Court case on whether Brexit can be reversed to be filed Friday

[melvinmelvin]

54 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I agree with your prognosis, but this is politics and there's always some unexpected turns.  The basic problem that I see about the status of Art50, once invoked, is that if it is irrevocable, the EU can twiddle it's thumbs for 2 years and then present UK with a deal that is only marginally better than the "no deal" option, and UK will have a bit of a Hobson's Choice situation.   If - however - the ECJ says that Art50 *is* reversible, then the UK can not be boxed in in that way. 

 

If the UK government goes into these negos after A50 is triggered determined to leave the EU I don't really see that

it matters at all if the A50/leave triggering can be reversed or not.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

So you wont answer, then. Since the adoption of the metric system was first recommended by the British Parliament in 1895, and it's use has gradually crept into British weights and measures ever since; it's full, official adoption was inevitable.

 

If in doubt; blame the French!

 

It's important to everyone, well nearly every one. Only three countries have not officially adopted it; Liberia, Myanmar and the USA. But even they have to use it in international trade; because everyone else does.

 

Different numerical systems can be confusing; we need a SI for that too. Dates as well; to me today is 29/1/17, to an American it's 1/29/17.

In what way? As with any system, one simply has to learn the names, e.g. millimetres, centimetres, metres etc., a task any Thai schoolchild has mastered.

 

How are these names and their relationship to each unit more confusing than drachm, scruple, minim, chaldron, quarter, rod, pole, perch etc.?

 

How old is your grandson? Where does he go to school?

 

Schools in the UK switched to SI units in maths and science back in the late 1960's, when I was at school. I must say that I found multiplying 3.5 metres by 4.5 metres much easier than multiplying 11 feet 5 and 3/4 inches by 14 feet 9 inches!  

 

 

The SI/metric system is not suitable for handling time related dimensions, and not suitable for degrees/hours/minutes/seconds (navigation) related dimensions.

 

Although most countries are so called metric, inches and fractions of inches and foot is WIDELY used in many applications, so are yards.

 

propellers; diameter, pitch etc -- inches (all over the world)

tailors; mostly yards and inches

my Thai boat builder is completely inch oriented, except for a few measures

my Thai craftsman making canvas/PVC covers understands NOTHING if I ask for something 7 inch by 11 inch,

                                    he must find a stick with inches and centimeters and see what 7 inches is in centimeters

 

screws/nuts/bolts inches are still living very well

 

horsepowers are still widely in use

 

the most difficult area I find is pipes/tubes and threads, inches and fraction of inches are used in many many countries

and to make the mess complete the pipe/tube/thread system (in inches) differs between UK and US,

US use NPT, UK use BSP - almost, but not fully compatible

 

many people live with the idea that car engines, even from the US, are fully metric,

they are not,

when you come to things like temperature sensors for gear oil, engine oil, radiator water,

pressure sensors for oil, you are mostly into the US NPT system for the threads of these sensors

 

funny thing about pipes,

for most ordinary steel pipes a 3/4" pipe is larger than a 1" pipe

3/4" pipe is a world wide recognised trade name for a pipe with diameter of about 27 millimeters

1" pipe is not a world wide recognised trade name for pipes, so it loses out with its mere 25.4 millimeter diameter

 

not even the EC with all its banana and cucumber directives has managed to straighten this out

 

sorry,

this has fine little to do with Brexit, but since inch/metric was mentioned above I felt like getting this off my chest,

am living with and struggling with this crap on a daily basis

 

 

 

[RealisticRon]

 

[JAG]

34 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

If the UK government goes into these negos after A50 is triggered determined to leave the EU I don't really see that

it matters at all if the A50/leave triggering can be reversed or not.

 

 

Ah, but when the Liberal Democrats win the next election they can turn everything round....

[Alan Deer]

23 hours ago, Alan Deer said:

I love the way Brexiteers always assume the British are subservient to Germany

The Brexit solution to this paranoia seems to be to change Germany from being an ally into an adversary.

They probably didn't know that before Brexit the British economy was actually on course to becoming larger than that of Germany 

But then when did logic ever factor in Brexiteers' thinking?

