Economic/class Differences

[girlx]

just wondering, if you hook up with someone of lower economic status/class than you does the imbalance always prevent a real relationship from developing? ie. will that difference in experience/opportunities always be an issue between the opposite sides? or will relationships like that always fall into a prostitute/patron thing... this is an honest question. of course most people would see it from the outside as being the latter, but are there really successful love relationships between people who have nothing (like a lot of thailand) and people who have plenty, where the one with plenty doesn't resent the one without and vice versa?

[Rinrada]

and how would it work in reverse? ........

Just suppose your average happy go lucky fat,fifty,balding not a care in the world sex tourist on his annual jolli to Patti from his job as a local council road sweeper (£5-50p /hour) for some reason or other manages to make the aquaintance of say a local Thai MPs highly educated desirable and sought after daughter...wot then.....

No social Problems Yeah....

[tutsiwarrior]

just wondering, if you hook up with someone of lower economic status/class than you does the imbalance always prevent a real relationship from developing? ie. will that difference in experience/opportunities always be an issue between the opposite sides? or will relationships like that always fall into a prostitute/patron thing... this is an honest question. of course most people would see it from the outside as being the latter, but are there really successful love relationships between people who have nothing (like a lot of thailand) and people who have plenty, where the one with plenty doesn't resent the one without and vice versa?

calm down girlx...think about the premise when you got involved...was it love?...business?...money? In my case it was a business arrangement...you look after my needs and I'll look after yours and your familiy's...has worked out pretty well so far...my wife is not in love with me in the romantic sense but I've held up my part of the agreement pretty well for which I can tell she is grateful.

I was not in love in the romantic sense with my wife when we entered into our agreement...she just seemed to be an honest and hardworking girl (sexy and all that) that would honor her commitments/obligations. We sleep together now after 7 years as a comfortable old couple and what we presently have is not unlike what a lot of old couples have, whatever the initial premise was...

socio/economic status don't mean much when you're talking about a falang/asian relationship in a SE asian milieu...you need to have the perception to see if your needs are being met...which becomes apparent pretty quickly...

good luck and happy Christmas...

[GracelessFawn]

just wondering, if you hook up with someone of lower economic status/class than you does the imbalance always prevent a real relationship from developing? ie. will that difference in experience/opportunities always be an issue between the opposite sides? or will relationships like that always fall into a prostitute/patron thing... this is an honest question. of course most people would see it from the outside as being the latter, but are there really successful love relationships between people who have nothing (like a lot of thailand) and people who have plenty, where the one with plenty doesn't resent the one without and vice versa?

If you hook-up with someone because of love, then I think that the difference in economic status will no longer be a problem.

Maybe, I'm just a romantic....... still dreaming.......... but in a perfect world, love should be enough!

[Boo]

I think that the individual has to decide what is important to them in a partner. If economic stability/status/earning ability (what ever you want to call it) is an important thing to you then you have to actively avoid the type of people who do not fit the profile & "seek" out the type of mate who does.

Many men have married ex bar girls & to them the social/economic status of their partner is unimportant so isn't a factor to consider, other men would never consider marrying a girl from that profession & look for a girl from a certain background/profession that suits their ideal.

I don't think there are any hard & fast rules & when you meet someone who doesn't meet your criteria but who you have a conenction with, then most of the time, the rules go out of the window

Edited December 11, 2006 by Boo

[GuestHouse]

It all depends on the currency you are measuring.. cash being only one of them.

I take the view that the closer each of the currencies are the more balanced the relationship, so:

So I'd look for balance on all fronts, financial, emotional, education, outlook, expectation (add facet of your life YOU feel is important).

But I'd add a caution. If you are still young and haven't yet established life savings and investments that are going to keep you in your old age, then don't put that issue asside as unimportant (something to worry about later).

Today on ThaiVisa we've had a woman writing of a case where a woman who seems to be in her middle age faced with the prospect of being dumped by a husband and left with nothing.

Attachment to anyone should never be allowed to put you in that position.

Of course, I'm answering this on the basis that 'balance' is desirable, for some it is not, holding an imbalace of the power in a relationship is for some most desirable.

It takes all sorts.

[rikpa]

If you hook-up with someone because of love, then I think that the difference in economic status will no longer be a problem.

Maybe, I'm just a romantic....... still dreaming.......... but in a perfect world, love should be enough!

Hi GF,

What you say makes sense in a perfect world. But I don't think it really works that way in the real world. Or if it does, only rarely. There are alway problems when there is a huge class divide. Note I say class divide and don't base this on income.

