The week that was in Thailand news: Thai children and the end of English dominance.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

4 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Me to. We will share the word pernickety or is it persnikety after all whats a few grammar errors among friends.  

persnickety. Persnickety is the American word for fussy, fastidious, or highly detail-oriented. Pernickety is the British word.Mar 29, 2015

Pernickety vs. persnickety - Grammarist

grammarist.com/usage/pernickety-persnickety/

 

Interesting! I did not know there were 2 spellings. You learn something everyday. 

 

Of course, phonemically, they are misspelled:  UK  /pəˈnɪk.ə.ti/ US  /pɚˈsnɪk.ə.t̬i/

Notice the 2 schwas. The "u" is supposed to be the letter of choice for the schwa as in "but, nut,hut,...". Of course, these words might be misspelled, in which case the ones above would be spelled mostly correctly, although the "ck" is completely superfluous. No wonder kids cannot focus in class or follow rules.

 

 

[elgordo38]

1 minute ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Interesting! I did not know there were 2 spellings. You learn something everyday. 

 

Of course, phonemically, they are misspelled:  UK  /pəˈnɪk.ə.ti/ US  /pɚˈsnɪk.ə.t̬i/

Notice the 2 schwas. The "u" is supposed to be the letter of choice for the schwa as in "but, nut,hut,...". Of course, these words might be misspelled, in which case the ones above would be spelled mostly correctly, although the "ck" is completely superfluous. No wonder kids cannot focus in class or follow rules.

 

 

Yes we do oh enlightened one. 

[spidermike007]

Yes, the statement about the lingua franca future of Thai, was astonishing to anyone with an inquiring mind. It is always kind of amazing to me how little Thailand rates on the world stage. Outside of Thailand, few ever mention the country. Once in a while it comes up in conversation since people know I live here. But, how often do you see Thailand spoken of in the media? Now that most Westerners are losing interest in Thailand as a tourist destination, due to two very hard years spent sabotaging the industry, by both the PM, and the TAT, they are not even discussing it as a place to visit anymore.  

 

So, the very possibility of it becoming a world language would to some extent be based on the presumption that Thailand is becoming more and more important a nation. Perhaps it is all of the Pulitzers, Peabodys, Oscars, Nobel Peace prize awards, Olympic gold medals, World Cup victories, and other international recognitions that Thailand is achieving? 

 

Talk about myopia. Talk about living within the ivory tower. Talk about being out of touch with his people. Talk about a limited world view. What can one say? 

[Inepto Cracy]

8 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

That's all very well but I get annoyed when native speakers confuse "lose" with "loose." Can't even spell a four-letter word. No to mention in predictable and invariable confusion with they're, their and there. My God, is it so difficult to get it right?

Most commentators cannot even get "of" and "off" right, let alone "to" and "too".

English just seems so "damn" or "dam" difficult for native English speakers "to", "too" or "tooo"?

[wakeupplease]

As near to the point as you can go well done

American English need that for the computer to work?

English English many do not know it

Some like boris do not know what it means Ref When a British person leaves Heathrow and.....

So how and where do I learn Thai, as UNI here are carp and wife speaks at the speed of sound

 

But I guess I will not be around when the main language in the word changes

 

look forward to next weeks summery

[hawker9000]

15 hours ago, elgordo38 said:

Just had to give you a like for all the work you put into this. 6500 hundred languages in the world amazing. Mandarin Chinese being the most popular so maybe the learning should be more slanted in that direction than English. Thanks Google love yah. 

 

LOL   Well, using that reasoning, we should all convert to Islam...

 

It's hardly a question of "how many"; it's more a question of "where".  If I'm in China (or I guess swimming anywhere in the S. China Sea), Mandarin Chinese would be most useful no doubt.  But New York, London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Berlin, Ankara, Benghazi, Johannesburg, Tokyo, Sydney, Mumbai, Athens, Geneva, Copenhagen, most of the rest of the world...    not so much...

 

Now, as for Thai being the world's "lingua franca".   Words fail me. 

