Elite Card only option for 8yr old homeSchooled Expat

[thaiclan]

Thank fully we have found our (only) solution to the visa problem my 8 year old daughter was having.  She now has her own single Elite Visa which allows her to remain home schooled and stay in Thailand for the next 5 years.

 

Just for info in case others are in the same position...

Eldest daughter attends a school and thus has an Ed visa, thus Mum gets a non-O year visa on the back of this.

Dad has a single Elite Card as he doesn't work in Thailand and is too young for retirement visa.  At the time he purchased it (a little over a year ago) there was no need to purchase a Family Elite package.

We travel frequently and never had a problem coming and going until mid last year when there seemed to be a clamp down on children "following" their parents visas. We were stopped several times at the airport and told that our 8 year old needed her own visa as she wasn't allowed more than 3 x 30day entry stamps (we were travelling every couple of weeks as have a home in another country too).

 

We then looked into what visa we could obtain for her.  We consulted immigration (Jomtien and Bangkok), Visa shops, Embassies (Jakarta and Singapore) as well as Thai Law Offices.

It appears there are 2 conflicting laws.  There is a law that states a child under the age of 14 can reside in Thailand without a visa and "follow" their parents.  After 14 they need their own visa (usually an Ed visa).

However there is also a law that states any foreigner of any age entering Thailand must have their own visa.

It appears that if we didn't travel we could just sit tight in Thailand and not be breaking any visa rules for her (until she reached 14).

 

Home School for our youngest is our preference and we did not want to have to send her to a school just to qualify for legal stay here.  Interestingly it is written in Thai law (for Thai people) that homeschool is their right if they choose - yet foreigners don't have this freedom :-(

 

We contacted Elite and whilst they couldn't add our daughter to Dad's visa we discovered there is no age limit to obtain your own single Elite Card (as I said before there ARE family packages available - if only we had known a year earlier that immigration rules would change!).

 

So now our 8 year old has her own Elite Card and we can express our parental freedoms to provide the education that we want.

We have lived in Thailand for 14 years as a family and it is quite crazy the gamut of visa hoops we have jumped through to legally stay here!

However, once more there is always a solution to be found, so a good news story in the end :-)

[ubonjoe]

The law is that children under the age of 15 are not fined for an overstay which does not exempt them from needing visas.

The only was for a child to follow on a parents permit to stay is if the parent has certain extensions of stay as their dependent by applying for a an extension. It is also possible for children to get a non-o visa to visit their parents if they are here on a long stay visa or extension of stay.

[dentonian]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The law is that children under the age of 15 are not fined for an overstay which does not exempt them from needing visas.

 

 

Do you have a link to that law please Joe.

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, dentonian said:

 

Do you have a link to that law please Joe.

It is in the civil code and applies to all types of fines not only overstay fines.

[dentonian]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It is in the civil code and applies to all types of fines not only overstay fines.

Any idea which section as there are so many.

[Carib]

Maybe this helps..

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-penal-code.html

 

Section 73 A child not yet over seven years of age shall not be punished for committing what is provided by the law to be an offence.

Section 74 Whenever a child over seven years but not yet over fourteen years of age commits what is provided by the law to be an offence, he shall not be punished, but the Court shall have the power as follows...

 

And the following;

 

http://www.tourismthailand.org/About-Thailand/Passport-Visa

 

The penalty for overstaying your visa is typically 500B per day, with a 20,000B limit. Fines can be paid upon departure at the airport. If you've only overstayed one day, you may not have to pay any fine or you may have to pay 1,000 baht, depending on the current regulations. Children less than 14 years old who are traveling with a parent or guardian are not required to pay any fines for overstays.

[thaiclan]

46 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It is also possible for children to get a non-o visa to visit their parents if they are here on a long stay visa or extension of stay.

 

Unless the visa the parent has does not permit dependents, such as Dad's Elite single visa or Mother non-O which is already attached to eldest daughters Ed visa.  Sigh......

