"Outdated" Thai police getting new guns to keep up with the bad guys

[Rhys]

I guess that little girl is going to have fun learning how to clean the weapon...

 

What did the US Army decide on the new choice of Side Arm?  Was there not a major change as well?

 

 

[The Deerhunter]

24 minutes ago, Rhys said:

I guess that little girl is going to have fun learning how to clean the weapon...

 

What did the US Army decide on the new choice of Side Arm?  Was there not a major change as well?

 

 

Sig as well. But undoubtedly a different model.  I never liked the feel of the Beretta M92 (P9) in my hand.  They always felt out of balance and the 

skeletonised slide took a bit of getting used to.   A change for the better I am sure.  I think the navy & Marines declined the Beretta and went with the Sig and the H&K Mk 23 SOCOM for elite forces.  (Don't ask!  look it up under Gogle images)  A BIG pistol. I sold a (very) few of them too.

Edited February 14, 2017 by The Deerhunter

[Thongkorn]

1 hour ago, DieterWiehe said:

can the average Policeman afford to buy this gun? usually the have to buy the service pistol (sidearm) i have seen an assortment of sidearms carried by Police officers starting from Luger 08. to Walther p38. Beretta and  an assortment of revolvers.   

 Police in Thailand are not paid a lot, The foot soldier that is,  Also If Thai police where Issued with the same gun throughout the force things would be easier, But  Some Thai police do not want that, The favorite gun of choice is the 45,

[captspectre]

On 2/13/2017 at 10:01 AM, Thaiwrath said:

Replacing the 'outdated' police themselves with new ones would be a better idea.

Thai police have tasers?  have not seen one so far.

[Rhys]

34 minutes ago, The Deerhunter said:

Sig as well. But undoubtedly a different model.  I never liked the feel of the Beretta M92 (P9) in my hand.  They always felt out of balance and the 

skeletonised slide took a bit of getting used to.   A change for the better I am sure.  I think the navy & Marines declined the Beretta and went with the Sig and the H&K Mk 23 SOCOM for elite forces.  (Don't ask!  look it up under Gogle images)  A BIG pistol. I sold a (very) few of them too.

 

 

 What about the COLT BDA...9mm

 

[dcnx]

And they will still ride their cute Hello Kitty scooters.

[Rhys]

7 minutes ago, dcnx said:

And they will still ride their cute Hello Kitty scooters.

 

They are on the CBR 300 with the defective crankshafts...

[TonyClifton]

You better hope the Thais don't outfit their police with Glocks.  If they do, I can guarantee you, that there will be may Thai Police Officers who will shot themselves in the thigh or foot.

 

Just remember I told you here, and now.  

 

Glocks are not for the careless.

[The Deerhunter]

23 hours ago, Rhys said:

 

 What about the COLT BDA...9mm

 

Never heard of it, only the Browning BDA made from 1977 - 1980, a 3 year wonder. So what about it anyway, in relation to this news item?

[Arkady]

10 hours ago, TonyClifton said:

You better hope the Thais don't outfit their police with Glocks.  If they do, I can guarantee you, that there will be may Thai Police Officers who will shot themselves in the thigh or foot.

 

Just remember I told you here, and now.  

 

Glocks are not for the careless.

 

I have never owned a Glock but own of its problems historically has been that, in order to field strip it for cleaning, it is necessary to pull the trigger to get the slide off the frame. (I am not sure if this applies to the current Gen 4 Glocks.) A lot of US cops have had nasty accidents doing this and I would think Thai police would have even more problems.  Yes, any striker fired pistol increases the risk of a negligent discharge, compared to a hammer fired pistol, as there is no proper safety.  An argument is often made this is no different from a revolver which also has no safety but the trigger pull on a revolver in double action mode, i.e. with the hammer down, is quite long and heavy (over 10lbs).  The trigger pull on a Glock and other similar striker fired pistols is much shorter and only about 5 pounds.   A badly trained cop drawing a Glock under stress with his finger on the trigger prematurely could easily shoot himself in the thigh or elsewhere, if he hasn't already shot himself field stripping it.

 

Definitely the police would only order handguns in 9mm Luger, not .38 Super, which is only used by competitive shooters,  or .380 which is a shorter and lower powered version of the 9mm and is only used for small concealable guns like James Bond's Walther PPK. .40 caliber ammunition is used by a number US police depts but is not widely available in Thailand and a lot more expensive.  .45 ACP is readily available be can also be ruled out on grounds of greater cost, weight and bulk.  A box of 50 is almost double the bulk and weight of a box of 50 9mm Luger.

