-in-europe-are-hotbeds-for-terror/

 

France’s ‘No Go Muslim-Only’ Zones Aren’t What You Think They Are

 

Debunking the Myth of Muslim-Only Zones in Major European Cities

 

Paris By Mouth's response to the claim of such no go zones: Eating & Drinking in the No-Go Zones

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

This is the first time in a civilised country that I've heard parents deciding which classes their children should attend rather than the Education authorities. 

 

 

Really?

 

I have already posted that in England religious and sex education is compulsory in state schools, yet parents have the right to withdraw their children from those classes if they wish.

 

This is nothing new, and nothing to do with Islam. I think it was part of the 1944 Education Act; it was certainly the case during my entire school career, which ended in 1971, during which Jewish pupils, and others, were excused religious education classes.

[LammyTS1]

 
Really?
 
I have already posted that in England religious and sex education is compulsory in state schools, yet parents have the right to withdraw their children from those classes if they wish.
 
This is nothing new, and nothing to do with Islam. I think it was part of the 1944 Education Act; it was certainly the case during my entire school career, which ended in 1971, during which Jewish pupils, and others, were excused religious education classes.

If it's compulsory then why can parents decide to withdraw their children from them? Can't be compulsory, must be optional.

Either way it must be a nightmare for school authorities and not beneficial to the children.



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[7by7]

It is compulsory because state schools must provide lessons in these two subjects.

 

Withdrawing children from one or both is very simple; the parent writes a letter of request to the Head of the school.

 

Optional?

 

Maybe, but all pupils must attend unless their parents request otherwise; opt out rather than opt in.

[Canceraid]

I really think that all non-muslim countries should stop entertaining the special requirements of these muslims and if they do not like it, ask them to go back home. Mosques and also muslim schools should not be allowed in non-muslim countries until Saudia Arabi allows Churches, temples etc to be built. Destroy all existing mosques and muslim schools and ask these muslims to go back home.