Returning to U.K. after 11 years

Jip99 · February 10, 2017

18 minutes ago, JB300 said:

Ok, maybe the Gov website will convince you https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-overseas-visitors-hospital-charging-regulations/summary-of-changes-made-to-the-way-the-nhs-charges-overseas-visitors-for-nhs-hospital-care

Appreciate this next link is the Guardian but note the rule change coming into effect in April https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/06/hospitals-check-patients-entitled-free-nhs-care-law-jeremy-hunt

Nobody is doomed, if you're returning to settle in the UK you're entitled to NHS from day 1, if you're a "Health Tourist" (for our purposes, somebody who's lived outside of the UK for more than 6 months" you're not.

How people want to play/view those facts is up to them, but if I were in the OP's shoes I'd use 1-way tickets (not because I think I'd get "caught" more the flexibility it would give me when returning).

JB, you can post as many links as you wish (thanks for the www.gov.uk link, that is the most concise I have seen) it will not change my stance.

I maintain that should I need the services of the NHS (and I am able to travel to the UK) then I will neither be refused treatment, nor called upon to pay for that treatment.

As you rightly say, a one-way ticket will also be part of my strategy.

JB300 · February 10, 2017

JB, you can post as many links as you wish (thanks for the www.gov.uk link, that is the most concise I have seen) it will not change my stance.

I maintain that should I need the services of the NHS (and I am able to travel to the UK) then I will neither be refused treatment, nor called upon to pay for that treatment.

As you rightly say, a one-way ticket will also be part of my strategy.

And you are absolutely correct, if you are (or claim to be) resettling there.

If you turned up & said "Hey Doc, need a bit of treatment, any chance you can sort it out in the next 4 weeks or so only I need to get back home to Thailand"... you'd be charged.

This all started because I made a throw away (though based on "Facts") comment about NHS Eligibility, the real point here is that there's no way the OP can know for sure how long his stay will be so it makes more sense to get 1-way tickets to give himself maximum flexibility (he does sound like a flexible guy who can travel from any UK airport).

The fact that this is a plus on his side should he be asked about UK residency is a bonus (can also use it when talking to the DHSS etc...)

Anyways... I think enough talk of NHS, what's the weather like in the UK at the moment as I've just booked a 2 week trip back for March [emoji1303]

transam · February 10, 2017

There are a zillion Eastern Europeans "lost" and working in the UK, many of them for sure get injured doing their thing and end up at A & E.....Do they have a problem...NOOOOO.

JB300 · February 10, 2017

There are a zillion Eastern Europeans "lost" and working in the UK, many of them for sure get injured doing their thing and end up at A & E.....Do they have a problem...NOOOOO.

Sigh [emoji17]... and it's exactly because of this that the Government is tightening up on the rules (there are already NHS Trusts that ask for your passport & a Utility bill as proof of ID).

Rules change & are changing, if you want an obvious example of a rule changing relating to the NHS, look to the charge that Foreign spouses have to pay when settling in the UK.

But that didn't happen to your mates who settled there 20 years ago so it can't possibly happen now right?

transam · February 10, 2017

1 minute ago, JB300 said:

Sigh ... and it's exactly because of this that the Government is tightening up on the rules (there are already NHS Trusts that ask for your passport & a Utility bill as proof of ID).

Rules change & are changing, if you want an obvious example of a rule changing relating to the NHS, look to the charge that Foreign spouses have to pay when settling in the UK.

But that didn't happen to your mates who settled there 20 years ago so it can't possibly happen now right?

Do these foreign folk get shown the door with their arm hanging off....?

Jip99 · February 10, 2017

5 minutes ago, JB300 said:

Sigh ... and it's exactly because of this that the Government is tightening up on the rules (there are already NHS Trusts that ask for your passport & a Utility bill as proof of ID).

Rules change & are changing, if you want an obvious example of a rule changing relating to the NHS, look to the charge that Foreign spouses have to pay when settling in the UK.

But that didn't happen to your mates who settled there 20 years ago so it can't possibly happen now right?

I still believe that any ID checks are aimed at obvious 'Non-Brits'.

If I were to stroll in I (a) Doubt that I will be challenged and (b) Even not having a utility bill would not prevent me qualifying

JB300 · February 10, 2017

Do these foreign folk get shown the door with their arm hanging off....?

Come on, you know we're talking about non-emergency treatment.

In an Emergency, everybody is entitled to NHS treatment & nobody has to pay for it (save for us UK Tax payers).

chiang mai · February 10, 2017

4 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

I still believe that any ID checks are aimed at obvious 'Non-Brits'.

