Can Thai Visa actually make things even better

[Rimmer]

Baiting and flame posts removed

[jpinx]

15 hours ago, jpinx said:

Agreed -- the tourists are here for touristy things, but the expats do quite a lot of touristy stuff too -- sitting in bars, going for massage, eating out.  The Expats that are "up-country" are in a different situation, but we don't really have any idea what the split is between expats in Pattaya/ChiangMai/Phuket/etc and those who live "up-country"

What part of that post implies that Chiang Mai is "upcountry".? Where I come from the "up" in "up country" has more in common with the "up" in "up yours" or "up the junction" than any reference to what direction your should move your finger on a map.  Having said that, I also managed to list the main centres of tourism, including Chiang Mai, as one half of the comparison, thereby eliminating Chiang Mai from the "up country" categorisation. 

 

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I think the split probably looks something like this:

 

Expats spend their money on: real estate, home furnishings, cars/bikes, restaurants, supermarkets - more big ticket items, sex trade and bars to a lesser degree I suspect.

 

Tourists spend their money on: hotels, restaurants, bars, tours, sex trade, souvenirs - small shops, mom and pop operations, small operator income.

 

And by "up-country" I presume you mean rural Issan or the boonies?

Rural Thailand - I know plenty of very rural places in southern Thailand, and I'd refer to them as "up country" too, even though they're "down there".  The ins and outs of the ups and downs is very confusing - especially when you always travel "up" to the big city -- even if you are actually travelling south.  But to admit that you're "going south" would be a hopeless gaffe    :)

Edited February 4, 2017 by jpinx

[grollies]

16 hours ago, jpinx said:

Agreed -- the tourists are here for touristy things, but the expats do quite a lot of touristy stuff too -- sitting in bars, going for massage, eating out.  The Expats that are "up-country" are in a different situation, but we don't really have any idea what the split is between expats in Pattaya/ChiangMai/Phuket/etc and those who live "up-country"

There was a thread on this forum with a poll on the demographic of farangs in Thailand.

 

Can't find it now, maybe one of the admin chaps could.

[stud858]

A lot of posts knocking down the idea.

A lot of venting frustrations of how things work. I agree with a lot of the posts but if we all be polite and ask for some help magic could happen. No harm in being polite and trying.

 

The real juicy post I'm waiting for is from someone associated with TV stating that it's against the idea or possible that their influence could be used to put forward not complaints but suggestions to authorities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dale59]

Haha this is funny. The Thai authorities care about tourism for sure but could care less about westerners living there. I'm sure they'd be happy to see a mass migration by permanent westerners back to their own countries!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[georgemandm]

On 03/02/2017 at 7:12 AM, berybert said:

Tourist numbers are at record highs and going up millions every few seconds. The Thai authorities do not need anyone telling them what to do.

They are doing a perfect job and will have no quarms in telling anyone that asks.

So you believe what you read about the tourist number do you .

i think the thai  government like to talk those numbers up .

but up to you if you believe them .

[Odysseus123]

37 minutes ago, georgemandm said:

So you believe what you read about the tourist number do you .

i think the thai  government like to talk those numbers up .

but up to you if you believe them .

I think that the poster was being sarcastic and I smiled at the "going up millions every second" bit.

 

"Up,up and away...in my beautiful,my beautiful balloon.."

 

He/she is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong...

[rott]

On 2/3/2017 at 3:31 PM, smokie36 said:

....at times I wonder if any of you actually live here.

 

 

Is that not an infringement of our privacy,..??  

[rott]

Apparently I have just made my 1500th post, am I entitled to a digital lap of honour?

Edited February 5, 2017 by rott

[geriatrickid]

On 2/2/2017 at 7:27 PM, chiang mai said:

TAT's own figures show that the average tourist length of stay is five days and that their average spend is 5, 400 baht per day, that means every tourist who visits Thailand spends on average 27,000 baht.

Whiny old expats on the other hand spend a minimum of 40,000 baht per month or 480,000 baht per year, of which a minimum of 33,600 is spent on sales tax (7%).

 

Ergo, whiny old expats spend more every year in tax than the average tourist spends in total.