Class is an attitude (and largely a function of how a person speaks and comports themself), and if the attitudes match between partners, then economics are usually not at issue.

I speak as someone who married across a class and culture chasm, and paid the price for it. There are just different expectations and ways of relating to life that can be difficult, if not impossible, to bridge.

The biggest thing I noticed was the differences in the way we treated work and money. For my ex (not a BG but traditional Khmer country-girl), the way of relating to life was not at all compatible with what most Farangs are used to.

I mean things like "planning" and "goals" and all of that. For folks who grow up in a world where there is no concept of future, or of goals (like Isaan or rural Cambodia), it can be very difficult for that person to embrace a mindset where things like getting an education and self-improvement are valuable and important.

Many of the poor folks from upcountry have a totally different way of relating to money & work, and that mindset is almost impossible to change. This makes them bad canditates for relationships with folks who have that mindset, and makes them poor canditates for transplanting to cultures where goals and the concept of a "future" holds sway.

It is like giving a poor person a $100MM lottery payout. They often end up killing themselves with excess, or end up in crazy debt even with their windfall, because they have no concept of how to apply this in relation to life goals or the future.

Just my thoughts.

[Colonel_Mustard]

It all depends on the currency you are measuring.. cash being only one of them.

I take the view that the closer each of the currencies are the more balanced the relationship, so:

So I'd look for balance on all fronts, financial, emotional, education, outlook, expectation (add facet of your life YOU feel is important).

But I'd add a caution. If you are still young and haven't yet established life savings and investments that are going to keep you in your old age, then don't put that issue asside as unimportant (something to worry about later).

Today on ThaiVisa we've had a woman writing of a case where a woman who seems to be in her middle age faced with the prospect of being dumped by a husband and left with nothing.

Attachment to anyone should never be allowed to put you in that position.

Of course, I'm answering this on the basis that 'balance' is desirable, for some it is not, holding an imbalace of the power in a relationship is for some most desirable.

It takes all sorts.

I'd agree with that but I think another important factor for balance is age, as that usually has a bearing on all the other facets you mention.

[girlx]

thanks- good answers... i am not really involved with anyone right now but was just thinking about the people around me and wondering if it could even work out here!

[Fun2Fun]

Class and economics diffrences between a thai girl and a western male might not be as clear cut as they first appear.

In many situations the problem seems a bit reversed, since the thai girl going off with her new "fairytale" husband to live in a new country, basically ends up living in a far less desirable economic situation than expected and/or she has grown used to.

In many cases actually having to make do without many of the small luxuaries she has gotten accustomed to in Thailand.

So it will seem to her that she is the one who have had to adjust down/sacrifice to make the relationship work. (In many cases a disaster waiting to happen)

Edited December 12, 2006 by Fun2Fun

[Heng]

Just speaking about the economic difference, it is one less thing to worry about if a relationship is balanced in that respect. Relationships can have hundreds of different kinds of problems, people can argue and disagree about anything.... but judging from relationships I see all around me and certainly the ones you read about on TV in terms of "what people fight about," those of us who are able to take economic issues out of the equation can count themselves fortunate.

Those who aren't already knee and/or neck deep in relationships might want to consider that before starting a relationship here. For those who don't have a problem with economic differences, more power to you.

[Casanundra]

Hmmm this is a tricky one and I cannot help but think that the old notion of 'leading a horse to water but not making it drink' applies.

A friend of mine significantly married down because he loved the girl and his wife of some 20 years now actually turned out to be the biggest snob of them all as she raised to the social expectations that were required of her. Basically a girl who was the salt of the earth stacking shelves at Tesco became the snob of the earth and as a consequence no one from the family goes and visits anymore as it really is intolerable.

Moving the argument closer to home, especially here in Thailand, the issue of class and status are always going to be an issue from the Thai side of things who like to (have to?) pigeon hole everyone and everything into a place on their social / hierarchical / status ladder and they then treat you accordingly. In all reality no matter who you marry, be it up or down from your own perceived social position (and let's be clear here, social positioning is for snobs and wannabe no-bodies) then you are always going to have a problem 'really' fitting, especially so here.

But what is it with this issue of class and status in Thailand anyway? I mean when you ask what it is that constitutes class and status and indeed what is it exactly that makes a person classy well you will find a whole sting of answers.

