UK TV's for wife and daughter

[Baricello]

My daughter's Notice of "Refusal to a Thai National" was given by the ECO as failing



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[Baricello]

to supply suitable travel, care and reception arrangements in the United Kingdom!

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[7by7]

1 hour ago, Baricello said:

My daughter's Notice of "Refusal to a Thai National" was given by the ECO as failing

 

59 minutes ago, Baricello said:

to supply suitable travel, care and reception arrangements in the United Kingdom!

 As the post by Tony M I quoted says, VFS should not have accepted your daughter's application because she is a British citizen. Having got through VFS then the ECO should have refused it because your daughter is a British citizen.

 

That is what should have happened; but, as both Tony M and I said, it is not unusual for the fact that an applicant is a British citizen to go unnoticed by both VFS and the ECO. Which is obviously what happened in your daughter's case.

 

Were she to have applied again they may have noticed, as they should have done first time.

 

As I said, all this is now moot for you as you are now obtaining a British passport for her; but maybe useful for others reading this to know.

 

 

[Baricello]

Not so! According to the Immigration Office in London, being eligible for being British by descent, does not mean that UK citizenship is automatically granted by birth! So both the VFS and the ECO were correct in accepting my daughter's application, as she was at that time a registered Thai national only. Not a British citizen!
It would only be pursuant to her passport application and subsequent enquiries having been satisfied as to her parentage, that a UK passport be granted, subsequently confirming her registration as a British citizen!
This information being for the benefit of others reading this rather protracted thread, as to being 100% correct as
confirmed to me by the UK Immigration Office in London yesterday.

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[theoldgit]

@Baricello   As a matter of interest, which Immigration Office in London are you referring to?

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

Not so! According to the Immigration Office in London, being eligible for being British by descent, does not mean that UK citizenship is automatically granted by birth! So both the VFS and the ECO were correct in accepting my daughter's application, as she was at that time a registered Thai national only. Not a British citizen!
It would only be pursuant to her passport application and subsequent enquiries having been satisfied as to her parentage, that a UK passport be granted, subsequently confirming her registration as a British citizen!
This information being for the benefit of others reading this rather protracted thread, as to being 100% correct as
confirmed to me by the UK Immigration Office in London yesterday.

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Strange then, when my colleague applied for UK visitor visas for his twin sons who both held Thai passports, he was told that they couldn't have visas, as they could and should apply for UK passports. If there subsequently had turned out to be a problem with their parentage (as there nearly was with my son's application) and the passport application was rejected, they would then have to apply for the visa.

[Baricello]

Strange indeed!

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[Baricello]

To theoldgit,
I used the Gov. Passport General Information Enquiry Helpline telephone number in the UK. +44(0)300 222 000.
I'm sorry I don't know the location of the office!

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[7by7]

3 hours ago, Baricello said:

According to the Immigration Office in London, being eligible for being British by descent, does not mean that UK citizenship is automatically granted by birth!

3 minutes ago, Baricello said:

To theoldgit,
I used the Gov. Passport General Information Enquiry Helpline telephone number in the UK. +44(0)300 222 000.
I'm sorry I don't know the location of the office!

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That is not an immigration office!

 

Like the actual UKVI helpline, a lot depends on the exact question you asked. But whatever you asked, I am not surprised at the vagueness of their answer. They can only give general answers and cannot answer specific questions about an individual's circumstances.  Some people born abroad are automatically British, others are not but are eligible to apply to become British.

 

From everything you have told us, your daughter is automatically British. from "British citizenship by descent" on page 7 of this Home Office guide.

Quote

British citizenship may descend to one generation born abroad. So a child born abroad to a parent who is British otherwise than by descent will automatically be British by descent.
 
The exception is  a child born before 1 July 2006 to a British father and non-British mother who were not married. The child will be able to apply for registration under section 4G using form UKF.

(7by7 emphasis)

So if you are British otherwise than by descent and your daughter was born on or after 1st July 2006 she is automatically British by descent. If she was born before 1st July 2006 the only reason she would not automatically be British by descent is if you and her mother were not married.

 

If the British parent is British by descent then the child is not automatically British; but it may be possible to register them as such. The guide continues

Quote

Children born to parents who are British by descent have no automatic claim to British citizenship. Applications may be made through entitlement under section 3(2) or section 3(5) if children satisfy the requirements for registration. Or they may apply at the Home Secretary’s discretion under section 3(1) if there are compelling or exceptional reasons for registering a child as British.