[thaiclan]

44 minutes ago, dentonian said:

The law is that children under the age of 15 are not fined for an overstay which does not exempt them from needing visas.

 

There used to be a big sign at the airport that stated children under the age of 17 were exempt from any overstay fines.

The sign has been gone for about 2 years already....did they lower the age to 15 also?......if so I wonder why....?

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, thaiclan said:

 

There used to be a big sign at the airport that stated children under the age of 17 were exempt from any overstay fines.

The sign has been gone for about 2 years already....did they lower the age to 15 also?......if so I wonder why....?

Perhaps they took it down since it was incorrect. It has been under the age of 15 for many years and has not changed.

The banning for overstay does not apply to those under the age of 18.

[thaiclan]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Perhaps they took it down since it was incorrect. It has been under the age of 15 for many years and has not changed.

The banning for overstay does not apply to those under the age of 18.

 

I tried to google the image of the sign but yielded nowt.
However this is written " Children less than 14 years old who are traveling with a parent or guardian are not required to pay any fines for overstays. "  on the Official Tourism website.http://www.tourismthailand.org/About-Thailand/Passport-Visa

 

That is the problem in Thailand, the rules are not black and white.  We also got very different information from various "official" channels.

One embassy even granted a 3 month non-O because in their words "it's a grey area"! LOL  We have little hope of making sense of the rules if even official representatives are not very sure themselves!

[Carib]

3 minutes ago, thaiclan said:

 

I tried to google the image of the sign but yielded nowt.
However this is written " Children less than 14 years old who are traveling with a parent or guardian are not required to pay any fines for overstays. "  on the Official Tourism website.http://www.tourismthailand.org/About-Thailand/Passport-Visa

 

That is the problem in Thailand, the rules are not black and white.  We also got very different information from various "official" channels.

One embassy even granted a 3 month non-O because in their words "it's a grey area"! LOL  We have little hope of making sense of the rules if even official representatives are not very sure themselves!

 

In post #6 I added a link to the translation of the penal code which describes what you are looking for I think..

[ubonjoe]

23 minutes ago, thaiclan said:

However this is written " Children less than 14 years old who are traveling with a parent or guardian are not required to pay any fines for overstays. "  on the Official Tourism website.

It is a common mix up you will find of the under or over 14.

I think it is really under the age of 15 since that is the age when children become responsible for certain things.

 

[darrendsd]

Talking about overstay fines for children is not the issue here, the OP has been told by Immigration that he must get a visa for his child as they enter Thailand frequently

 

If he did not get the Elite card then it's more than likely his child would have been refused entry at some point by using the visa exempt method, he has been warned about using this method by Immigration already

 

 

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, darrendsd said:

Talking about overstay fines for children is not the issue here, the OP has been told by Immigration that he must get a visa for his child as they enter Thailand frequently

The overstay fine issue is relevant since many people are under the incorrect impression that children do not need to have visas or a extension to stay in the country because of it.

[darrendsd]

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The overstay fine issue is relevant since many people are under the incorrect impression that children do not need to have visas or a extension to stay in the country because of it.

 

Understood but the OP has clearly been told he needs to get a visa for his child, that is the main point he has made, it is more of a issue for the OP as his family travel in and out of Thailand very frequently,

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, thaiclan said:

 

Unless the visa the parent has does not permit dependents, such as Dad's Elite single visa or Mother non-O which is already attached to eldest daughters Ed visa.  Sigh......

 

Surely they should be able to get a single entry non-O to visit said parents? The prohibition would be on the extension of stay as a dependent?

[LivinLOS]

18 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

Surely they should be able to get a single entry non-O to visit said parents? The prohibition would be on the extension of stay as a dependent?

 

Can only get if theres a non imm to base it on.. Seems parents are on elite (so no dependant option) and mothers non imm already does a different child. 

 

I was not aware that given sufficient funds were shown 2 children couldnt be attached to the same non imm O. What about a single parent with twins ?? 