[jpinx]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

So you wont answer, then. Since the adoption of the metric system was first recommended by the British Parliament in 1895, and it's use has gradually crept into British weights and measures ever since; it's full, official adoption was inevitable.

 

If in doubt; blame the French!

 

It's important to everyone, well nearly every one. Only three countries have not officially adopted it; Liberia, Myanmar and the USA. But even they have to use it in international trade; because everyone else does.

 

Different numerical systems can be confusing; we need a SI for that too. Dates as well; to me today is 29/1/17, to an American it's 1/29/17.

In what way? As with any system, one simply has to learn the names, e.g. millimetres, centimetres, metres etc., a task any Thai schoolchild has mastered.

 

How are these names and their relationship to each unit more confusing than drachm, scruple, minim, chaldron, quarter, rod, pole, perch etc.?

 

How old is your grandson? Where does he go to school?

 

Schools in the UK switched to SI units in maths and science back in the late 1960's, when I was at school. I must say that I found multiplying 3.5 metres by 4.5 metres much easier than multiplying 11 feet 5 and 3/4 inches by 14 feet 9 inches!  

I take it you read the response here?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/965911-court-case-on-whether-brexit-can-be-reversed-to-be-filed-friday/?page=5#comment-11571385

I am too lazy to explain things to people who don't want to know

 

 

[jpinx]

2 hours ago, Alan Deer said:

The Brexit solution to this paranoia seems to be to change Germany from being an ally into an adversary.

They probably didn't know that before Brexit the British economy was actually on course to becoming larger than that of Germany 

But then when did logic ever factor in Brexiteers' thinking?

People who deliberately mis-represent the reality of the majority of opinion are nothing short of trouble-makers.  If you can't offer some commentary which deals with the situation existing today, then you are part of the problem.

Germany and the rest of the EU needs to survive and thrive - UK needs good neighbours and good trading partners.  To suggest otherwise is facile and demonstrates a serious lack of understand of the situation.  The paranoia is yours - -please keep it.

[SaintLouisBlues]

3 minutes ago, jpinx said:

People who deliberately mis-represent the reality of the majority of opinion are nothing short of trouble-makers.  If you can't offer some commentary which deals with the situation existing today, then you are part of the problem.

 

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, jpinx said:

Diverting  and deflecting does not answer the question.  Did you read the link I posted or not?  It is highly relevant to what you are attempting to claim are the benefits of being in the EU, when in fact the opposite has more generally been the case. 

It's a shame the exchange has become less than friendly -- you used to be an interesting interlocutor.

I did read it but fail to see how metrification relates to the benefits of consumer protection legislation, maybe you should explain.

As I said before, do not use my posts to bring in your own agenda.

[jpinx]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I did read it but fail to see how metrification relates to the benefits of consumer protection legislation, maybe you should explain.

As I said before, do not use my posts to bring in your own agenda.

Since you narrow the topic down to only consumer protection legislation, it becomes obvious that this is the only supposed benefit that you see in the EU.  That is not enough and Brexit is indeed the best option.  Consumer protection, even in the EU, does not over-ride the principle of "Buyer Beware". 

[jpinx]

22 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

 

What's that got to do with anything - is it your brother or something?

[SaintLouisBlues]

29 minutes ago, jpinx said:

What's that got to do with anything - is it your brother or something?

It's you stamping your little foot

[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

It's you stamping your little foot

Doesn't look anything like me   Besides  - stamping is for losers and little girls -- this forum is for "real men" 

[Alan Deer]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

People who deliberately mis-represent the reality of the majority of opinion are nothing short of trouble-makers.  If you can't offer some commentary which deals with the situation existing today, then you are part of the problem.

Germany and the rest of the EU needs to survive and thrive - UK needs good neighbours and good trading partners.  To suggest otherwise is facile and demonstrates a serious lack of understand of the situation.  The paranoia is yours - -please keep it.

not that it has anything to do with my first post, I'll reply to yours..... EU may have had a fatal or near fatal blow if Uk leaves - but you can be sure in subsequent negotiations they have a self-preservation interest in making sure that other countries do not see this this as a "good move" they will make sure the UK pays for leaving.

