Sturgeon says autumn 2018 would be 'common sense' date for independence referendum - BBC

[webfact]

Sturgeon says autumn 2018 would be 'common sense' date for independence referendum - BBC

REUTERS

 

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon attends the Brexit debate in the Scottish Parliament Edinburgh Scotland, Britain January 17, 2017. REUTERS/Russell Cheyne

 

(Reuters) - Autumn 2018 would be a "common sense" date for any second Scottish independence referendum, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said in an interview with the BBC.

 

Sturgeon said she would take things forward at "the pace that I think is right for the country" but no final decision had yet been made on holding such a vote. http://bbc.in/2mDTHFa

 

Sturgeon, elected leader in 2014 after an unsuccessful referendum to break away from the United Kingdom, has long said she will seek to give Scots a second vote if they are forced into a "hard Brexit" that would end their preferential access to the EU's single market and free movement of labour.

 

The "sheer intransigence" of the British government over Brexit could lead to a second Scottish independence referendum, the head of the devolved Scottish government had warned last month.

 

(Reporting by Subrat Patnaik in Bengaluru; Editing by Sunil Nair)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-03-09

[overherebc]

Just don't see Sturgeon and common sense going together.

[jonclark]

Nicola needs to have a very hard think if she is sure that having a hard border between England and Scotland is in  her countries best interests, as her Scottish MPs would after independence have no say in the construction of any border.  Additionally Scotland would not be an EU country after separation. It would be on its own - Like the rest of the UK.

 

The current EU countries have to unanimously agree to accept Scotland's application to join. Then the process of accession  in itself is not a short process taking a number of years. Albania for example has been carrying  pre-application application processes to join since 2004 and is still in the process of adopting all the EU laws into National Law. It was granted candidate status in 2014. And still isn't a full member

 

These points must be answered by Nicola and she better damn well have a plan to deal with the future if the EU rejects Scotland's application - The EU isn't going to grant a non-EU member free trade privileges, free movement etc. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by jonclark

[daveAustin]

Sshhh! Let em leave. One can only pray.

[RuamRudy]

23 minutes ago, jonclark said:

Nicola needs to have a very hard think if she is sure that having a hard border between England and Scotland is in  her countries best interests, as her Scottish MPs would after independence have no say in the construction of any border.  Additionally Scotland would not be an EU country after separation. It would be on its own - Like the rest of the UK.

 

The current EU countries have to unanimously agree to accept Scotland's application to join. Then the process of accession  in itself is not a short process taking a number of years. Albania for example has been carrying  pre-application application processes to join since 2004 and is still in the process of adopting all the EU laws into National Law. It was granted candidate status in 2014. And still isn't a full member

 

These points must be answered by Nicola and she better damn well have a plan to deal with the future if the EU rejects Scotland's application - The EU isn't going to grant a non-EU member free trade privileges, free movement etc. 

 

I wasn't sold on this 'back of the queue' story that was spun a few weeks ago. Any suggestion that Scotland would need to wait until the prior applicants were fully processed before it could be admitted to the EU is clearly incorrect.

 

As for Albania, I think the structural / corruption issues that continue to bedevil the country are a significant issue in their ongoing EU application. Scotland, on the other hand, is already in the EU, has EU laws enshrined in its own laws and has been a fully functioning member (albeit as part of a larger member) for years so the obstacles to overcome will be negligible in comparison.  

[BirdsandBooze]

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I wasn't sold on this 'back of the queue' story that was spun a few weeks ago. Any suggestion that Scotland would need to wait until the prior applicants were fully processed before it could be admitted to the EU is clearly incorrect.

 

As for Albania, I think the structural / corruption issues that continue to bedevil the country are a significant issue in their ongoing EU application. Scotland, on the other hand, is already in the EU, has EU laws enshrined in its own laws and has been a fully functioning member (albeit as part of a larger member) for years so the obstacles to overcome will be negligible in comparison.  

France,  Italy and Spain all have large, independence seeking separatist movements within their states, and not wishing to see them encouraged by an independent Scotland have said they will block any application by Scotland to join the EU. Those powerful voices within the EU won't even let Scotland join the queue.

[leither69]

Why would scotland want to join the EU after possible independence!! Its dying and so will scotland (from a scot)

[AhFarangJa]

She just will not give up on her crusade will she..........Can someone please clarify for me how someone wants independence from one alliance, only to join up to another.............

 

p.s. I have many Scots friends who think she is the worst thing that has happened to their country in a long long time.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, BirdsandBooze said:

France,  Italy and Spain all have large, independence seeking separatist movements within their states, and not wishing to see them encouraged by an independent Scotland have said they will block any application by Scotland to join the EU. Those powerful voices within the EU won't even let Scotland join the queue.