If I were to stroll in I (a) Doubt that I will be challenged and (b) Even not having a utility bill would not prevent me qualifying

Assuming you are not still registered with a UK doctor that still could present problems. Surely one of the first questions the hospital; would ask is, have you seen your GP and who is he?

JB300 · February 10, 2017

I still believe that any ID checks are aimed at obvious 'Non-Brits'.

If I were to stroll in I (a) Doubt that I will be challenged and ( Even not having a utility bill would not prevent me qualifying

I agree... but are you still on your GPs waiting list (I haven't been for 25 years so I doubt I am) & if not, do you think they'd want to see proof of ID/home address?

I thought it was obvious but we are talking about non-emergency treatment here (the OP is going back as he has a family history of heart problems), not somebody who's been in an accident or attacked or something.

transam · February 10, 2017

1 minute ago, JB300 said:

Come on, you know we're talking about non-emergency treatment.

In an Emergency, everybody is entitled to NHS treatment & nobody has to pay for it (save for us UK Tax payers).

If I had a problem I would go to a hospital and lay on a stretcher and let them sort it out...

It's their job, they don't give a stuff who you are, plus my NI number is tattooed on my forehead....

JB300 · February 10, 2017

If I had a problem I would go to a hospital and lay on a stretcher and let them sort it out...

It's their job, they don't give a stuff who you are, plus my NI number is tattooed on my forehead....

Now I know you're telling porkies...

The number plate of your 1st Transam is tattooed on your forehead, your NI number is tattooed on your backside.

[so tempted... but I won't make a comment about how it's easy to mix the 2 up... whoops [emoji14]]

Jip99 · February 10, 2017

1 hour ago, JB300 said:

I agree... but are you still on your GPs waiting list (I haven't been for 25 years so I doubt I am) & if not, do you think they'd want to see proof of ID/home address?

I thought it was obvious but we are talking about non-emergency treatment here (the OP is going back as he has a family history of heart problems), not somebody who's been in an accident or attacked or something.

I think previous discussions have been about immediate medical care being required - in which case, passing out at A & E will get you in every time.

I recently needed a hernia operation.

I could have used the travel insurance I have, but, they would have flown me back to UK and I would (through my GP who I remain registered with) have been placed on the NHS waiting list. I think it is an 18 week waiting period but in reality that could easily be 26 weeks or more.

I chose to pay 95,000 baht to have the operation in Thailand.

If something serious like heart surgery was required then I would certainly look at getting back to the UK as an emergency case.

For that reason (and others) I maintain a UK address, directorships, bank accounts and retain contact with my GP)

Jip99 · February 10, 2017

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Assuming you are not still registered with a UK doctor that still could present problems. Surely one of the first questions the hospital; would ask is, have you seen your GP and who is he?

Of course I am still registered with my GP.

Only a fool would give up that 'privilege' unless absolutely necessary.

I make sure I visit the surgery at lest every 2 years and I occasionally send health reports etc from Thailand.

JB300 · February 10, 2017

Of course I am still registered with my GP.

Only a fool would give up that 'privilege' unless absolutely necessary.

I make sure I visit the surgery at lest every 2 years and I occasionally send health reports etc from Thailand.

I wouldn't assume everybody has remained on their GPS register, am sure a lot of people didn't give it a 2nd thought when moving assuming they would always be "on the list".

I know I didn't but as said, I haven't seen mine for 25 years, 16 of which I was still living in the UK so why would I?

Seem to recall there was a "clean up" exercise a few years back where they removed people they hadn't seen for the 18 months (my Brother got removed from their list, but he lives a 4 hour drive away so registered with a local GP instead).

Jip99 · February 10, 2017

18 minutes ago, JB300 said:

I wouldn't assume everybody has remained on their GPS register, am sure a lot of people didn't give it a 2nd thought when moving assuming they would always be "on the list".

I know I didn't but as said, I haven't seen mine for 25 years, 16 of which I was still living in the UK so why would I?

Seem to recall there was a "clean up" exercise a few years back where they removed people they hadn't seen for the 18 months (my Brother got removed from their list, but he lives a 4 hour drive away so registered with a local GP instead).

I have seen my UK doctor more time in the 8 years that I been full time in Thailand than in the 15 years before that.

It is a problem when you are well................ you have no need to visit the quack!

chiang mai · February 10, 2017

39 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

Of course I am still registered with my GP.

Only a fool would give up that 'privilege' unless absolutely necessary.