Just because you don't care about whiny old expats doesn't mean the governement doesn't.

 

You are missing the point. It's about net return on investment and profitability. Yes, some of the  expats spend money here, but for many, it is a zero sum transaction, adding nothing to the economy. Let me walk you through your numbers;

1. The use of a per person number for  tourism, isn't a good indicator. Aside from the sexpats of Patong, and Pattaya, most visitors to Thailand come as a couple or as a  family. Therefore the impact of the visit is even greater than you  realize, it's 10,000+ per day

 

2. The typical  tourist delivers more income per transaction than the typical expat retiree. Do the math. The typical visitor will eat most of his/her meals in a restaurant. Who wants to cook & do dishes while on holiday? That means 1-2 or even 3 meals a day  are purchased. The retiree is probably cooking at home because he cannot afford to eat out 2-3X a day. A hotel room at a low end hotel is 3500 baht. At a  nicer place it is 5,000+ baht a night. If hotel occupancy is 70% that means at least 20 nights, or income of 70,000 baht.  Compare that to your retiree's room rental of 20,000- 40,000 baht  per month. That old whinger is just covering his basics, nothing more.

 

3. Not all expats are the same. The working expats who have the homes and a monthly spend of 100,000 baht+ are  treated alright.  I can assure you that the  executive expats working for IBM or Toyota or Ford etc.do not have immigration hassles. No one at the accounting  or banking firms  gets harrassed the way some people on Thai Visa do.

 

The financially secure retirees  do just nicely because they don't cut corners and will pay for legal counsel and health insurance etc.  They don't trip up because of cheapness or financial constraints.  The expats who have wives and kids here have the benefit of advocates  in their wives. The Thai partner rides shotgun.  This leaves the expats living  hand to mouth existences and those  expats working in shady occupations like "dive masters", english teachers,day traders, IT clerks, time share touts etc. They are treated poorly because many of them do not merit anything better.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by geriatrickid

[georgemandm]

On 03/02/2017 at 1:09 PM, Deepinthailand said:

.Why should The Thai Authorities listen to forigners.  All they seem to want is free health care free/thai price admission. New laws so they can feel as though they are back in there nanny states. Oh yes and Thais out of Thailand. Turn this around a forum in UK run by Muslims expats telling the UK Authorities how to run there country or what laws would be better.!

Why not listen to foreigners if they are living in thailand and putting more in to the thai  economy that thai people do .

you talk about nanny state thailand would be the worst nanny state I have seen in my life .

Thais out of thailand never  Heard or seen any foreign what to see Thais out of thailand that is a  ridiculous statement .

You see in thailand no  freedom of speech for foreign in the nanny state thailand.

in your U.K. Muslins have a say in the way the country is run , but in thailand as a  permanent resident you as a  permanent  resident have no so in thailand a nanny state.

[chiang mai]

34 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

 

You are missing the point. It's about net return on investment and profitability. Yes, some of the  expats spend money here, but for many, it is a zero sum transaction, adding nothing to the economy. Let me walk you through your numbers;

1. The use of a per person number for  tourism, isn't a good indicator. Aside from the sexpats of Patong, and Pattaya, most visitors to Thailand come as a couple or as a  family. Therefore the impact of the visit is even greater than you  realize, it's 10,000+ per day

 

2. The typical  tourist delivers more income per transaction than the typical expat retiree. Do the math. The typical visitor will eat most of his/her meals in a restaurant. Who wants to cook & do dishes while on holiday? That means 1-2 or even 3 meals a day  are purchased. The retiree is probably cooking at home because he cannot afford to eat out 2-3X a day. A hotel room at a low end hotel is 3500 baht. At a  nicer place it is 5,000+ baht a night. If hotel occupancy is 70% that means at least 20 nights, or income of 70,000 baht.  Compare that to your retiree's room rental of 20,000- 40,000 baht  per month. That old whinger is just covering his basics, nothing more.

 

3. Not all expats are the same. The working expats who have the homes and a monthly spend of 100,000 baht+ are  treated alright.  I can assure you that the  executive expats working for IBM or Toyota or Ford etc.do not have immigration hassles. No one at the accounting  or banking firms  gets harrassed the way some people on Thai Visa do.