 

 

 

[hugh2121]

21 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Okay, the PM might not have a degree in linguistics or English, but he is right that the English spelling system sucks and no one (including Rooster59) seems to be able to fix a problem that affects, oh, just 1.5 billion people trying to learn the stupid system. Who cares about 1.5 billion people on Earth? Just deal with it! Isn't it fun to point fingers at others for incompetence (because then one does not have to speak much about one's own incompetence.). If that is the epitome of mismanagement, I don't know what iZ. 

 

Surely, people know that English has the worst spelling system ever created and managed. It has an alphabet that has ONLY 26 letters (making the Thai alphabet look like an elephant), but English has 44 phonemes/sounds. Oops! We lost some somewhere! Where are my glasses? Oh! And, to amuse those little learners and those English teachers, they thought it would be fun to have 205 or so ways to spell those 44 or so phonemes that are only represented by 26 letters. So! Oops! But, just learn the 80+ spelling rules. So, when you read this word, use the rules, one by one,... It is easy! Don't forget of course the hundreds of thousands of exceptions (that are explained in those extra rules). Rule Britannia! Rule! Indeed! NOT! Maybe that PM was not completely wrong. (Reference for those doubters: http://improvingenglishspelling.blogspot.com/ or, even more damning, https://www.ualberta.ca/science/science-news/2016/august/sorry-chomsky-english-spelling-is-hardly-close-to-optimal. Here is what it looks like, just for 10 phonemes in English.

 

 

Oops! Sorry! Got the wrong file! They kind of look the same, don't they?

 

 

 

 

Sure, sure, but if we did not have all of those different spellings for those different sounds, how could one possibly disambiguate "ad" and "add", and such?  Except NO ONE has any trouble understanding these words (heterographs) when they are not spelled (when they are uttered, when they are pronounced). Oops! How many of you misspelled "their, there, they're"?

 

There is something rotten! But, in what state? Of course, THAT cannot be fixed! LOL Where have you heard that one before? And, everyone was laughing at the absurd level of incompetence and complacency of ... I mean ... uv ....

 

But, these teachers, these students, these kids,... can they do anything right? LOL

 

 

 

 

 

?

[thaiturkey]

CONSULAR EXPLANATION

The improved service is explained by the key word HONORARY !

This is a public spirited volunteer, not some lazy "Ham Shanker" employed by the government

[Dustdevil]

20 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Mmmm! True! It is annoying because it confuses you when you read the wrong spelling. They get confused when they must write the wrong spelling (because these words are misspelled). Why are so many people gatting it wrong? They are not misspelling the "L". You have found a way, maybe tricks to know. To be honest, knowing that you know is also a way to stroke your ego, isn't it? Your ability is to memorize. The ones who are getting it wrong cannot memorize these things, cannot be bothered, might have a more analytical mind that values logic which creates interference. The truth is that the "s" that has 2 pronunciations or the 2 phonemes (/s/ and /z/) that has 1 spelling is anything but smart!  Then, we thrown another curve ball at people's brain and spell the (vowel phonemes), the same phoneme, 2 different ways when it should NOT. The "o" and the "oo" are pronounced in the same manner! So, the two elements are contradictory. I don't think it is that easy, unless you memorize it. So, the right spelling is lose > looze (actually) and loose > loose or loosse (since "s" is notorious for being/z/). Of course, there are hundreds of thousands of these to memorize which then, using that metric, is not easy at all.

 

The "they're/their/there" is a different monster, in my mind, since there is a grammatical element, which messes up the grammatical logic or system  if words are misspelled. However, the spelling of "there" is annoyingly wrong, when you think of the spelling of "here"! On the other hand, spelling them all "ther" would be problematic since the "r" in the subject/verb combo is a verb. I guess if there were so much time devoted to spelling, maybe there could be more time devoted to grammar. More time to brainwash kids that ethics matters? Imagine the possibility? Imagine!

 

 

 

I know but through years and years of repetition through reading, people should get it right. Don't they ever read?? After all, they mostly get other simple words right. There is one caveat, a well-known phenomenon, where we know what word to write and how to spell it; we might even have degrees in print journalism and linguistics, but sometimes the interlocutor between brain and fingers goes awry and we might type "rite" instead of "right," for example.