[The Deerhunter]

On 2/13/2017 at 11:52 PM, Dogmatix said:

It's a very confusing article without much detail but the order for the 150,000 Sig Sauer 320s two years ago was clearly done through the Interior Ministry's civil servant welfare scheme which imports guns and sells to approved civil servants, including coppers, at a discount to local gun store prices but still at a significant premium to US prices.  They said they were importing them from the US at the time but who knows if they got them, since Western European arms manufacturers have been embargoing sales to Thailand since the mid 2000s due to concerns over human rights abuses by security forces in the Deep South.  A few guns at a time can slip through from US wholesalers but I guess a large shipment would have had been difficult to organise without alerting Sig Sauer HQ in Switzerland.  I would guess they would have the same problems obtaining a large order of Glocks from via the US too without someone from Glock in Austria getting involved.   East European manufacturers like CZ just want to make money and ignore the European boycott and ship direct to Thailand.  

 

Notwithstanding potential difficulties in obtaining a large order of Western European handguns for police use I think the article was trying to say the police planned to order some Glock handguns for their own stock, as opposed to the Sigs that were for the welfare scheme.  As the article suggests they do have ancient .38 special revolvers for general issue but no self respecting policeman would be seen dead wearing one of those.  If the carry revolvers at all these days, it is usually a .357 magnum.   Perhaps they are really thinking of introducing a standard issue side arm. It would make sense for them all to be trained on the same weapon and for police armourers to maintain just one type of gun.  But it seems unlikely that will happen, as that would be too efficient.  More likely most of the Glocks, if they can obtain them at all, would mysteriously  disappear somewhere. 

 

The Glock 17 has a magazine capacity of 17 rounds, vs the 15 stated in the article.  

 

On 2/13/2017 at 11:23 PM, Dogmatix said:

Starting at 0.49 there is a guy shooting with his left thumb over his right hand.  He is lucky the slide didn't rip his thumb open.  None of these look like experienced shooters.  They are Brits anyway, so not surprising.

Looks like right thumb over left hand to me in the video I see on my screen unless it is possible to "flip" a video????

[The Deerhunter]

On 2/13/2017 at 11:52 PM, Dogmatix said:

It's a very confusing article without much detail but the order for the 150,000 Sig Sauer 320s two years ago was clearly done through the Interior Ministry's civil servant welfare scheme which imports guns and sells to approved civil servants, including coppers, at a discount to local gun store prices but still at a significant premium to US prices.  They said they were importing them from the US at the time but who knows if they got them, since Western European arms manufacturers have been embargoing sales to Thailand since the mid 2000s due to concerns over human rights abuses by security forces in the Deep South.  A few guns at a time can slip through from US wholesalers but I guess a large shipment would have had been difficult to organise without alerting Sig Sauer HQ in Switzerland.  I would guess they would have the same problems obtaining a large order of Glocks from via the US too without someone from Glock in Austria getting involved.   East European manufacturers like CZ just want to make money and ignore the European boycott and ship direct to Thailand.  

 

Notwithstanding potential difficulties in obtaining a large order of Western European handguns for police use I think the article was trying to say the police planned to order some Glock handguns for their own stock, as opposed to the Sigs that were for the welfare scheme.  As the article suggests they do have ancient .38 special revolvers for general issue but no self respecting policeman would be seen dead wearing one of those.  If the carry revolvers at all these days, it is usually a .357 magnum.   Perhaps they are really thinking of introducing a standard issue side arm. It would make sense for them all to be trained on the same weapon and for police armourers to maintain just one type of gun.  But it seems unlikely that will happen, as that would be too efficient.  More likely most of the Glocks, if they can obtain them at all, would mysteriously  disappear somewhere. 

 

The Glock 17 has a magazine capacity of 17 rounds, vs the 15 stated in the article.  

With the woeful training that they get and the lack of discipline evident, Buddhas help them if they get Glocks.  Even with the New York trigger, (heavier pull than standard)  Glocks have been proven real easy for cops to shoot themselves with.  In a stressful situation, cop goes to hand cuff the bad guy with his blood stream full of adrenaline.  He goes to holster gun with finger still too near the trigger.  Full of nerves, he jams gun into holster & does not even feel the edge of the holster on the back of his trigger finger or ignores it.  Glocks have a patented "safe-action" system that does NOT include any form of manual safety catch.  Under such circumstances many MANY!!!! cops have shot themselves in the thigh, knee or foot.  On stuffing a gun away into ones waist band the trigger (with or without finger involvement) can collide with a fold of waistband material or the belt buckle.  No prizes where that bullet goes.  Glocks are very reliable and lovely to handle.  They seem like such a good idea because of their simplicity but in practice require a lot of training, self discipline and self awareness.  This includes the situation of a felon grabbing the gun off the cop and not needing to release a safety, just pointing it and pulling on the trigger.  BANG!