 

The financially secure retirees  do just nicely because they don't cut corners and will pay for legal counsel and health insurance etc.  They don't trip up because of cheapness or financial constraints.  The expats who have wives and kids here have the benefit of advocates  in their wives. The Thai partner rides shotgun.  This leaves the expats living  hand to mouth existences and those  expats working in shady occupations like "dive masters", english teachers,day traders, IT clerks, time share touts etc. They are treated poorly because many of them do not merit anything better.

 

 

You have to use TAT's numbers, you can't make up your own! TAT says the average tourist spends 5,400 per day for nine days a year.

 

And you have to presume that TAT knows the difference between one person and two, so you can't say let's imagine that for every one visitor there's an imaginary second person who's invisible but actually spends money!!!

 

AND and, where the tourist or expat spends their money is irrelevant, the money gets brought into Thailand gets spent, arguing that the two entities spend money differently doesn't change the numbers.

 

And and and, you make lots of assumptions that are unsupported, such as: "The retiree is probably cooking at home because he cannot afford to eat out", and " your retiree's room rental of 20,000- 40,000 baht  per month. That old whinger is just covering his basics, nothing more" - people living in 40k a month accomodation and living hand to mouth, really!

[YeahSiam]

1 hour ago, georgemandm said:

Why not listen to foreigners if they are living in thailand and putting more in to the thai  economy that thai people do .

you talk about nanny state thailand would be the worst nanny state I have seen in my life .

Thais out of thailand never  Heard or seen any foreign what to see Thais out of thailand that is a  ridiculous statement .

You see in thailand no  freedom of speech for foreign in the nanny state thailand.

in your U.K. Muslins have a say in the way the country is run , but in thailand as a  permanent resident you as a  permanent  resident have no so in thailand a nanny state.

Honestly, what the hell are you talking about, George?

As if having only just enough knowledge to be dangerous isn't bad enough but you can barely string a sentence together in English.

 

Muslims don't have a say in the way the UK is run based on their being Muslims.

They have a say in the way the UK is run based on their being eligible to vote as British citizens.

 

Wealthy Russians and other nationalities living in London's most exclusive areas don't have a say in how the UK is run even though they bring in serious money.

If people with that kind of money don't get a say, how do you figure a group of economic migrants here for the cheaper living costs should have a say in how Thailand is run?

[georgemandm]

1 hour ago, YeahSiam said:

Honestly, what the hell are you talking about, George?

As if having only just enough knowledge to be dangerous isn't bad enough but you can barely string a sentence together in English.

 

Muslims don't have a say in the way the UK is run based on their being Muslims.

They have a say in the way the UK is run based on their being eligible to vote as British citizens.

 

Wealthy Russians and other nationalities living in London's most exclusive areas don't have a say in how the UK is run even though they bring in serious money.

If people with that kind of money don't get a say, how do you figure a group of economic migrants here for the cheaper living costs should have a say in how Thailand is run?

That is what I am saying voteing rights in the U.K. .

so are you better them because my English is not up to your standards no you are not .

because western in thailand are putting money in to the country are they not , yes they are .

thats why they should have a say .

so get of your high horse and think how much money is  poured in to thailand through the money from western.

[stud858]

TV. I'll leave this thread for now, but if anyone from TV management wants to talk more about such a proposal outlined in my first post feel free to contact me.

Everyone else, have a great day.

 

[YeahSiam]

1 hour ago, georgemandm said:

That is what I am saying voteing rights in the U.K. .

so are you better them because my English is not up to your standards no you are not .

because western in thailand are putting money in to the country are they not , yes they are .

thats why they should have a say .

so get of your high horse and think how much money is  poured in to thailand through the money from western.

It's not about being "better", George; it's about being "understood".

You're too clueless to even bother replying to half the time

[georgemandm]

5 hours ago, YeahSiam said:

It's not about being "better", George; it's about being "understood".

You're too clueless to even bother replying to half the time

I am to clueless , its not that , it's you just don't like it that I tell the truth.

you see  blokes like you go to thailand with blikers on and when someone like me gets on here and knows what his is talking about , to tell  it as it is you get up set .