 

[theoldgit]

13 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

That is not an immigration office!

Indeed it's an international call centre answering generic questions from a prepared script.

It's a contracted out service operated by HGS, a Delhi based operation run by the Hinduja brothers, they don't have the best of reputations.

[Baricello]

I am well aware that this is not an Immigration Office, but this is the only number listed on the Gov sites as a UK enquiry line, and as my enquiry was lmmigration/Passport related, I saw no problem!
As to your being "surprised at the vagueness of their answer", I made no mention of there being any such response to my enquiry.
The person I eventually spoke to was an Immigration
Officer, and can assure you, he was far from being vague, and was quite adept at answering my specific questions

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[Baricello]

The Call Centre is based in Lahore, and the the representative has the option of transferring the call to the UK, subject to the time difference, as happened in my case!


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[7by7]

Barricello;

 

You obviously prefer to believe a person on the end of a telephone line giving generic answers from a script to official information published by the Home Office!

 

If you still don't believe what that document says, read  '2 Acquisition by descent' of the British nationality Act 1981.

Quote

(1)A person born outside the United Kingdom [F17and the qualifying territories] after commencement shall be a British citizen if at the time of the birth his father or mother—

(a)is a British citizen otherwise than by descent

 

Unless there is something about your circumstances which you are not telling us; e.g. you, yourself, are British by descent, or she was born before 1st July 2006 and you are not legally married to her mother, your daughter automatically became British at the time of her birth.

 

If, having read the Home Office guidance and the Act itself, you still refuse to believe this, then there is no hope of convincing you and I give up.

[Baricello]

I am totally indifferent to whom I believe, but having spoken to an Immigration Officer in the UK, I feel quite satisfied with the answers I received to my non generic questions that he could not have possibly answered from a script!
However, I'm much obliged for the time and trouble you and your colleagues have taken in imparting to me your exemplary knowledge of UK Home Office Immigration Guidance and Act.
In conclusion, I would say that this thread has proved most enlightening, and please never give up!


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[bobrussell]

8 hours ago, Baricello said:

Not so! According to the Immigration Office in London, being eligible for being British by descent, does not mean that UK citizenship is automatically granted by birth! So both the VFS and the ECO were correct in accepting my daughter's application, as she was at that time a registered Thai national only. Not a British citizen!
It would only be pursuant to her passport application and subsequent enquiries having been satisfied as to her parentage, that a UK passport be granted, subsequently confirming her registration as a British citizen!
This information being for the benefit of others reading this rather protracted thread, as to being 100% correct as
confirmed to me by the UK Immigration Office in London yesterday.

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I am hesitant to get into a heated discussion but there are some circumstances where a child is automatically British. I tend to agree that this is probably the case here.

It is not a question of being granted citizenship, it is an automatic right if one parent is British other than descent. There was a time when a few more hoops had to be jumped through. One of my nephews was born under the previous rules so citizenship was discretionary whereas his younger brother was automatically British because he was born a year later.

The only issue in both nephews was demonstrating the facts. Easy with the younger one than the older one but both were issued with British passports!

In my dealings with the telephone 'helpline' I found the call centre staff almost worse than useless but again I was put through to the UK and spoke to a very knowledgable and experienced advisor. He really knew his stuff!

Whatever advice was given it is the law that governs who is British, who is not and who applies for discretionary citizenship.

 

[Baricello]

You are quite correct, my daughter is British by descent. The contention being, were the VFS and subsequently the ECO correct in accepting my daughter's visa application as a Thai Passport holder?
From the information I have received from the Immigration Officer in London, not the Call Centre I will add, both the VFS and ECO were right in accepting my daughter's visa application as a Thai citizen, in spite of my being a British national, as it is totally discretionary by the VFS and ECO, at the actual time of submission!
Thank you kindly for your input.

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[Baricello]

The issued grounds, as stated on the Notice of Refusal, confirms the application was accepted as valid!
This information given to me by the Immigration Officer in London!

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[brewsterbudgen]

The issued grounds, as stated on the Notice of Refusal, confirms the application was accepted as valid!
This information given to me by the Immigration Officer in London!

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I'm at a loss trying to understand the point you're labouring to make. Your daughter's UK visa was denied for all the reasons people have been trying to explain to you! If you had asked here first it would have saved you a lot of bother.