[elgordo38]

8 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

 

LOL   Well, using that reasoning, we should all convert to Islam...

 

It's hardly a question of "how many"; it's more a question of "where".  If I'm in China (or I guess swimming anywhere in the S. China Sea), Mandarin Chinese would be most useful no doubt.  But New York, London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Berlin, Ankara, Benghazi, Johannesburg, Tokyo, Sydney, Mumbai, Athens, Geneva, Copenhagen, most of the rest of the world...    not so much...

 

Now, as for Thai being the world's "lingua franca".   Words fail me. 

 

 

 

Yes time marches on a few years, decades maybe and this all could change the Chinese are definitely on a mission 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

4 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

I know but through years and years of repetition through reading, people should get it right. Don't they ever read?? After all, they mostly get other simple words right. There is one caveat, a well-known phenomenon, where we know what word to write and how to spell it; we might even have degrees in print journalism and linguistics, but sometimes the interlocutor between brain and fingers goes awry and we might type "rite" instead of "right," for example.

 

Well! As an ex-teacher, having to read all kinds of errors, it had a similar effect: I started to memorize all of these errors, adding one more level of complexity in my work! 

 

Actually, brain research on bilinguals seems to point that we (some of us) seem to use a number of brain areas and some areas more than others, depending on the language that we read: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026113837.htm

 

Quote

While in Basque-speaking bilinguals the dorsal stream, related to phonology, is activated more, in English-speaking bilinguals the ventral stream, responsible for meaning, works harder.

Quote

Basque, a language that is read as it is written, enables readers to make a clear connection between grapheme and phoneme. English, on the other hand, requires a more complex process in which the reader has to take into account certain rules of pronunciation.

 

Using this bit,...

 

 

and this,...

 

 

we see what is going on. Learning English is essentially like reading Chinese characters, but, depending on how one has learned to read English or believe one should, the dorsal stream area (dealing with clear, regular  decoding) could be activated. In other words, it is possible that the system's ambiguity (regular/phonemic versus logographic/Chinese) might interfere with someone's ability to read (and write). Writing adds another level of complexity for sure.

 

In the research, though, the people were adults with years of practice and memorizing, but they used different areas depending on the language. That is very interesting. Suppose one uses the wrong area? Sometimes one area? And, then, there is writing, typing, grammar,...

 

When people are writing, say, "write" as "rite", guess which part they are activating. It could be a simple short-circuiting process. "guide, site, bite, ... (ah!) rite" . Keep in mind that the word "rite" also exists. So, one must recall which is which, which adds more levels of complexity.

 

The word "awry" that you wrote demands a reading using which part of the brain? If you use the other, reading and writing the word will give "ary"! More llogicaly "ury" actually. Rite? I mean ... right?

 

The solution? Make the spelling system either completely like Chinese or make it more like Basque, Spanish. 

 

If 1/2 of Britons cannot spell, is it that 1/2 of them are dumb or is it that the system is? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11142501/Half-of-Britons-cant-spell-common-words.html)

 

1/2 of a population (and of course other English countries have the same issues) cannot be wrong! 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

5 hours ago, hugh2121 said:

 

?

 

How about this? http://improvingenglishspelling.blogspot.com/

[EnlightenedAtheist]

1 hour ago, elgordo38 said:

Yes time marches on a few years, decades maybe and this all could change the Chinese are definitely on a mission 

 

Quote

Labor relations are one of the most commonly cited issues in the China-Africa engagement. Irene's suggestions for bilingual labor mediators at each factory and random safety inspections are good ones -- but hard to put into practice. Safety inspections with bite require a government that cares about workers. However, with the rapid expansion of Chinese language courses in Africa, the language of advocacy, labor relations, and mediation might shift from being exclusively English/French/Portuguese to include a focus on communication with the continent's newly significant investors from China.