 

[wildewillie89]

On 2/3/2017 at 3:18 PM, chiang mai said:

But the only spend numbers you can use for tourists is TAT's own average of 5,400 baht per person per day for 9 days.

 

TAT says 35 million tourists, estimates vary regarding long term expat residents from 2.5 million to 7 million, take your pick.

 

I don't dispute TAT numbers on how much people spend per day, the government doesn't also...however, didn't the army say they want to change the focus from many 'budget' style holidays (the 5,400 per day), to small rich holiday groups (that spend ridiculous amounts in short stays). The reasoning the military put for this change of focus is to 'bolster the tourism industry longer term'. 

In terms of the expat issue, the numbers are subjective. From what I can see, the Immigration Department (the only dept who would know the exact figures), will not even release the number. Some organisations estimates put it at between 500,000 to 1,000,000 (according to Asia Correspondence). Clearly TAT say another figure as it is another organisation. Immigration do note, however, that many expats do not stay long term, and end up leaving due to boredom and depression, which they say are caused by lack of money in many instances. 

So if we take only 5% of all this as true, then the government, it seems, have weighed up the pros and cons of this, and decided that these small rich groups are more worthwhile than old whiny expats. Which is evident in visas being tightened up a tiny bit. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by wildewillie89

[geriatrickid]

22 hours ago, chiang mai said:

You have to use TAT's numbers, you can't make up your own! TAT says the average tourist spends 5,400 per day for nine days a year.

 

And you have to presume that TAT knows the difference between one person and two, so you can't say let's imagine that for every one visitor there's an imaginary second person who's invisible but actually spends money!!!

 

AND and, where the tourist or expat spends their money is irrelevant, the money gets brought into Thailand gets spent, arguing that the two entities spend money differently doesn't change the numbers.

 

And and and, you make lots of assumptions that are unsupported, such as: "The retiree is probably cooking at home because he cannot afford to eat out", and " your retiree's room rental of 20,000- 40,000 baht  per month. That old whinger is just covering his basics, nothing more" - people living in 40k a month accomodation and living hand to mouth, really!

 

Ok, we will  use the 5400 value you reference. That means that a couple is pending 10,800 per day, Good golly, that's 800 baht more than the number I used. If that couple stays 9 days as you say, they will spend 97,200 baht in a  9 day period.  (I believe that number is   too high, but this is the number you want me to use.) 

 

Meanwhile Willy Whinger the  hand to mouth retiree, is staying in his 1 room  with fan at the local roach motel.  Perhaps he has a good deal  at 20,000 baht per month, water and electricity included.  That works out to 2222 baht for  the 9 day period. Let's be generous and say he spends an additional 5,000 baht during that period. That puts him at  7222. Let's be even more generous and bump him to 9,000 baht.

 

Goodness, gracious he is at 1/10th the spending of that tourist couple. Is it any surprise that the tourist couple are of more interest than the  marginalized low end retiree? It's not any different than in their homelands is it?  The retirees with  money don't have the same issues or problems  as the whinging boiler room workers or retirees.

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by geriatrickid

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

 

Ok, we will  use the 5400 value you reference. That means that a couple is pending 10,800 per day, Good golly, that's 800 baht more than the number I used. If that couple stays 9 days as you say, they will spend 97,200 baht in a  9 day period.  (I believe that number is   too high, but this is the number you want me to use.) 

 

Meanwhile Willy Whinger the  hand to mouth retiree, is staying in his 1 room  with fan at the local roach motel.  Perhaps he has a good deal  at 20,000 baht per month, water and electricity included.  That works out to 2222 baht for  the 9 day period. Let's be generous and say he spends an additional 5,000 baht during that period. That puts him at  7222. Let's be even more generous and bump him to 9,000 baht.

 

Goodness, gracious he is at 1/10th the spending of that tourist couple. Is it any surprise that the tourist couple are of more interest than the  marginalized low end retiree? It's not any different than in their homelands is it?  The retirees with  money don't have the same issues or problems  as the whinging boiler room workers or retirees.

 

You've lost the plot!!!

 

You compare the spend of TWO tourists over nine days against the spend of a single resident retiree and claim the tourists spend more and conveniently forget the remaining 356 days in the year that the retiree spends money here - I have to ask you if you are unwell!