This issue of class and status is huge in Thailand and let’s make no bones about it; it is one of those fundamental building blocks of how Thailand works. Many here in Thailand would probably say that the cornerstone of status and class in Thai society is based on how much money you have, breeding (predominantly Thai Chinese / Luk Kreung for the superstars), coupled with the kind of education you have (the more western the education, the better it is) but for me, I have trouble with these three categories mainly because for me the corner stones of what constitutes class and a person of stature involves such things as honesty, integrity, and nobility, all of which are unfortunately lacking in huge quantities in the average Thai fabric of society.

So let me ask first then, does having an education give you class or status? Heck no! is the answer but what it does do is help you become more balanced and open minded and it does open doors that where previously closed, although I have to say there are still many alleged educated idiots out there who are not only arrogant but arrogant fools too and who have not learned anything. When you speak to a Thai about what their education means to them, they will more often than not say high GPA scores and making my family happy to have achieved a high GPA. There is rarely any thinking about actually learning anything along the way, as long as their GPA score is high.

So perhaps it’s the money that is important. But does having money really denote class in a person. I think ‘no’ again is the answer and although it all helps give the impression of being hi-so, I know many a rich idiot out there too and one only has to see how some of the lottery winners back home suddenly behave now that they are millionaires to see that money and class are two very distinct things. If you look at how many grade 6 educated bar girls are currently sitting on farang fed gold mines or inherited life insurance payouts after hubby farang popped his clogs well I wouldn’t want to put any of them in the bracket of having any class, would you?

OK then, it must be the breeding and title that you have. But what did breeding do for Little Lord Fontleroy back home who had to endure a life of cold showers, being buggered by the prefects in the boarding school as he grew up and who now sits in his inherited mansion in his Wellington boots, tweed trousers and jacket whilst fondling his shotgun and eating runner beans from the little vegetable patch he has at the back of the apple tree orchid wondering how on earth he can continue with the council tax payments and electricity bills. He is of course thankful that he still holds an honouree title in the House of Lords that he also inherited from good old pa but so much for breeding back home then because it all reality he doesn’t have anything either. When you look at breeding in Thailand, well it all comes from the money orientated Chinese (who along with their Japanese brothers) believe that all other civilisations, especially us white foreign devils are uncivilised and shouldn’t really be here anyway and that their tradition and how much money they can make in under the table business deals puts them higher than everyone else on the food chain. But does this really constitute good breeding? One has to wonder about such things.

Perhaps it’s just being classy that does it. I have heard this term used about cars, but does having a beautiful paint job, curvy lines and a figure hugging slim lined body really denote someone or something as being classy? Many people would like to think so, but me, I say there is no whore better than a high class one and hollywood and the music industry is full of them.

So what about the average Thai or Farang? Do we have class or status here? Well of course the answer is ‘yes’ we do but it’s one that the Thais make up and put you into. Personally, I have to probably say that the real answer to this question is that ‘no’ many of the Thais despite what they think about themselves are no better than some hillbilly hick tribe not long out of the caves and some of the foreigners who come here are no more advanced than that either, despite what they think about themselves, and that the class system here was introduced simply to make people feel better about themselves.

At the end of the day, this thing about marrying up or down is a confidence and self perception issue. If you feel comfortable in your own skin and are happy then why give a flying cahoonas about what other people think. It's how you make it work that matters and as long as you are happy and fit into the general fabric of society without being too extreme then who cares.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Casanundra

[Fun2Fun]

In addition to earlier mentioned balancing points, looks are also an important factor when there is large gap in social/economic situation.

As long as there are emotional and intellectual compatibility, similar expectations/future plans, balance of the parties interst, age and looks, then the class/economical difference should not mather all that much.

If there are major differences in the balance, then the class/economical gap might be be to large to bridge.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Fun2Fun

[Little Black Duck]

Girl X ..In my humble opinion and I've been around quite a while..

The most important things in a Relationship are Trust and Respect..

That Magic as people choose to call it, ie..Physical attraction..

You know when you meet someone if you like them or not..

That is relevent but If you have Trust and Respect you can generally work all the rest out..

I know that sounds very simple but amazingly most people tend to complicate things and muddy the water..

Take your time, get to know the person see if they respect you..Then see where it goes..

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

I would say marry who you can relate too and who can relate to you. That is if your looking for meaningful mentally stimulating companionship. Note however that is a big "IF" I have seen a ton of marriages between worn out bar girls from Issan and loosers from farangland that are more along the lines of contracts or marriages of convenience if you will. Security and escape from poverty and prostitution for the girl and feminine companionship of a quality that would not be accessible to him back home for the man. And that works too, for what it was intended. Problems arise when when folks attempt to kid themselves into believing their relationship is something thats it's not.