 

Here is the Spanish Foreign Minister confirming that Spain would not prevent Scotland joining the EU as long as Scotland exited the UK in a formal manner:

 

“The cases of Scotland and Catalonia are fundamentally different,” García-Margallo said, adding that Spain would not stand in the way of Scotland being admitted into the European Union. “If Scotland becomes independent in conformity with legal and institutional procedures, its request to form part of the EU can be considered. In the contrary case, it cannot.”

 

I would be very interested to see links to French or Italian politicians stating that they would prevent an independent Scotland joining the EU - can you please provide them?

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, AhFarangJa said:

She just will not give up on her crusade will she..........Can someone please clarify for me how someone wants independence from one alliance, only to join up to another.............

 

p.s. I have many Scots friends who think she is the worst thing that has happened to their country in a long long time.

Clearly many more Scots feel differently to your friends:

 

STV poll: Half of Scots would vote for independence

"Half of Scots would back independence if a fresh referendum was held tomorrow, a poll for STV News has found.

The survey, conducted by Ipsos MORI, shows a rise in support for independence as the Prime Minister prepares to trigger Britain's exit from the European Union later this month."

 

When the 2014 referendum campaigning kicked off in 2012, support for independence was around 25%. Now with the next referendum not even confirmed, the starting point is 50%. With the slow-motion car crash that is Brexit, and the utter shambles that is Labour virtually guaranteeing a Tory government in Westminster for another decade, I think more and more Scots are waking up to the fact that the real danger ahead is to remain in the UK and be dragged down with it.  

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, leither69 said:

Why would scotland want to join the EU after possible independence!! Its dying and so will scotland (from a scot)

 

Scotland needs to ask Westminster for permission to poll on leaving the UK. The UK did not need to ask Brussels to leave the EU. 

 

We are not an equal partner in the UK - the fact that we are forced to follow the disastrous Brexit route makes that clear. In the EU we will be an equal partner with equal rights and powers. 

[colinneil]

Sturgeon is still living in fantasy land, she thinks the only way she can be a somebody is if Scotland gains independence.

Give it up girl, go back to your knitting, your grannie needs a new shawl.

[overherebc]

20 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I wasn't sold on this 'back of the queue' story that was spun a few weeks ago. Any suggestion that Scotland would need to wait until the prior applicants were fully processed before it could be admitted to the EU is clearly incorrect.

 

As for Albania, I think the structural / corruption issues that continue to bedevil the country are a significant issue in their ongoing EU application. Scotland, on the other hand, is already in the EU, has EU laws enshrined in its own laws and has been a fully functioning member (albeit as part of a larger member) for years so the obstacles to overcome will be negligible in comparison.  

You can always live in hope. Most Europeans couldn't tell you where Scotland is. All the agreements you mention were with the UK government not with individual countries within the UK.

[jonclark]

27 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Scotland needs to ask Westminster for permission to poll on leaving the UK. The UK did not need to ask Brussels to leave the EU. 

 

We are not an equal partner in the UK - the fact that we are forced to follow the disastrous Brexit route makes that clear. In the EU we will be an equal partner with equal rights and powers. 

 

You are forced to follow??? You are part of the UK, all parts of the UK are following?? That is what a union is about we all go in the same direction - Are you also suggesting London, (which voted overwhelmingly (60%) to remain in the EU), should also leave the UK or be able to opt out of Brexit as London is being forced to follow the "disastrous Brexit" just like Scotland? 

 

Sturgeon would have wanted another independence referendum had the UK voted to remain. As no doubt remaining would have become not in Scotland's best interests. In fact she will want an independence referendum every time something happens that she doesn't like. She is like a petulant child. I would gladly let Scotland be cut loose - they can pick up their part of the EU contributions without the UKs help as no doubt the EU will be looking for other willing partners to make up the shortfall now their second biggest economy and one of their biggest financial contributors has left. 10 -15 years down the road from now the UK will be in a far stronger position than the EU. 

 

And we know how happy  Scots are to pick up the tab, when the drinks they are paying for weren't drunk by them!

 

[SpeakeasyThai]

Leave the UK and re-join the EU. Sounds like a smozzle and hypocritical when you think Sturgeon's party is called 'Scottish independent Party'. 

[baboon]

49 minutes ago, jonclark said:

 

Sturgeon would have wanted another independence referendum had the UK voted to remain. As no doubt remaining would have become not in Scotland's best interests. In fact she will want an independence referendum every time something happens that she doesn't like. She is like a petulant child. 

 

That sums it up for me. 'We're going to do this again and again until I get the answer I want'.