[jpinx]

20 minutes ago, Alan Deer said:

not that it has anything to do with my first post, I'll reply to yours..... EU may have had a fatal or near fatal blow if Uk leaves - but you can be sure in subsequent negotiations they have a self-preservation interest in making sure that other countries do not see this this as a "good move" they will make sure the UK pays for leaving.

Junkers, Schultz, Tusk and other leaders within the EU strongly said this when the referendum result was first declared, but there is a gradual toning-down of such ridiculous rhetoric as they start to realise that they actually need UK to do well and continue buying EU goods.  Nervousness about EU trade was highlighted when Merkel trotted off to China recently. 

 

Of course EU wants a "good deal" but they can't afford to strangle the UK's uptake of EU produce.  Similarly - the UK needs a good deal.  It is actually a very easy negotiation when the political vitriol is removed and level heads get down to bargaining.  It is interesting to watch the posturing subsiding and the brokering getting on with the job.

 

The point about making UK pay so that others don't follow is vacuous.  There is no other country similar to the  UK  within Europe, considering trade, financial centres, defense, etc.  The EU departure deal with any other country would be very different indeed.

[sandyf]

As well as the case in the OP, there are another 2 legal challenges in the pipeline. Article 127 will be the next hot topic.

 

https://www.monckton.com/single-market-challenge-adrian-yelland-and-peter-wilding-v-sseu-article-127-eea/

 

[jpinx]

27 minutes ago, sandyf said:

As well as the case in the OP, there are another 2 legal challenges in the pipeline. Article 127 will be the next hot topic.

 

https://www.monckton.com/single-market-challenge-adrian-yelland-and-peter-wilding-v-sseu-article-127-eea/

 

Nothing new there -- TM has already promised a full debate in both houses and a vote on the actual terms negotiated.  Art 127 has not been talked about much since it's requirements are already covered by the actions UK is embarking on.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

50 minutes ago, sandyf said:

As well as the case in the OP, there are another 2 legal challenges in the pipeline. Article 127 will be the next hot topic.

 

https://www.monckton.com/single-market-challenge-adrian-yelland-and-peter-wilding-v-sseu-article-127-eea/

 

Which is why some of us have largely 'switched off'.

 

When it comes down to every 'point' being argued by the legal profession, the discussion moves into an entirely different sphere.

 

Once the lawyers have finished 'arguing their point'/we know the resultant court decisions - it may then become more interesting as we read about what is actually happening.

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, jpinx said:

Junkers, Schultz, Tusk and other leaders within the EU strongly said this when the referendum result was first declared, but there is a gradual toning-down of such ridiculous rhetoric as they start to realise that they actually need UK to do well and continue buying EU goods.  Nervousness about EU trade was highlighted when Merkel trotted off to China recently. 

 

Of course EU wants a "good deal" but they can't afford to strangle the UK's uptake of EU produce.  Similarly - the UK needs a good deal.  It is actually a very easy negotiation when the political vitriol is removed and level heads get down to bargaining.  It is interesting to watch the posturing subsiding and the brokering getting on with the job.

 

The point about making UK pay so that others don't follow is vacuous.  There is no other country similar to the  UK  within Europe, considering trade, financial centres, defense, etc.  The EU departure deal with any other country would be very different indeed.

"The point about making UK pay so that others don't follow is vacuous."

 

Much as I largely agree with the reasons given to support this POV, I'm not entirely convinced as the EU has already been happy to encompass countries that are net 'takers' rather than 'givers' financially.

 

Which is one of the reasons why I'm sure they're very worried indeed about any other countries also voting to leave the EU.  The 'domino effect' could likely result in another of the big 'paying' countries leaving, bearing in mind the populace of those countries are already making it clear that they are not entirely happy.  And even some of the politicians are admitting they've 'made mistakes'.

[The Dark Lord]

19 hours ago, RealisticRon said:

 

Ron, where can Anyone find a better summation of the crass nonsense that we see and hear every day from the "tolerant, progressive"classes

 

i nearly wet my pants over this and will save it to play every time I get agitated by the crap I read about the brilliant Brexit vote.

 

[jpinx]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The point about making UK pay so that others don't follow is vacuous."

 

Much as I largely agree with the reasons given to support this POV, I'm not entirely convinced as the EU has already been happy to encompass countries that are net 'takers' rather than 'givers' financially.