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I was not aware that given sufficient funds were shown 2 children couldnt be attached to the same non imm O. What about a single parent with twins ?? 

If a parent is on an extension of stay that allows for dependents to get extension there is no limit on the number of them.

The mother in this case has an extension based upon being the parent of a child attending school. Only one parent can get the extension for each child. That type of extension does not allow for dependent extensions to be granted.

[LivinLOS]

OK that explains the whys.. Didnt realize all extensions of stay (of non imms) couldnt be used for a child. 

 

It is a odd one. 

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

OK that explains the whys.. Didnt realize all extensions of stay (of non imms) couldnt be used for a child. 

 

It is a odd one. 

Clause 2.20 of  Police Order 327/2557  basis for extension of stay lists which extensions allow for dependent extension and the requirements for them.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Can only get if theres a non imm to base it on.. Seems parents are on elite (so no dependant option) and mothers non imm already does a different child.

 

In this case the mother's non imm is based on the child's visa, not the other way round.

 

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Clause 2.20 of  Police Order 327/2557  basis for extension of stay lists which extensions allow for dependent extension and the requirements for them.

 

Good to know, thanks

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Clause 2.20 of  Police Order 327/2557  basis for extension of stay lists which extensions allow for dependent extension and the requirements for them.

 

I note that there is no restriction to only 1 parent per 2.11 which actually states 'in the case of parents' and requires the funds to be ' under the father's or the mother's name'.

 

Yet there appears to be a restriction applied to 1 child, 1 parent?

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Yet there appears to be a restriction applied to 1 child, 1 parent?

There is certainly a restriction to only one parent per child being able to get the extension.

Everything written is singular in the clause.

It might be clearer in the original order in Thai that does not translate well to English.

[chickenrunCM]

10 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Talking about overstay fines for children is not the issue here, the OP has been told by Immigration that he must get a visa for his child as they enter Thailand frequently

 

If he did not get the Elite card then it's more than likely his child would have been refused entry at some point by using the visa exempt method, he has been warned about using this method by Immigration already

 

 

OMG, 

so you will say, that if they travel to thailand and the parents have valid Visas or extension, the IMO will denien a 8 y old child entry? 

use your brain, this will never happen! Her will be granted Entry without any problem. Or the IMO has to offer a Visa possibility for the kid. 

Buy a Elite card for the kid is isane and a taff joke for all who live and work in Thailand.

Never ever IMO would stop a child at the border! For what reason? work illegal? 5555

[Carib]

2 minutes ago, chickenrunCM said:

OMG, 

so you will say, that if they travel to thailand and the parents have valid Visas or extension, the IMO will denien a 8 y old child entry? 

use your brain, this will never happen! Her will be granted Entry without any problem. Or the IMO has to offer a Visa possibility for the kid. 

Buy a Elite card for the kid is isane and a taff joke for all who live and work in Thailand.

Never ever IMO would stop a child at the border! For what reason? work illegal? 5555

 

Children must have a visa. Allowing them in without one could mean in time that they dissapear of the radar and become "illegal" adults. Visa`s and the `permission to stay` after being allowed to enter is a way to keep track of the ones one allowed entry.  Just allowing them entrance without further ado will not happen in your home country either. 

[chickenrunCM]

Just now, Carib said:

 

Children must have a visa. Allowing them in without one could mean in time that they dissapear of the radar and become "illegal" adults. Visa`s and the `permission to stay` after being allowed to enter is a way to keep track of the ones one allowed entry.  Just allowing them entrance without further ado will not happen in your home country either. 

they do not need a visa, because entry will be 30 days entry stamp, nothing else

last year my son was under 15 and he was here on overstay for 8 month, now as he is 15 he has education visa, he never had a problem, not in school or travelling in Thailand.

 

and You forget that the kid is 8 years old and to become illegal adult would take 10 years and easy to track as parents have Visa. 