 

http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/2013/12/nigeria-labour-practices-in-chinese.html

[maewang99]

good idea. stop teaching English, especially grammar and spelling.  it's tough for many Thai school kids to have to study at least 2 new formal languages... i.e. for most of the north for which daily conversation is in Kam Mueang (with family and friends) they also must learn the official high diglossia "pasa Thai" (for talking with teachers, farlang and watching TV) ... on top of English as yet a ****third**** language. 

then they can learn other stuff.

[elgordo38]

17 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

 

http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/2013/12/nigeria-labour-practices-in-chinese.html

Yes your right if the Chinese had the good intentions it could work. Chinese workers overseers are often shunned in the country where they set up business. To start teaching Chinese to the locals well is a hint of what the Chinese are aiming for. They call it the Peoples Republic of China drop the Peoples part all together. People are flooding into Beijing with grievances that they wish to present to what they think is a honest and fair governing body. This body has no desire to listen to their grievances. Some have been there for decades to get the governments attention. It was just shown again and I watched it for the second time on Channel Asia. These people just don't seem to fit the model of the good little Chinese worker who asks no questions. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

40 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Yes your right if the Chinese had the good intentions it could work. Chinese workers overseers are often shunned in the country where they set up business. To start teaching Chinese to the locals well is a hint of what the Chinese are aiming for. They call it the Peoples Republic of China drop the Peoples part all together. People are flooding into Beijing with grievances that they wish to present to what they think is a honest and fair governing body. This body has no desire to listen to their grievances. Some have been there for decades to get the governments attention. It was just shown again and I watched it for the second time on Channel Asia. These people just don't seem to fit the model of the good little Chinese worker who asks no questions. 

 

That's what the colonial powers did. The Chinese are not an anomaly. They are following the rule: the I-have-the-money-I give-you-work-Do-as-I-say-and-speak-my-language rule. They are not the anomaly. And, to some degree, this is happening in Thailand, as some of the local population and industry must learn and use/provide service in English where foreigners are likely to show up. I am glad they are. On the other hand, I might not be here if that wasn't so. I am getting old to learn a whole new language in which I will not likely have a philosophical discussion with any of the locals and I have other things to attend to than to learn another language (a third language).

[EnlightenedAtheist]

57 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

good idea. stop teaching English, especially grammar and spelling.  it's tough for many Thai school kids to have to study at least 2 new formal languages... i.e. for most of the north for which daily conversation is in Kam Mueang (with family and friends) they also must learn the official high diglossia "pasa Thai" (for talking with teachers, farlang and watching TV) ... on top of English as yet a ****third**** language. 

then they can learn other stuff.

 

Must they learn to write the first one? How different are they lexically, grammatically?

[sambum]

22 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

There are hundreds of thousands of misspelled words in the lexicon. I went too fast or I am getting lazy. Remember the diagram? There should be one and only one way to write any phoneme. There are 205 ways of spelling 44 or so. Methinks the problem is more the 160 or so incredibly stupid spellings of phonemes.

 

If a car has faulty breaks, do we blame the driver for crashing it? His parents?

 

If the schwa in words can be any vowel as shown in the diagram, then there are going to be a boat loads of words that are misspelled. Take the word "hundreds". It looks like a beautifully correctly spelled word, until you listen to it. Both vowels are pronounced roughly the same way, but are not spelled the same way. Both of these vowels are called schwas. Usually, these are unstressed and reduced, but the stressed ones are virtually the same phoneme. So, this word (like word, if you think about it ) is misspelled in the lexicon. It should be spelled: hundruds or hendreds. (I am not touching at the "s" sounding like a /z/, btw.) It is called "consistency". How do we expect people to follow rules, when the very first ones they learn are broken time and time again. In fact, it is even crazier than this because we are urging people to break the rule. No, do not write like it sounds. No! Do not write "peepul"? That's wrong! Write "people"! I know we are breaking several rules, here, but that's OKAY! LOL

 

(Note: I am lazy (not paid a penny to write this) and do not like to proofread.)

 

There used to be a system in use in the UK where primary school children up to a certain age were taught to spell the word as it was pronounced e.g.your example above,  "peepul". (It had a certain name, but I forget it as it was after my time!) At a certain age they then had to begin to use use the correct form of spelling!! As you say, things are confusing enough as they are, so I believe it was abandoned after a short time.