But really and truly, your best bet is to know yourself and go after someone on or slightly above your caliber.

Keep age and relative financial backgrounds within due bounds. Educational backgrounds should be similar too. Ask what her dreams are, tell her yours, pay attention to what she doesn't say as much as what she dose when you explain them to her. Dose she understand you? Dose she agree and appreciate them? If so your on the right track, if not keep it rollin.

Yes easier said then done, but she should be your life mate so, why not take some time and put some effort into it?

[bina]

cass and others have said it fairly well;

its really rather funny because my first husband , a kibbutznik, thought of himself, as they all did back then, as the elite of the elite, the creme de la creme,looking down on city and moshavnik people.. even though none of them got more than a high school education as they were the bread of the land farmers. i, on the other hand, came from a middle upper class jewish american background w/a college degree (and an unusual liberal and eccentric family background) married him, each family thought the other as 'not in the same class'... my in laws thougth i was a spoiled rich kid (NOT, as i have worked since 13 yrs of age at every kind of job available, put self thru college etc), my aunts etc thought marrying a 'farmer' was a waste of my education and a reduction in status.

we separated based on incompatiblity in personality traits, not social desires/norms whatever.

he learned to eat with chopsticks and wear a suit/tie when appropriate, i learned to hoe weeds and make do with what there is around me... however we argued about every thing possible for years so divorced in the end.

now i have married an issaan non educated thai man, and i think he has more innate class than most men i've met. he has grace, charm, learned the ins/outs of our super snob society here and yet has remained down to earth true to himself in every way, which is what i love about him...

he is not materialistic and neither is the majority of his family; neither am i. we are ten years age difference. i do not want to 'remake' him; he does not want to educate me. each of us is very certain in our roles we have in house/decision making etc.

economic social differences are only important if u need/want them to be... if they are important to you. if they are important to you, they will matter in a relationship too. you must be honest with yourself if it does matter. my best friend (from american hi/so family) weeded out those men that didnt fit in with her own social/economic needs and found someone she loves; she does not however judge her friends by the same values and shows real class by accepting and loving those of us not from her 'social status'.

i also think that as u get older these things become less important;after all,u cant take status or money with u when u die, we all become jsut decayed flesh and bones...

bina

israel

[Don Quixote]

I would say marry who you can relate too and who can relate to you. That is if your looking for meaningful mentally stimulating companionship. Note however that is a big "IF" I have seen a ton of marriages between worn out bar girls from Issan and loosers from farangland that are more along the lines of contracts or marriages of convenience if you will. Security and escape from poverty and prostitution for the girl and feminine companionship of a quality that would not be accessible to him back home for the man. And that works too, for what it was intended. Problems arise when when folks attempt to kid themselves into believing their relationship is something thats it's not.

But really and truly, your best bet is to know yourself and go after someone on or slightly above your caliber.

Keep age and relative financial backgrounds within due bounds. Educational backgrounds should be similar too. Ask what her dreams are, tell her yours, pay attention to what she doesn't say as much as what she dose when you explain them to her. Dose she understand you? Dose she agree and appreciate them? If so your on the right track, if not keep it rollin.

Yes easier said then done, but she should be your life mate so, why not take some time and put some effort into it?

Right on the money, Cptn

[jamman]

A friend of mine significantly married down because he loved the girl and his wife of some 20 years now actually turned out to be the biggest snob of them all as she raised to the social expectations that were required of her. Basically a girl who was the salt of the earth stacking shelves at Tesco became the snob of the earth and as a consequence no one from the family goes and visits anymore as it really is intolerable.

Snobbism is painfully funny.

I'm reminded of another thread on this forum, and I see parallels. There was an ultra snobby racist evil bitch, who enslaved and abused a minor of an "inferior" ethnicity. The OP questioned if he should exclude her from the wedding, thus raising a small stink and possibly causing the wife's family to choose sides. Stand up for what he thought was right.

And you are talking about some woman who buries her own shadow, and pisses on it. She was once inferior and low class, but is no longer, because now she is stepping on other people.

It is all so very thirteen. Thirteen year old girls play that game.

For adults playing it, give them a good hard slap, and if others around are all shocked, F them. For all the posters on that thread who said the OP should be sensitive to family dynamics and not make waves, get over yourselves with all this cultural sensitivity towards face and snobbery and class. We can rise above it, and adults should. It's all way too high school, and F them if they can't see that. Who cares what Thais, or anybody, thinks of you? Why do you want to fit in?