I make sure I visit the surgery at lest every 2 years and I occasionally send health reports etc from Thailand.

I was a fool and gave up that privilege but not through choice, mine died and the practise closed.

Jip99 · February 10, 2017

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I was a fool and gave up that privilege but not through choice, mine died and the practise closed.

Then I would argue that you didn't give it up CM,...............IT gave you up.

Eff1n2ret · February 10, 2017

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Assuming you are not still registered with a UK doctor that still could present problems. Surely one of the first questions the hospital; would ask is, have you seen your GP and who is he?

That is pretty much how it works. In the summer of 2015 I fell victim to a bout of asthma while I was visiting my former home in England. I left there in 2009, and have had no contact with my GP since. The wheezing seemed to be beyond the control of my normal medication, so I went to my former surgery, but it was a Saturday and the place was closed - so I went to the local A & E. At reception I gave my name and d.o.b., the receptionist tapped them into the computer and said "Oh, that's 36 *** Road is it?" This was my former address, which I still own, but rent out, and of course I happily agreed. After a long wait I was eventually seen and treated, but the doctor said he wanted to keep me in overnight. I declined to stay, partly because I was feeling better and it would have greatly reduced the time I could spend with my grandkids, but also because I didn't want to push my luck over having to pay for in-patient treatment, although I may well have got away with it.

6 months or so ago, a neighbour who hails from the North-East of England had a problem with one of his knees and decided to go back there to seek treatment. He hobbled in to A & E and managed to get seen by a doctor. However, it was neither Accident nor Emergency, and he was told that he should make an appointment with his GP so that he could be referred to a specialist, at which point he said he no longer had a GP and why couldn't they just make an appointment for him? He returned a few weeks later untreated, although mercifully his knee problem seems to have eased a bit.

So I conclude that once you leave the UK it may be some time before you're removed from the database, but that probably varies from practice to practice, and I wouldn't assume that my details are still registered with my GP. As the Rules stand you can still receive free treatment from a GP or at A & E, but if you are admitted as an in-patient and your name doesn't show up on the database, just waving a British passport at them is unlikely to avoid being hit with a bill - unless you can show them that you are definitely resuming residence in the UK. They'll always go for easy targets, and if you are judged liable for payment under the Rules and have any assets it's much easier to go after you than some third world female who's spawned triplets.

OJAS · February 12, 2017

On 2/10/2017 at 3:04 PM, JB300 said:

Seem to recall there was a "clean up" exercise a few years back where they removed people they hadn't seen for the 18 months (my Brother got removed from their list, but he lives a 4 hour drive away so registered with a local GP instead).

Yes, I was a victim of that particular exercise, as a result of which I am no longer registered with a quack back in Blighty

theguyfromanotherforum · February 12, 2017

Don't forget this tax, and that tax, too many to mention, tv licence, I think you will soon regret moving back, Yes, Thailand has it's drawbacks, like roads, Immigration messing you around with lot more hoops to jump through than necessary, but the good far outweighs the bad here. But good luck anyway, you will need it.

But strangely enough people like you will be the first to return if they need an expensive or lifesaving treatment... Because Thai healthcare is so much better.

transam · February 12, 2017

1 minute ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

But strangely enough people like you will be the first to return if they need an expensive or lifesaving treatment... Because Thai healthcare is so much better.

We paid for that during our long life........

NoshowJones · February 12, 2017

32 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

But strangely enough people like you will be the first to return if they need an expensive or lifesaving treatment... Because Thai healthcare is so much better.

Of course I will, I have paid into the system all my adult life.

partington · February 12, 2017

44 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Of course I will, I have paid into the system all my adult life.

Access to the UK NHS is not based on contributions you have made but on RESIDENCE in the UK, so your paying in all your life is not relevant to the right you think you have.

This is clearly stated on the NHS site itself which tells you that it is NOT an insurance based system, that is it is not dependent on payments:

"The NHS in England is a residence-based system, unlike many other countries, which have insurance-based healthcare systems."

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/visiting-england/Pages/visitors-from-the-eea.aspx

and:

"The NHS operates a residence-based healthcare system and not every person is entitled to free NHS treatment in England. Provision of free NHS treatment is on the basis of being ordinarily resident and is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance (NI) contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK. Ordinarily resident means, broadly speaking, living in the UK on a lawful and properly settled basis for the time being."

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/moving-to-england/Pages/moving-to-england-from-the-eea.aspx

theoldgit · February 12, 2017

21 minutes ago, partington said:

Access to the UK NHS is not based on contributions you have made but on RESIDENCE in the UK, so your paying in all your life is not relevant to the right you think you have.