 

However, I disagree with you on the point that the 2 vowels in the word "hundreds" sound the same - I think they are totally different if the word is pronounced correctly! "Hendreds"? Sounds like a chicken with a Bob Marley hairstyle!!! 

 

We also have the different pronunciations of words caused by different geographical locations, and on this I agree that for a foreigner this must be very confusing (e.g. the "Geordie" accent, where "hinnie" has nothing to do with chickens!) Also the American pronunciation of "New York" - (NOO York - when you go to church, you don't sit in a "poo" you sit in a "pew", do you not?)

 

[elgordo38]

2 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

That's what the colonial powers did. The Chinese are not an anomaly. They are following the rule: the I-have-the-money-I give-you-work-Do-as-I-say-and-speak-my-language rule. They are not the anomaly. And, to some degree, this is happening in Thailand, as some of the local population and industry must learn and use/provide service in English where foreigners are likely to show up. I am glad they are. On the other hand, I might not be here if that wasn't so. I am getting old to learn a whole new language in which I will not likely have a philosophical discussion with any of the locals and I have other things to attend to than to learn another language (a third language).

Danke love conversing with you we seem to reach a higher plain. My thoughts on learning Thai as well age plus a built in translator, negotiator. Looking forward to your posts as always. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

1 hour ago, sambum said:

There used to be a system in use in the UK where primary school children up to a certain age were taught to spell the word as it was pronounced e.g.your example above,  "peepul". (It had a certain name, but I forget it as it was after my time!) At a certain age they then had to begin to use use the correct form of spelling!! As you say, things are confusing enough as they are, so I believe it was abandoned after a short time.

 

However, I disagree with you on the point that the 2 vowels in the word "hundreds" sound the same - I think they are totally different if the word is pronounced correctly! "Hendreds"? Sounds like a chicken with a Bob Marley hairstyle!!! 

 

We also have the different pronunciations of words caused by different geographical locations, and on this I agree that for a foreigner this must be very confusing (e.g. the "Geordie" accent, where "hinnie" has nothing to do with chickens!) Also the American pronunciation of "New York" - (NOO York - when you go to church, you don't sit in a "poo" you sit in a "pew", do you not?)

 

 

Well, kids do spell the "invented way" as it sometimes called naturally. ALL of them do (unless they have had time and experiences to see the word first). Teachers teach the alphabet. Kids practice using it thinking that this is going to be it, that the system is obviously phonemic. Then, they are told that they will have to --in essence-- misspell words, which is apparently the right thing to do. It is all very damaging. The implementation of using the alphabet and this experiment show that the ones making the decision are useless. 

 

While, technically, you are correct about the pronunciation of the vowel phonemes in "hundred"

 

(UK  /ˈhʌn.drəd/ US  /ˈhʌn.drəd/  ), ...

 

... an eminent linguist argues quite well the error that some lexicographers make: http://linguisticmystic.com/2012/10/17/whats-the-difference-between-schwa-and-wedge/

 

This guy is WIll Styler,  a Post-Doctoral Research Fellow at the University of Michigan Department of Linguistics, working with [...]. His research specialization is in acoustic phonetics and speech perception, with a strongly technical and computational approach (http://savethevowels.org/will/)

 

Apparently we are verbotten to copy more than 3 lines. I urge people to read the full explanation, without which the person is not given a fair deal:

Quote

 

In General American English, there is simply no way to say the word “cut” without an /ʌ/ (still having it recognizable to listeners as “cut”).

 

The /ʌ/ is absolutely essential to the word’s identity, whereas /ə/ is the surface result of a phonological phenomenon which reduces some vowels in unstressed syllables. That, right there, is the fundamental difference between these two sounds. It’s not the sound, but the origin of the sound.

 

 

So sorry, to me and him (and I would argue a lot of people) it is not anything but a schwa (one reduced and one that is not).