We are adults now. We can't go back to grade six and try to be cool. Who would want to? Social rank is for children. Adults become something they admire, not something others admire. Adults do the right thing, despite what others think. Not so that others will think well of them.

As for what class is, I agree with you that neither money nor education is the mark of it. One can't have class without both empathy and curiosity, and if one has those one can become classy.

At the end of the day, this thing about marrying up or down is a confidence and self perception issue. If you feel comfortable in your own skin and are happy then why give a flying cahoonas about what other people think. It's how you make it work that matters and as long as you are happy and fit into the general fabric of society without being too extreme then who cares.

My GF is way below me in class, and that means that there will be a lot of ways that we can't communicate. Different music, different sense of humor, different education, different thinking skills. But she is a stunner, attentive, and loves me with a wild consuming passion. She is fun, volcanically sexy, and nourishing. I recently read that less than 15% of women are multi orgasmic. She is in a class all her own, sexually. So, she isn't the whole parcel - in her way she is still miles above the crowd. Low class savant.

And as for "fitting into the general fabric of society without being too extreme", that's why I love living in a populous world. No matter what your extreme kink, there is a subculture out there to fit into.

Edited December 12, 2006 by jamman

[sbk]

Interesting topic, girlx, but I suspect most of the couples you are looking at are not what most of the posters are discussing; ie you see Thai men with Farang women and they are discussing, mainly, Thai women with Farang men.

I think the dynamic changes completely when it is the man who comes from a socially or economically disadvantaged position. Not because of societies perceptions but because many men have difficulty in accepting a woman who either makes more money than he does or has more education (can be both, can be either). I don't care what country or culture they come from, even age group, really. I think most men prefer to be on an equal level with their partner, not a disadvantaged level. I believe it takes a strong man confident in himself to not have problems in such situations.

In all the years I have lived here only a few long-term relationships between Thai men and Farang women that I know have worked out. Nearly all of the ones I know that have made it past the 10 year mark are in a relationship with a man who either has his own money (or business) or has an education. Not all, of course, but most.

[Donz]

Well im marrying up. (thats right boys)

It definately doesnt make any difference, its just if you can click together and trust each other then that should out weight everything.

[Boo]

Well im marrying up. (thats right boys)

was there any other way to go? only joshing with you donz, your ok for a wally

[Donz]

Well im marrying up. (thats right boys)

was there any other way to go? only joshing with you donz, your ok for a wally

With my looks all the rich ladies wanted a peice (I hope this isnt holiday material)

[Boo]

I hope this isnt holiday material

Nothing in the rules about being a braggart & delusional (yet) otherwise half the populace would have been banned already

[bkkmadness]

Well im marrying up. (thats right boys)

was there any other way to go?

Beat me to it!

I'm not sure any of us will be moving in the same circles as Donz though with his marraige into one of the elite Hi So families of Thailand. I expect we'll only see him on the real TV soon.

[Donz]

I will be a star soon.

Soon you guys will be begging me for an autograph.

Boo im irresistable (spelling)

[Rinrada]

I tried to marry down ...but couldnt find anyone lower...

O well....never mind

[girlx]

hm it's true i don't think i could marry down, but then my family was down once and they (some of them at least, like me) pulled themselves up. i believe that given the opportunity, anyone can do that. i suppose i just couldn't be with someone who wouldn't.

[Fun2Fun]

Interesting topic, girlx, but I suspect most of the couples you are looking at are not what most of the posters are discussing; ie you see Thai men with Farang women and they are discussing, mainly, Thai women with Farang men.

Well it does have some merrit since there is a sub-culture of Asian and Caribian men who has made it their "profession" to entertain the romantic fantasies and dreams of women too. Both as a fling and as a bf/husband.

The relationship between a women of higher class/economic background (usually higher age too) can in such a way mirror the differences and difficulties inherent in simularely balanced relationship between a western male and asian girl.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Fun2Fun

[backflip]

"this is an honest question"

No, it is not. However, you trollish post reminds me of a Q+A in a newspaper's doctor's column:

Q: If a genius marries a moron, what are the odds that the child will be a moron?

A: Better than 50/50 because anyone who marries a moron can't be too smart.

[sbk]

I disagree fun2fun, men and women react in different ways to different situations and a woman in a lower socio-economic status to her male partner is in a far different situation than a man in such a situation. As I said before, most men have difficulty with being "lower" than the woman and it would take a strong man to not have issues with it.

Besides, my feeling from girlx's original post is that she is discussing legitimate relationships rather than short-term "fun" vacation type relationships based solely on the exchange of goods and services