Yes, you're of course right, access to the NHS is residence based and the fact you may have paid NI and been taxed on income in years gone by counts for nothing.

Sadly even if you are current UK Taxpayer, and the NHS is funded from General Taxation, that counts for nothing either, even though you are contributing to the general pot.

SheungWan · February 12, 2017

10 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

Yes, you're of course right, access to the NHS is residence based and the fact you may have paid NI and been taxed on income in years gone by counts for nothing.

Sadly even if you are current UK Taxpayer, and the NHS is funded from General Taxation, that counts for nothing either, even though you are contributing to the general pot.

As with those on state sector defined benefit pension schemes these are all unfunded and not based on building up a personal pot. Those in work, are, in effect, working to pay the pensions of those who are retired right now and when you are retired those pensions are indirectly paid by the taxation paid by those who will at that time be currently in work. Same applies to the NHS. Your taxes paid for the NHS at that time. Retirees returning to the UK are not returning to claim on their pot of entitlement. There is no pot and never was a pot. Potless.

NoshowJones · February 12, 2017

36 minutes ago, partington said:

Access to the UK NHS is not based on contributions you have made but on RESIDENCE in the UK, so your paying in all your life is not relevant to the right you think you have.

This is clearly stated on the NHS site itself which tells you that it is NOT an insurance based system, that is it is not dependent on payments:

"The NHS in England is a residence-based system, unlike many other countries, which have insurance-based healthcare systems."

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/visiting-england/Pages/visitors-from-the-eea.aspx

and:

"The NHS operates a residence-based healthcare system and not every person is entitled to free NHS treatment in England. Provision of free NHS treatment is on the basis of being ordinarily resident and is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance (NI) contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK. Ordinarily resident means, broadly speaking, living in the UK on a lawful and properly settled basis for the time being."

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/uk-visitors/moving-to-england/Pages/moving-to-england-from-the-eea.aspx

In that case I will grow a black beard and wear a wee white hat. Problem sorted.

chiang mai · February 12, 2017

6 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

Yes, you're of course right, access to the NHS is residence based and the fact you may have paid NI and been taxed on income in years gone by counts for nothing.

Sadly even if you are current UK Taxpayer, and the NHS is funded from General Taxation, that counts for nothing either, even though you are contributing to the general pot.

As are State Pension cost of living increases (unless resident in a country etc.............).

So the bigger pictures is that taxation, benefits, medical care and pension increases are all based on residency and not current payment of taxes of NI, what jumps out at me from all of that is the Personal Allowance is not, currently.

theoldgit · February 12, 2017

7 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Same applies to the NHS. Your taxes paid for the NHS at that time. Retirees returning to the UK are not returning to claim on their pot of entitlement. There is no pot and never was a pot. Potless.

Yes, I realise that, but the point I made to the Minister was that I'm a current UK Taxpayer and a proportion of my current tax liability, albeit miniscule, goes towards current NHS funding, but I'm denied access. Whilst I wrote to Jeremey Hunt expressing my concerns, my letter never made it past his correspondence unit, they point blank refused to pass it on.
I don't know if any of you saw Ann Widdecombe on Question Time this week, she was basically saying they should remove the NHS from the political arena, tear it up and start again, it'll never happen though. I had a lot of dealing with Ann Widdicombe in a previous life, she's completely bonkers but one of the most passionate, intelligent and caring Ministers I ever had the pleasure of working with.

SheungWan · February 12, 2017

48 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

Yes, I realise that, but the point I made to the Minister was that I'm a current UK Taxpayer and a proportion of my current tax liability, albeit miniscule, goes towards current NHS funding, but I'm denied access. Whilst I wrote to Jeremey Hunt expressing my concerns, my letter never made it past his correspondence unit, they point blank refused to pass it on.
I don't know if any of you saw Ann Widdecombe on Question Time this week, she was basically saying they should remove the NHS from the political arena, tear it up and start again, it'll never happen though. I had a lot of dealing with Ann Widdicombe in a previous life, she's completely bonkers but one of the most passionate, intelligent and caring Ministers I ever had the pleasure of working with.

Fair point. Retirees are still liable for taxes. The lesson I draw from that is while the current rules are in place, it is best not to completely burn one's boats and to maintain even a token accommodation address in anticipation of later years. If boats have been burned however, then repair the situation as soon as one is able.

theguyfromanotherforum · February 12, 2017

Of course I will, I have paid into the system all my adult life.

Yet, you are complaining about taxes? How does that work again in the real world?

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