 

The dialectal issue has been used for centuries to prevent a reform, but the idea of using a new (like a neutral--English-dialect as found in the chart under the diaphoneme left-hand part of the chart) AND introduce it to Grade 1 kids,... (and only to kids in schools hidden for the general public for 12 or so years) would be the best plan. This plan is explained in detail here. (No, it is not a three-liner of an explanation because, well, this is not a three-liner of an issue) Complex problems demands complex plans. That means ... reading about the idea. I could be more concise. Here is the concise version:

 

MAIN SINE QUA NON CONDITIONS for a reform (Short “how” answer)

1. No current population will be required to learn the new spellings. It will not be necessary.
2. Introduce the new system in whole to new students in level 1 (primary classes) called cohort 1 (or C1) and phase it in, one year at a time, thereafter.
3. C1 students and all future cohorts will be given bilingual, bicodal courses in the old system. They will be bicodal to some degree.
4. Other (English 1.0) students will get some instruction with the new system, but increasingly so for the cohorts that are closer to the new system’s cohorts .
5. Use diaphonemes (average of phonemic variations of main dialects) or some kind of agreed system depending on the countries/dialects willing and interested.
6. Use an extremely systematic and phonemic scheme with virtually no exceptions. No compromise.
7. Keep local, dialectal spoken/speech
8. Use computer technology to transcode material. Writers will see their work published in two varieties, or as desired by the customer using a free transcoding program.
9. No loss of jobs. Translators/interpreters will still be needed for the current population.

 

We are humans. The present situation is a huge problem, affecting 1.5 billions of people. We are humans and for 200 years we have not been able to solve this problem. We can build nuclear plants, bridges, satellites,... but we cannot fix a spelling system. What does that say about some of our leaders and some humans?

 

 

Words do hurt in more ways than one.

 

 

[sambum]

6 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Well, kids do spell the "invented way" as it sometimes called naturally. ALL of them do (unless they have had time and experiences to see the word first). Teachers teach the alphabet. Kids practice using it thinking that this is going to be it, that the system is obviously phonemic. Then, they are told that they will have to --in essence-- misspell words, which is apparently the right thing to do. It is all very damaging. The implementation of using the alphabet and this experiment show that the ones making the decision are useless. 

 

While, technically, you are correct about the pronunciation of the vowel phonemes in "hundred"

 

(UK  /ˈhʌn.drəd/ US  /ˈhʌn.drəd/  ), ...

 

... an eminent linguist argues quite well the error that some lexicographers make: http://linguisticmystic.com/2012/10/17/whats-the-difference-between-schwa-and-wedge/

 

This guy is WIll Styler,  a Post-Doctoral Research Fellow at the University of Michigan Department of Linguistics, working with [...]. His research specialization is in acoustic phonetics and speech perception, with a strongly technical and computational approach (http://savethevowels.org/will/)

 

Apparently we are verbotten to copy more than 3 lines. I urge people to read the full explanation, without which the person is not given a fair deal:

 

So sorry, to me and him (and I would argue a lot of people) it is not anything but a schwa (one reduced and one that is not).

 

The dialectal issue has been used for centuries to prevent a reform, but the idea of using a new (like a neutral--English-dialect as found in the chart under the diaphoneme left-hand part of the chart) AND introduce it to Grade 1 kids,... (and only to kids in schools hidden for the general public for 12 or so years) would be the best plan. This plan is explained in detail here. (No, it is not a three-liner of an explanation because, well, this is not a three-liner of an issue) Complex problems demands complex plans. That means ... reading about the idea. I could be more concise. Here is the concise version:

 

MAIN SINE QUA NON CONDITIONS for a reform (Short “how” answer)

1. No current population will be required to learn the new spellings. It will not be necessary.
2. Introduce the new system in whole to new students in level 1 (primary classes) called cohort 1 (or C1) and phase it in, one year at a time, thereafter.
3. C1 students and all future cohorts will be given bilingual, bicodal courses in the old system. They will be bicodal to some degree.
4. Other (English 1.0) students will get some instruction with the new system, but increasingly so for the cohorts that are closer to the new system’s cohorts .
5. Use diaphonemes (average of phonemic variations of main dialects) or some kind of agreed system depending on the countries/dialects willing and interested.
6. Use an extremely systematic and phonemic scheme with virtually no exceptions. No compromise.
7. Keep local, dialectal spoken/speech
8. Use computer technology to transcode material. Writers will see their work published in two varieties, or as desired by the customer using a free transcoding program.
9. No loss of jobs. Translators/interpreters will still be needed for the current population.