 

Which is one of the reasons why I'm sure they're very worried indeed about any other countries also voting to leave the EU.  The 'domino effect' could likely result in another of the big 'paying' countries leaving, bearing in mind the populace of those countries are already making it clear that they are not entirely happy.  And even some of the politicians are admitting they've 'made mistakes'.

An Empire of  "Taker-States"  is going to be difficult to sustain, so pragmatism will step forward and allow any such minnows to leave, but you have to ask -- why would a minnow-state want to leave it's feeder?   Germany alone - Europe's largest economy - paid more than the 19 lowest-paying member states combined - so they aren't going anywhere. The other contributing states - see this chart...

 

taken from here...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-eu-members-net-contributions-and-net-funding-2016-12

...are more likely to stick together and form the Federation that the EU-ites want so badly.  That would be good for UK - a strong buyer of UK exports on the doorstep. 

 

 

.

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, The Dark Lord said:

Ron, where can Anyone find a better summation of the crass nonsense that we see and hear every day from the "tolerant, progressive"classes

 

i nearly wet my pants over this and will save it to play every time I get agitated by the crap I read about the brilliant Brexit vote.

 

Nothing wrong with "tolerant, progressive" people.

 

It only goes wrong when people/voters on both sides of the debate are unable to see beyond their own prejudices/walls etc. -encouraged of course, by politicians who are determined that facts are unacceptable - sound bites and lies better suit their own financial interests.

 

And too many believe these sound bites and lies as they prefer to believe anything that suits their own prejudices - and also (wrongly believe) suits their own financial interest.

 

This applies to General Elections far more than the referendum, when for the first time that I can recall, the populace largely ignored the politicians and 'experts' - and voted instead on what they could see happening around them.

 

It came as a nasty shock to the politicians/wealthy and those that believed their propaganda.

 

Whether leaving the EU results in a nasty shock to the average/poor Brit. remains to be seen - and its quite likely as the EU came out with many laws increasing employee rights, that are unlikely to be respected for long once the UK leaves the EU.

[dick dasterdly]

51 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The point about making UK pay so that others don't follow is vacuous."

 

Much as I largely agree with the reasons given to support this POV, I'm not entirely convinced as the EU has already been happy to encompass countries that are net 'takers' rather than 'givers' financially.

 

Which is one of the reasons why I'm sure they're very worried indeed about any other countries also voting to leave the EU.  The 'domino effect' could likely result in another of the big 'paying' countries leaving, bearing in mind the populace of those countries are already making it clear that they are not entirely happy.  And even some of the politicians are admitting they've 'made mistakes'.

 

18 minutes ago, jpinx said:

An Empire of  "Taker-States"  is going to be difficult to sustain, so pragmatism will step forward and allow any such minnows to leave, but you have to ask -- why would a minnow-state want to leave it's feeder?   Germany alone - Europe's largest economy - paid more than the 19 lowest-paying member states combined - so they aren't going anywhere. The other contributing states - see this chart...

 

taken from here...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-eu-members-net-contributions-and-net-funding-2016-12

...are more likely to stick together and form the Federation that the EU-ites want so badly.  That would be good for UK - a strong buyer of UK exports on the doorstep. 

 

 

.

I agree entirely that the financial 'takers' rather than 'givers' are unlikely to vote leave - unless some policies are causing them serious problems.

 

The more important problem for the EU is that the population of another paying country may result in them also voting to leave - and losing one of the few paying members (UK) is bad enough, but losing another?

 

 

[jpinx]

33 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I agree entirely that the financial 'takers' rather than 'givers' are unlikely to vote leave - unless some policies are causing them serious problems.

 

The more important problem for the EU is that the population of another paying country may result in them also voting to leave - and losing one of the few paying members (UK) is bad enough, but losing another?

 

 

Indeed -- Both France and Holland have some issues, so there will have to be some negotiating.  Brexit might actually make the EU a stronger federation, bound by a need for mutual support of the net-taker-members.  It's not hard to see UK going alone  --  it's been an unhappy marriage from the beginning, but France was an original member along with Germany, and benefitted enormously from the CAP, so it's hard to see them leaving, though some adjustments might be needed.  Those same adjustments would possibly suit the Netherlands too. 