[Baricello]

Please don' be at loss, quite unpleasant!
No point is being laboured, I fully understand the Refusal, the reasons are clearly stated!
What you and others fail to understand, is that the application was made by a Thai national and accepted by both Thai and UK Immigration authorities as being valid and legitimate.
The application then being considered by a UK Immigration Adjudicating Officer, on the merits of the information supplied, including my British nationality.
At no time in either the application or refusal processes has there been any reference by the UK Immigration Office to my daughter's eligibility to a British passport!
Her "Refusal to a Thai
National" being based on "unsatisfactory support arrangements in the UK"
I think my point has adequately made!

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[theoldgit]

We're going round in circles here Baricello, nobody's being unpleasant, people are trying to help you but you seem to be determined to find somebody who will prove the guys on here wrong.

 

You mention that VFS accepted the application, VFS are no more than a mail drop, if you drop off an application they are bound to pass it on to the UKVI, they play no part in the decision making process and indeed can't decide which applications to pass on to the decision makers.

 

You say that the application was deemed valid by both the Thai and UK Immigration Teams, Thai Immigration played no part in the process, it's not in their jurisdiction and they would not have seen the application. The Entry Clearance Officer with the UKVI dealt with the application because it was placed in front of them, they deal with many applications a day and only have minutes to make a decision based on the evidence you've supplied.

 

On the evidence you supplied they concluded that the applicant had not provided sufficient evidence of adequate support arrangements, you seemed to think that decision was reasonable. If the ECO had delved further into the application, indeed if they'd had time to do so, they may have noticed that the child was entitled to British Citizenship, wouldn't have needed a visa and wouldn't have had to satisfy the decision maker of the adequate support arrangements. They didn't delve and nor was it necessary to do so, they took the application at face value.

 

May I suggest that you now draw a line under this and move on.

[Baricello]

You can term the VSF a maildrop , but they are the Official Thai Authority that deals with the application in the first instance!
You are intimating that by the ECO not delving into the application sufficiently, the relevant information was overlooked, and passed on to the decision maker by mistake, who took it at face value.
This is ridiculous, as it's the prime responsibility of both the ECO and UKVI to thoroughly check all applications as to their elegibility, regardless of volume of submissions!
The application was passed to the decision maker because having been checked as to the validity and status under which the
application was submitted, was a correct, as it was as is required of a Thai national!
The refusal decision would have been made on the information put in front of the decision maker, but he is still duty bound to check that the application is correct in all fields, before making the final decision as to "Unsatisfactory Support Arrangements"!
Hopefully now theoldgit we have completed all the circles, and we can indeed "Move On"

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[bobrussell]

We are going in circles but VFS is a glorified mail drop. It is a company subcontracted to collate and send on applications. I assume it is cheaper for a company to do so than employ embassy related staff.

The should not/must not provide advice on applications because they are not qualified to do so. Their purpose is to make sure documents that are listed on the application are present. The VFS website has a list of the jobs they are paid to do.

The ECO is likely to have looked at the application at face value but before refusal it should have been checked more thoroughly to see if the applicant is entitled to visit the UK on other grounds. Clearly they did not in this case.

Not surprising considering they have a few minutes to process each application.

You really should be jumping for joy because she is entitled to visit the UK freely once she has a UK passport!

[7by7]

5 hours ago, Baricello said:

You can term the VSF a maildrop , but they are the Official Thai Authority that deals with the application in the first instance!

No, they are not. They are nothing to do with any Thai Authority.

 

VFS is a commercial company used by many governments in many countries as handling agents for their visa applications; they are not an official department of any country and play no part in the actual decision making process at all.

 

VFS Global homepage.

 

As theoldgit rightly stated, the Thai MFA, immigration department nor any other Thai government department play no part in visa applications for the UK. Just as UKVI play no part in Thai visa applications. Visa applications are a matter for the immigration authorities of the country one is applying to, not those of the country where one resides and/or is a national of.

 

Yes, your daughter's application was refused for the reasons you have stated; but, again as theoldgit says, had VFS been aware that she is a British citizen they should have advised you not to submit the application but to get her a British passport instead. VFS didn't notice this and so forwarded the application to the ECOs as if she is a Thai citizen only.  

 

Had the ECO been aware that she is a British citizen then they should have immediately refused it on those grounds without considering the application itself. But they didn't notice this, so processed the application as if she is a Thai citizen only.

 

As already said, this is not unusual; ECOs very often don't notice that an applicant is, indeed, a dual British/other national and so process the application and, if the requirements are shown to be met, issue the visa anyway; but this is an error and strictly speaking illegal for the reasons given in the pinned topic I linked to earlier.