 

We are humans. The present situation is a huge problem, affecting 1.5 billions of people. We are humans and for 200 years we have not been able to solve this problem. We can build nuclear plants, bridges, satellites,... but we cannot fix a spelling system. What does that say about some of our leaders and some humans?

 

 

Words do hurt in more ways than one.

 

 

 

Phew! I must admit I am totally and absolutely confused, and English was my strong point at school!! But I do like the video!

[EnlightenedAtheist]

7 minutes ago, sambum said:

 

Phew! I must admit I am totally and absolutely confused, and English was my strong point at school!! But I do like the video!

 

Forgot to include the 3 sentence quote:

 

Quote

 

The /ʌ/ is absolutely essential to the word’s identity, whereas /ə/ is the surface result of a phonological phenomenon which reduces some vowels in unstressed syllables. That, right there, is the fundamental difference between these two sounds. It’s not the sound, but the origin of the sound.

Differentiating /ə/ vs. /ʌ/ in transcription

We’ve already established that these two sounds both sound alike. But chances are, if you’ve googled your way to this post, you’re doing an IPA transcription of a word, you’ve heard a vowel that sounds like “uh”, and you’re trying to figure out if it’s a schwa or a wedge. Here’s how:

 

 

One needs to go to the link to get the whole thing, if not one might not. It demands a little bit of work, I know. I am sorry. This is a complex problem.

[hugh2121]

20 hours ago, maewang99 said:

good idea. stop teaching English, especially grammar and spelling.  it's tough for many Thai school kids to have to study at least 2 new formal languages... i.e. for most of the north for which daily conversation is in Kam Mueang (with family and friends) they also must learn the official high diglossia "pasa Thai" (for talking with teachers, farlang and watching TV) ... on top of English as yet a ****third**** language. 

then they can learn other stuff.

So what language would you propose for ASEAN? Chinese maybe? That would be a real bonus for trading globally.

[elgordo38]

On 1/15/2017 at 1:25 PM, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Mmmm! True! It is annoying because it confuses you when you read the wrong spelling. They get confused when they must write the wrong spelling (because these words are misspelled). Why are so many people gatting it wrong? They are not misspelling the "L". You have found a way, maybe tricks to know. To be honest, knowing that you know is also a way to stroke your ego, isn't it? Your ability is to memorize. The ones who are getting it wrong cannot memorize these things, cannot be bothered, might have a more analytical mind that values logic which creates interference. The truth is that the "s" that has 2 pronunciations or the 2 phonemes (/s/ and /z/) that has 1 spelling is anything but smart!  Then, we thrown another curve ball at people's brain and spell the (vowel phonemes), the same phoneme, 2 different ways when it should NOT. The "o" and the "oo" are pronounced in the same manner! So, the two elements are contradictory. I don't think it is that easy, unless you memorize it. So, the right spelling is lose > looze (actually) and loose > loose or loosse (since "s" is notorious for being/z/). Of course, there are hundreds of thousands of these to memorize which then, using that metric, is not easy at all.

 

The "they're/their/there" is a different monster, in my mind, since there is a grammatical element, which messes up the grammatical logic or system  if words are misspelled. However, the spelling of "there" is annoyingly wrong, when you think of the spelling of "here"! On the other hand, spelling them all "ther" would be problematic since the "r" in the subject/verb combo is a verb. I guess if there were so much time devoted to spelling, maybe there could be more time devoted to grammar. More time to brainwash kids that ethics matters? Imagine the possibility? Imagine!