 

And exactly why you think retirees always live hand to mouth here escapes me, 20/25k a month will rent a very very nice 2 bed condo at Floral, a very desirable condo complex near downtown CM. Plus I'm a retiree and I spend everyday, each year I spend in excess of 1 mill. baht, does that make me hand to mouth and whiny also.

 

Honestly, your post is just too crazy to be even considered.

[Get Real]

Great idea! Next one is going to be HomePro, telling everybody how to barbecue their steaks. 

[YeahSiam]

55 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

And exactly why you think retirees always live hand to mouth here escapes me, 20/25k a month will rent a very very nice 2 bed condo at Floral, a very desirable condo complex near downtown CM. Plus I'm a retiree and I spend everyday, each year I spend in excess of 1 mill. baht, does that make me hand to mouth and whiny also.

Because a lot of them do live hand-to-mouth.

Of course, some retirees are very comfortable indeed but, at the end of the day, most of them are here to stretch their pensions.

How do you figure that people stretching a pension can, at the same time, claim to be a cornerstone of the Thai economy?

 

They're the most vocal complainants when foreign exchange rates go against them

They're the farang contingent most heavily represented at the Tesco Lotus and Big C food courts.

They're the most likely to be drinking early doors at happy hour in order to save money.

 

A valiant effort, CM, but I'm afraid that your demographic won't be awarded medals, sashes and inductions into the Economic Friends of Thailand VIP group any time soon.

[chiang mai]

37 minutes ago, YeahSiam said:

Because a lot of them do live hand-to-mouth.

Of course, some retirees are very comfortable indeed but, at the end of the day, most of them are here to stretch their pensions.

How do you figure that people stretching a pension can, at the same time, claim to be a cornerstone of the Thai economy?

 

They're the most vocal complainants when foreign exchange rates go against them

They're the farang contingent most heavily represented at the Tesco Lotus and Big C food courts.

They're the most likely to be drinking early doors at happy hour in order to save money.

 

A valiant effort, CM, but I'm afraid that your demographic won't be awarded medals, sashes and inductions into the Economic Friends of Thailand VIP group any time soon.

Cornerstone of the Thai economy!!! Say what!

 

I made a very simple mathematical comparison between the economic value of ONE tourist in Thailand versus that of ONE resident expat retiree, using TAT's own published figures and you don't get that!! Please tell me you get it and that your ability to read and comprehend hasn't been totally lost and that your brain has really turned to complete mush!

 

 

[smokie36]

Of vague relevance but I was recently at a BCCT dinner in Pattaya where the speaker was the new British Ambassador.

 

I thought the main topic once the floor was open would be the pension issue for Brits retired here but it wasn't even mentioned.

 

I'm well aware its not something he can directly influence but I was surprised it wasn't mentioned....and a fair deal for them is something I do support despite being 25 years away from receiving any such pittance.

 

Nice fella the new ambassador anyway.

 

 

[JAFO]

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Ok, we will  use the 5400 value you reference. That means that a couple is pending 10,800 per day, Good golly, that's 800 baht more than the number I used. If that couple stays 9 days as you say, they will spend 97,200 baht in a  9 day period.  (I believe that number is   too high, but this is the number you want me to use.) 

 

Meanwhile Willy Whinger the  hand to mouth retiree, is staying in his 1 room  with fan at the local roach motel.  Perhaps he has a good deal  at 20,000 baht per month, water and electricity included.  That works out to 2222 baht for  the 9 day period. Let's be generous and say he spends an additional 5,000 baht during that period. That puts him at  7222. Let's be even more generous and bump him to 9,000 baht.

 

Goodness, gracious he is at 1/10th the spending of that tourist couple. Is it any surprise that the tourist couple are of more interest than the  marginalized low end retiree? It's not any different than in their homelands is it?  The retirees with  money don't have the same issues or problems  as the whinging boiler room workers or retirees.

 

Well posted along ith the other one. 