 

With respect; you have repeatedly shown that you are confused over various aspects of both British nationality and immigration law. Perfectly understandable; both can be very confusing to newcomers! I know I struggled to comprehend it all when I first became involved.

 

Which is why I asked for advice and learned from that advice; rather than attempting to prove those advising me wrong!

[Baricello]

I am indeed extremely pleased and grateful, that I learned through this thread, that my daughter is British by descent, and as such can obtain a UK passport.
What still confuses me, is that the inference is, from the posts here, that the application was incorrectly processed by failing to notice my nationality as British, thereby making the application invalid, which would have saved me a lot of time and inconvenience!
Since my last posting today, to satisfy myself, I have spoken again to the UK Immigration Officer in London to gain the official view on my situation.
After being acquainted with all the circumstances, he has informed me that in a child's application for a UK visa, the first thing that is checked is the nationality of both parents, and in this case, even with my being British, the ECO has made the decision to allow the application to proceed as that of a Thai passport holder, which he is completely at liberty to do!
Even though the application was refused, I am now happy in the knowledge that an avoidable mistake was not made in the acceptance and processing of the application by the Immigration Office!
I have already made application for my daughter's passport and re-applied for my wife's visa!

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[7by7]

2 minutes ago, Baricello said:

After being acquainted with all the circumstances, he has informed me that in a child's application for a UK visa, the first thing that is checked is the nationality of both parents,

Maybe the first thing which should be done; but it isn't always done as thoroughly as it should be! Remember that a British passport does not state whether the person is British by descent or British not by descent so will give no indication of the holder's child's status. The British parent's full birth certificate, at least, would be required for that; did you supply yours?

 

2 minutes ago, Baricello said:

and in this case, even with my being British, the ECO has made the decision to allow the application to proceed as that of a Thai passport holder, which he is completely at liberty to do!

Assuming you included a copy of your passport with the application (did you?) then the ECO would have known that you are British, but not that you are British not by descent and so had not established that your daughter, the applicant, is British. Maybe they should have made further enquiries of you before proceeding; but they didn't.

 

We all know cases of a British child being issued with a UK visit visa in their Thai passport. But if the ECO is fully aware that an applicant, whether a child or adult, is a dual British/other national then they should not proceed any further with the application.

 

In my opinion, based upon that of Tony M, an ex UKBA officer, in his pinned topic, that is the law. I have searched the ECGs, IDIs and Immigration Rules for confirmation, but as they are all extremely lengthy have not yet been able to find it.

[Baricello]

I supplied a copy of my birth certificate and passport!

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[bobrussell]

If you sent in a copy of the long birth certificate (even if you did not and sent in the short one) then I would enter a formal complaint that the ECO should have picked up that your daughter was a British citizen and the application terminated at that stage.

I would have thought VFS training should allow them to identify a potential British citizen but I doubt it is that comprehensive.

It would appear that the ECO failed to identify that she is British therefore I would try to get a refund on the application fee!

Doubtful if it would be granted but it might lead to a bit of further training.

Allowing the application to be processed is fair enough but they failed to pick up on the key fact that your daughter is already entitled to enter the UK freely!

[brewsterbudgen]

If you sent in a copy of the long birth certificate (even if you did not and sent in the short one) then I would enter a formal complaint that the ECO should have picked up that your daughter was a British citizen and the application terminated at that stage.
I would have thought VFS training should allow them to identify a potential British citizen but I doubt it is that comprehensive.
It would appear that the ECO failed to identify that she is British therefore I would try to get a refund on the application fee!
Doubtful if it would be granted but it might lead to a bit of further training.
Allowing the application to be processed is fair enough but they failed to pick up on the key fact that your daughter is already entitled to enter the UK freely!

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my colleague was applying for his Thai wife's and twins' UK visa and was told at the VFS office that he should only submit his wife's application and not the kids', as they should get UK passports.

[7by7]

 

34 minutes ago, Baricello said:

I supplied a copy of my birth certificate and passport!

Long form or short form?

[Baricello]

I have just spoken to a solicitor colleague of mine who has reviewed the UK Immigration Regulations and Legislation for me, and he is of the opinion that there is no law in existance that precludes the application of a dual British/Other National citizen for a UK visa.
However in these circumstances, whether the application is allowed to proceed, would be solely at the discretion of the ECO, depending on the merits of the case!g
I hope you will find this information useful for future reference.

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