 

 

 

WOW you continue to amaze me you must have been a professor in another life. I forgot about verbs and adjectives long ago and the only combo I know is the one at McDonalds. Google is my best friend. Life has thrown a curve ball at my brain I can relate to that. I like reading your posts but there are times I come up with blanks and try to fill them in. Stimulating never the less. Carry on. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

1 hour ago, elgordo38 said:

WOW you continue to amaze me you must have been a professor in another life. I forgot about verbs and adjectives long ago and the only combo I know is the one at McDonalds. Google is my best friend. Life has thrown a curve ball at my brain I can relate to that. I like reading your posts but there are times I come up with blanks and try to fill them in. Stimulating never the less. Carry on. 

 

Sorry about that! It is hard to teach when you don't know your audience.

 

If you want the long-winded, better detailed explanations, here it is: http://reforming-english.blogspot.com/ If you click on the few tabs and even some of the links, it might start to make sense. It is complex to summarize this in just a few lines, especially when I have written much of it elsewhere. LOL

[elgordo38]

52 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Sorry about that! It is hard to teach when you don't know your audience.

 

If you want the long-winded, better detailed explanations, here it is: http://reforming-english.blogspot.com/ If you click on the few tabs and even some of the links, it might start to make sense. It is complex to summarize this in just a few lines, especially when I have written much of it elsewhere. LOL

I have another friend like you he goes into great detail railing against religion on FB. He is very intelligent as well with many professions under his belt. I have often wonder where your beliefs go in that direction when looking at your handle. I am a died in the wool atheist but respect other peoples beliefs as well. One must keep an open mind it makes us individually unique. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

9 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

I have another friend like you he goes into great detail railing against religion on FB. He is very intelligent as well with many professions under his belt. I have often wonder where your beliefs go in that direction when looking at your handle. I am a died in the wool atheist but respect other peoples beliefs as well. One must keep an open mind it makes us individually unique. 

 

Glad you are letting me know. But we are all individuals! Not sure why he is so. I did put this link about how some of us are hardwired: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161223115757.htm

 

I know my grand-mother on my mother side died when my mom was 10 and she has not gone in a church since. To me, there are too many examples like that around the globe that the idea seems preposterous at worse and useless at best. But, they can believe what they want as long as they don't try to convince people (kids, Hilltribe people,...) who don't know the full story. I don't particular the types of tax benefits some of these organizations get (and we can't). But the reason I created the avatar name is in response to the idea that the 2 words might be mutually exclusive. I had one of those Buddhist hardcore believers try to convince me I was stupid so that he could hope to change me that it has hardened my feelings against this religion. I do not fight them much (unless I am provoked). I guess you would prefer I were an agnostic, showing some flexibility and such. I am an atheist today, but if I were to see out of my own eyes evidence of ITS existence, I might consider the idea. At this time, the evidence is incontrovertible on one side (priests, Inquisition/Crusades, Muslim and Jewish extremism,...). How can I be open to that? My belief system is based on empirical data. I do understand that the mind can create make-beliefs, dreams, delusions, and such, though.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

47 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

I had one of those Buddhist hardcore believers try to convince me I was stupid so that he could hope to change me that it has hardened my feelings against this religion.

 Edit: I had one of those Buddhist hardcore believers try to convince me I was stupid so that he could hope to change me. That has hardened my feelings against this religion.

[Dustdevil]

On 1/14/2017 at 10:50 PM, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Thanks! 

 

Yes! I see the writing on the wall (pun intended) where the Chinese could impose their way (as they are trying to do in African now, from what I am seeing on their English-spoken Channel). While some people might want to learn Chinese, most would prefer looking at a tee (probably made in China, mind you) and drinking their tea! It is a beautiful-looking language, but it is not easy to learn! English isn't too! Lots of Chinatowns around the world. There is still time though. 

 

Btw, this is my work (and I can prove it), except the cable photograph! LOL

 

All the best to you.

Japanese did not become the world's commerce and transport language, and neither will Chinese. They're too difficult and time-consuming to learn to read and write. You do realize that you have to learn at least four or five thousand characters just to read a tabloid newspaper. Then you have to learn how to combine those thousands of characters to construct different meanings. As for grammar...English has 26 characters, Arabic 24 or 26, I forget which. Either one is more practical, but it's English that's been established.

[Dave67]

Love the world language take over from English. With my accent I'd be reduced to hand signals