 

Interesting thread and not sure where its going but read some interesting comments

 

To GeriatricKids posts, I agree. The tourist segment most definitely generates the most money and will get the best treatment. It's really quite obvious. I spend a month for my nicely serviced condo for what most westerners spend in one night at a hotel, toss in overpriced tour services, likely overpriced food, overpriced gifts etc etc. While I agree with CM that not all retirees here live hand to mouth I suspect(I have no data) that the greater majority do.  The "Willy Whinger" as posted does live hand to mouth. I see it here where I am living. This segment is on a fixed budget and spends very little, eats cheaply, seldom ever travels and never pays for a top hotel, tour services etc. Again nothing wrong with it, whatever works but they clearly are not doing much for the Thai economy. Its bare bones living and paying minimal, if any taxes. 

 

Tourism will always lead the way and they will get the preferential treatment.  

 

[JAFO]

On 2/5/2017 at 0:42 PM, geriatrickid said:

3. Not all expats are the same. The working expats who have the homes and a monthly spend of 100,000 baht+ are  treated alright.  I can assure you that the  executive expats working for IBM or Toyota or Ford etc.do not have immigration hassles. No one at the accounting  or banking firms  gets harrassed the way some people on Thai Visa do.

 

Absolutely true. I have no issues with immigration, it is all handled by the company as it always has been. The expats here are not on fixed budgets either. Plus they are establishing themselves in the "System" and later if they decide to stay they have paid taxes and usually have established relationships with many Thais and others. I never have the hassles that most of these guys go on about and I do not sit around and fixate on all the crap that gets posted here. 

[chiang mai]

12 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Well posted along ith the other one. 

 

Interesting thread and not sure where its going but read some interesting comments

 

To GeriatricKids posts, I agree. The tourist segment most definitely generates the most money and will get the best treatment. It's really quite obvious. I spend a month for my nicely serviced condo for what most westerners spend in one night at a hotel, toss in overpriced tour services, likely overpriced food, overpriced gifts etc etc. While I agree with CM that not all retirees here live hand to mouth I suspect(I have no data) that the greater majority do.  The "Willy Whinger" as posted does live hand to mouth. I see it here where I am living. This segment is on a fixed budget and spends very little, eats cheaply, seldom ever travels and never pays for a top hotel, tour services etc. Again nothing wrong with it, whatever works but they clearly are not doing much for the Thai economy. Its bare bones living and paying minimal, if any taxes. 

 

Tourism will always lead the way and they will get the preferential treatment.  

 

One more time:

 

So you agree that a single tourist who spends on average 5,400 per day for nine days, TAT's own figures per my earlier post, spends more per year than the resident expat who lives here year round? Are you sure about that, I mean really really sure!

[JAFO]

8 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

One more time:

 

So you agree that a single tourist who spends on average 5,400 per day for nine days, TAT's own figures per my earlier post, spends more per year than the resident expat who lives here year round? Are you sure about that, I mean really really sure!

How many tourists land here every day? Do the math. Again, hard to come up with the average for the "living in Thailand" expat. But there is no way that the majority is spending 5400 baht a day living here and there are not that many expats here. In fact most "Living here in Thailand" posters come on this site (if we want to use this as an ugly model) and spout on and on how they can live on a virtually nothing. And I question the TAT numbers of 5400 a day. But again guess we have to consider the high end visitors and the backpacker eat bugs types. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by JAFO

[chiang mai]

20 minutes ago, JAFO said:

How many tourists land here every day? Do the math. Again, hard to come up with the average for the "living in Thailand" expat. But there is no way that the majority is spending 5400 baht a day living here and there are not that many expats here. In fact most "Living here in Thailand" posters come on this site (if we want to use this as an ugly model) and spout on and on how they can live on a virtually nothing. And I question the TAT numbers of 5400 a day. But again guess we have to consider the high end visitors and the backpacker eat bugs types. 

You don't understand the meaning of the word average, do you!

 

Here, try reading the post that started to generate all the nonsense replies and perhaps the coin will drop!

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by chiang mai

[smokie36]

I find it really funny that you continue your pointless drivel argument and ignored my factual comment folks.

 

It really shows me what you are all about...especially those of you active on your pension thread.

 

Some of you would argue what face is on a ten baht coin...its hilarious when there are real issues out there.

Edited February 6, 2017 by smokie36