You can´t force familys to pay 500000 thb for a visa for a kid. and as I told before no IMO would do this at the airport, would stamp kids passport all the time with 30 days

[gemguy]

I went thought this sort of thing before......several times now ..before exiting the country with my Child.

They do not fine the child for overstay.

When the child enters Thailand, each and every time they will give the Child 30 days at the Airport ( maybe some nationalities more or less, as I do not know but my child is given 30 days each time) and then, in effect, overstays after the 30 days ends.

When you go to the airport to exit Thailand they take you and child off to the side and remove the TM card and write some notes in a book and then they stamp the child's passport and write some notes and dates within the stamp and hand back the passport with a smile ...and nothing else.

In theory the immigration will tell you it is best to have the child issued a visa and then apply for an extension that would be time coordinated with either parents long term immigration status.

So, if the father is working, for example, and has or had a Non "B" visa and then the yearly extension already granted and all that is entailed then the child could be coordinated with the fathers immigrations status and issued, I believe, a Non "O" Visa first, for 90 days and then the 1 year extension applied for and the child's immigration status is extended every time at the same time as the fathers extension ...or the child can be coordinated with the Mothers long term immigration status and the child's immigration status extended every time the mother has to extend her stay.

So, if you do arrange for a 90 day Visa for the child and then the 1 year extension for the child, they say ( they told me)  the child's Visa or the extension will end when the parents immigration status ends and is due to be renewed ..so, if the child is in the country and born here but has not left the country yet then the first time period for the child could be a shorter extension period than 1 year, having been coordinated with the expiry date of the parents extension   

Confusing ..Yes...No??

In theory you are supposed to exit with the child and obtain a visa for the child and then apply for the childs (1st ) extension while the extension ends when the parents extension ends and needs to be renewed....then the next time you coordinate both extensions for the child and the parent at the same time.

More confusing ..Yes......No?

So, that being the case most parents do not exit or want to exit the country and do all of what is required or necessary to be done to have your child's immigration status coordinated with one of the parents immigration status if the child is already in the country for a long time and in effect overstayed. 

Of course if you are coming here for say the "first time" and the child has never stayed a long time and in effect overstayed, you can apply for the child's Visa at a Thai  Embassy or Thai Consulate and receive the visa for the child when the visa application is also applied for the first time for the Mother and or the Father then the child has the same amount of time given for the Visa and then when the extension for the Mother or Father is applied for then the child is given an extension also and "coordinated"  with one of the chosen parents

Now, to make matters all the more challenging.... I was told....by the Changwattana immigration officers ....If the child has been here for some time and in and out of the country several times already and having no proper ( Long Term ) immigration status and NOW you want to obtain for the child the correct long term immigration status then you are required to go over to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and explain to them that you want to obtain the proper immigration status for the child and have the child's long term immigration status coordinated with one of the parents already existing long term immigration status.....( or extension)

The officer used the word "attached" , so to speak, and have the child attached ,so to speak, to one of the parents ..and which ever parents long term immigration status is more appropriate....is what I was told. 

I was told that they will require you to fill out forms and verify the child is your child and require the original birth certificate as to when and where he was born in Thailand and the citizenship papers of the child and relevant to the child's issued passport and the passport details and a marriage certificate ( if you are married )  and a whole load of documentation that, in effect, is like a dozier of  pre-prepared documentation, in triplicate form, and all signed and stamped by the Ministry of Foreign affairs and to be taken with you when you exit the country with the child and go to any Thai Embassy or Thai Consulate and apply for the 90 day "O" visa and then enter back into the country on the 90 day Visa and then apply for the child's 1 year extension to be coordinated with the parents 1 year extension and ends when the parents extension ends.

That is what I was told.

When asked:  Can this be done in the country?  ..The answer is: NO ...NO from everyone you ask...as in NO ......as there is a procedure to be followed....of course.....