 

It's fascinating to watch the morphing process as it goes from warring nations in 1945 through a common market and heading into a federation. 

[7by7]

9 hours ago, jpinx said:

I take it you read the response here?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/965911-court-case-on-whether-brexit-can-be-reversed-to-be-filed-friday/?page=5#comment-11571385

I am too lazy to explain things to people who don't want to know

Not posted by you, posted well after I asked you those questions and after you had made several other responses on different matters to myself and others and it doesn't answer the questions I asked you anyway!

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Which is why some of us have largely 'switched off'.

 

When it comes down to every 'point' being argued by the legal profession, the discussion moves into an entirely different sphere.

 

Once the lawyers have finished 'arguing their point'/we know the resultant court decisions - it may then become more interesting as we read about what is actually happening.

Not only a legal challenge.

 

The amendment states: “The Prime Minister may not give the notification at section (1) until such time as Parliament has determined whether the UK should also seek to withdraw from the European Economic Area in accordance with Article 127 of the EEA.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-mps-force-vote-single-market-parliament-article-50-theresa-may-wes-streeting-chuka-a7553091.html

[jpinx]

15 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Not posted by you, posted well after I asked you those questions and after you had made several other responses on different matters to myself and others and it doesn't answer the questions I asked you anyway!

My posting sequencing is a matter of chance, depending on what else I am doing.  I am not glued to a keyboard all day.  I might be using a tiny mobile in a taxi or bus.  TVF is not a top priority for me, merely an entertainment when I have time and feel like it.

Did you read the post in the light of metrification enforcement by the EU causing a lot of hassle in UK (and elsewhere) ?

Does it matter if I answer you personally, or if someone else supplies a response that covers the topic to my satisfaction. You can respond to that poster directly, I'll see the conversation and maybe chip in again.

I don't divulge too much of my family information in a public forum .

The issue of the action going through the Irish court at present is not getting  alot of attention now, probably due to the natural delays in the legal process.  It'll be interesting to hear how it gets on when it goes to the ECJ.

 

[7by7]

The post in question was about the difficulties and confusions of having two, actually more than two as US measurements are often different to other non metric ones, systems used, especially in engineering; not about

9 hours ago, jpinx said:

metrification enforcement by the EU causing a lot of hassle in UK (and elsewhere) ?

If everyone used the same system, there would be no such difficulty and confusion.

 

The question about your grandson, about whom you say

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 10:56 AM, jpinx said:

My grandson much prefers nice simple feet and inches. 

 is relevant; because, as far as I am aware, unless he goes to school in the USA, Liberia or Myanmar, he will be taught using SI units, not Imperial ones.

 

Certainly the case if he goes to school in the UK; unless he left school in the1960s!

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 0:16 PM, 7by7 said:

Schools in the UK switched to SI units in maths and science back in the late 1960's, when I was at school. I must say that I found multiplying 3.5 metres by 4.5 metres much easier than multiplying 11 feet 5 and 3/4 inches by 14 feet 9 inches!  

 

I wonder which you and your grandson would find easier to calculate;

• 17 bushels at £1.12/6 per gallon, or
• 619 litres at £0.36 per litre?

 

Of course, if you are too lazy to answer, don't bother.

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by 7by7

[raro]

The discussion always circulates around how much a country pays into the EU but hardly ever about the benefits. Germany being the biggest payer is also the biggest exporter - world wide not only in Europe.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[jpinx]

14 hours ago, 7by7 said:

The post in question was about the difficulties and confusions of having two, actually more than two as US measurements are often different to other non metric ones, systems used, especially in engineering; not about

If everyone used the same system, there would be no such difficulty and confusion.

 

The question about your grandson, about whom you say

 is relevant; because, as far as I am aware, unless he goes to school in the USA, Liberia or Myanmar, he will be taught using SI units, not Imperial ones.

 

Certainly the case if he goes to school in the UK; unless he left school in the1960s!

 

I wonder which you and your grandson would find easier to calculate;

• 17 bushels at £1.12/6 per gallon, or
• 619 litres at £0.36 per litre?

 

Of course, if you are too lazy to answer, don't bother.

 

Oh dear - now you want to change the starting line?

School is not the only place kids learn.