[madusa]

On 2017/2/12 at 7:07 PM, madmitch said:

 

Could this mean thousands of old guns for sale on the open market?

I was having the same thought.  (well, to do a little self-praise:  great men think alike ).

Somehow they will end up on the market. If you can be middle man who buys and sells you could be rich. Of course be smart you pay someone to do handling part, so you don't show your face around. You only conduct business via phone.

[Dogmatix]

17 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

With the woeful training that they get and the lack of discipline evident, Buddhas help them if they get Glocks.  Even with the New York trigger, (heavier pull than standard)  Glocks have been proven real easy for cops to shoot themselves with.  In a stressful situation, cop goes to hand cuff the bad guy with his blood stream full of adrenaline.  He goes to holster gun with finger still too near the trigger.  Full of nerves, he jams gun into holster & does not even feel the edge of the holster on the back of his trigger finger or ignores it.  Glocks have a patented "safe-action" system that does NOT include any form of manual safety catch.  Under such circumstances many MANY!!!! cops have shot themselves in the thigh, knee or foot.  On stuffing a gun away into ones waist band the trigger (with or without finger involvement) can collide with a fold of waistband material or the belt buckle.  No prizes where that bullet goes.  Glocks are very reliable and lovely to handle.  They seem like such a good idea because of their simplicity but in practice require a lot of training, self discipline and self awareness.  This includes the situation of a felon grabbing the gun off the cop and not needing to release a safety, just pointing it and pulling on the trigger.  BANG!

 

Google 'Glock accidental discharge' and find copious accounts of US cops accidentally shooting themselves, other cops and innocent members of the public with Glocks. The trigger pull is too short and light for a gun with no manual safety or any other useful safety features despite the manufacturer's ridiculous hype. Other striker fired pistols are the same. A two year old being pushed around a supermarket in a trolley grabbed his mom's striker fired Smith & Wesson M&P from her purse and easily worked the trigger to shoot his mon dead.

 

Police should have hammer fired pistols with a long, heavy trigger pull for the first shoot and a manual safety like the Heckler & Koch P30 that is designed by the Germans specifically for law enforcement and military and has much better ergonomics and handling than a Glock, albeit at a higher price. Even the old Beretta 92 would fit the bill better than a Glock. 

 

But we are fantacising here. None of the Western European manufacturers is going to risk bad publicity by allowing a large shipment to Thai police with a military government in place. Also the police are never going to use their own budget to buy guns for officers when they already have a system in place for new recruits to  shake down members of the public and go buy their own gun and motor bike.

[rosst]

I would suggest more focus on standards and training, spend the money on rooting out corruption. 

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, rosst said:

I would suggest more focus on standards and training, spend the money on rooting out corruption. 

You are right but pigs will fly first. There is no point in trying to introduce a standard handgun, if that's really what this is about, without having the resources for training officers and armourers in the use and maintenance of the weapons.  They won't do this because they make cops pay for their own ammo which means it is left to them to decide how much they practice and they leave maintenance to the officers themselves.  I would guess police armourers, such as they are, only take responsibility for the small numbers of  M16s and shotguns they keep in station armouries for pool use.  Actually the ammo that police use in their service weapons should also be standardised and provided with enough for regular practice.  They should give police ammo that is most effective at stopping threats from suspects and least likely to hit innocent bystanders behind them. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Dogmatix

[nong38]

I think they are the 100 cap models.

[PaPiPuPePo]

On 2/13/2017 at 0:46 PM, fstarbkk said:

 No you can't. Beside the fact that the 9mm is actually two thousandths of an inch smaller in diameter, than the .38 ( actually .357 vs. .355") the length and profile of the two cartridges differs substantially. While the .38 is traditionally a revolver cartridge there are a few semi-auto pistols that come in a .38 version, of which the Glock 17 is not one.

 

The Glock would have to be in .38 Super, no?, since .38Sp being a rimmed cartridge is also revolver-only. Only .38 Super with the semi-rebated rim will feed from a magazine :-).

[fstarbkk]

16 minutes ago, PaPiPuPePo said:

The Glock would have to be in .38 Super, no?, since .38Sp being a rimmed cartridge is also revolver-only. Only .38 Super with the semi-rebated rim will feed from a magazine :-).

Quite right my friend. But as best as I can determine, the Glock was never offered in either version. 

[PaPiPuPePo]

1 hour ago, PaPiPuPePo said:

.....semi-rebated rim will feed from a magazine :-).

so-called "rimless"....