OK, a procedure to be followed .... And what happens if I just show up at an embassy with the child and apply for the child to receive a 90 day "O" visa with the intent to apply for the 1 year extension for the child....WITHOUT the Ministry of Foreign Affairs documentation and Pre-Approval?????

The answer was: You may be turned down, probably turned down???.....if you do not have the documentation from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as the child has already been in the country without the proper or approved immigration status and in effect overstayed  ...but...as you already know,  they do not fine you or the child for over stay...BUT whatever Thai Embassy or Thai Consulate that you choose to apply at for the child's 90 day "O" visa is not our concern so, Maybe Yes they will issue a 90 Day "O" visa or Maybe Not....... but we recommend you should first go to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and get all the proper documentation so you will not be turned down...but.... They may still turn you down.......We do not know......So sorry about that......Is what I was told.

"Can this all be arranged  here inside Thailand ...for a price....??? I asked"

The Answer was NO....

The answer was : NEVER MIND just come and go as you have been doing as they Do Not fine a child under 15 for overstay and they will not arrest the child or arrest the parents or fine the parent(s) for the child's improper immigration status...and in effect overstay.

Do not worry.......I was told ..repeatedly.

I was told: Meantime, You decide what you want to do but what we explained to you is what has to be done if you want your child to have the proper long term immigration status  ...or do nothing and carry on as before.

 

The exact details and the type of visa and or extension the child would be issued can be explained by the immigration as they explained to me .....BUT......here is the thing...no matter who you talk to, including lawyers, and or immigration officials they will tell you the same thing....No problem and no need to have a child ( under 15 years old ) on a Visa or Extension as the immigration authorities DO NOT enforce the overstay rules and or laws on a child under 15 if accompanied by the parents and it is clear the child is exiting with the parents.

Once, My wife and I were asked if the child was ours...just to ask I guess and make certain while I think the officer was just curious more so than asking for any legal matters.

Meantime when you talk to immigration officials or lawyers at a  law firm that has knowledge of the rules and regulations and laws pertaining to children entering and exiting the Kingdom and their long term status they all tell you, in theory, you should get the child arranged to be on long term immigration status...just in case  ....but if you do not then never mind because they do not enforce the overstay aspect of what ever immigration status your child is currently on or has at present.

*** I am only telling you what I was told when I asked about this 2 times now and the same answers each time.

Cheers

 

[Carib]

7 minutes ago, chickenrunCM said:

they do not need a visa, because entry will be 30 days entry stamp, nothing else

last year my son was under 15 and he was here on overstay for 8 month, now as he is 15 he has education visa, he never had a problem, not in school or travelling in Thailand.

 

and You forget that the kid is 8 years old and to become illegal adult would take 10 years and easy to track as parents have Visa. 

You can´t force familys to pay 500000 thb for a visa for a kid. and as I told before no IMO would do this at the airport, would stamp kids passport all the time with 30 days

 

Not all officers are inclined to hand out a 30 day stamp, some parents are given the runaround in Thailand to make "better' arrangements. Especially if they see that the parents are there for a longer stay.

 

I wasn't talking about an eight year old child, but about children in general, and that includes youngster who are over 14 years of age. Does not take them long to become adults. There is no need to pay for an elite visa for children, embassies sometimes give them a 'Non O' visa, just to be pragmatic. An example of that has been mentioned already in an earlier post.  Personally I would never risk traveling towards a country without making sure that a valid visa was provided for the whole family. 

 

[HerbalEd]

1 hour ago, chickenrunCM said:

OMG, 

so you will say, that if they travel to thailand and the parents have valid Visas or extension, the IMO will denien a 8 y old child entry? 

use your brain, this will never happen! Her will be granted Entry without any problem. Or the IMO has to offer a Visa possibility for the kid. 

Buy a Elite card for the kid is isane and a taff joke for all who live and work in Thailand.

Never ever IMO would stop a child at the border! For what reason? work illegal? 5555

Do you know this for a fact? I'm betting, no.

[SOTIRIOS]

...surely there are other options......