You could have actually written: 'In fact she will want an independence referendum every time something happens' and left it at that...

Edited March 10, 2017 by baboon

[robertson468]

She wants to leave the UK and join the EU.  Apart from the statement, I have not seen a manifesto stating how they would govern an independent Scotland under the EU.  The last First Minister (now resigned in disgrace for his failure to judge the situation) did not even have a currency to use as an interim between leaving the UK (sterling) and becoming a fully fledged member of the EU at which time they would be able to adopt the Euro, but that will take time!  They have also not said how they would manage the security of the Country and their People.  What intelligence services would they have, where are their armed forces and equipment coming from, where are they going to do their financial trading, how are they going to control their air space and vast oceans surrounding them and so on and so on?  The plan is not to help the Scots and Scotland, but is for the self aggrandizement of this very selfish young woman.  PS:  Written by a Scot.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, overherebc said:

You can always live in hope. Most Europeans couldn't tell you where Scotland is. All the agreements you mention were with the UK government not with individual countries within the UK.

 

Well, the latest polling certainly gives me hope. As for whether most Europeans have knowledge of Scotland, I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I could speak with authority on their knowledge of geography but all the many Europeans I have met and worked with over the years tend to know of Scotland, and look on it very favourably. 

 

I never mentioned any agreement. I explained that Scottish law is harmonized with European law - in fact, it is explicit in the Scotland Act 1998. As for going through Westminster, we have Scottish MEPs working in Brussels on a daily basis, and we have EU agencies working directly in Scotland. 

[jonclark]

46 minutes ago, robertson468 said:

She wants to leave the UK and join the EU.  Apart from the statement, I have not seen a manifesto stating how they would govern an independent Scotland under the EU.  The last First Minister (now resigned in disgrace for his failure to judge the situation) did not even have a currency to use as an interim between leaving the UK (sterling) and becoming a fully fledged member of the EU at which time they would be able to adopt the Euro, but that will take time!  They have also not said how they would manage the security of the Country and their People.  What intelligence services would they have, where are their armed forces and equipment coming from, where are they going to do their financial trading, how are they going to control their air space and vast oceans surrounding them and so on and so on?  The plan is not to help the Scots and Scotland, but is for the self aggrandizement of this very selfish young woman.  PS:  Written by a Scot.

 

No-one seems to explain (either English or Scots MPs) what will happen with regard to the land border. And for me this is the biggest fly in the ointment. The EU would need a secure land border with England and vice verse. An open border wouldn't work for the EU - otherwise England would be a perfect transit country for immigrants into Europe. And England would quite happily let them make their ways north and into Europe. 

 

For British families, local economies and Scotland's and England intertwined economy (tariffs, duties and passport control) would be very serious issue. 

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by jonclark

[AhFarangJa]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Scotland needs to ask Westminster for permission to poll on leaving the UK. The UK did not need to ask Brussels to leave the EU. 

 

We are not an equal partner in the UK - the fact that we are forced to follow the disastrous Brexit route makes that clear. In the EU we will be an equal partner with equal rights and powers. 

What makes you think Scotland would be treated differently to England in the EU. I am sorry but you must be delusional to think that the EU Bureaucrats will treat you as an equal. England certainly was not,....

equal rights and powers from Brussels..............You stand more of a chance trying to clean up the BIB......

[jonclark]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Well, the latest polling certainly gives me hope. As for whether most Europeans have knowledge of Scotland, I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I could speak with authority on their knowledge of geography but all the many Europeans I have met and worked with over the years tend to know of Scotland, and look on it very favourably. 

 

I never mentioned any agreement. I explained that Scottish law is harmonized with European law - in fact, it is explicit in the Scotland Act 1998. As for going through Westminster, we have Scottish MEPs working in Brussels on a daily basis, and we have EU agencies working directly in Scotland. 

But by the time Brexit takes effect, and the UK leaves europe.  EU law will have been unpicked from UK law and new UK wide legislation will have been passed to replace some / most  / all of it. 

 

So its not a simple harmonization issue. 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, jonclark said:

You are forced to follow??? You are part of the UK, all parts of the UK are following?? That is what a union is about we all go in the same direction - Are you also suggesting London, (which voted overwhelmingly (60%) to remain in the EU), should also leave the UK or be able to opt out of Brexit as London is being forced to follow the "disastrous Brexit" just like Scotland? 

 

London has never been a contiguous country with its own laws, religion, education systems etc. It is not a comparable to Scotland, which has had all these for centuries. The fact that you do not see a distinction between the regions of the UK is irrelevant. 

 

2 hours ago, jonclark said:

10 -15 years down the road from now the UK will be in a far stronger position than the EU. 

I genuinely hope that you are right, but all signs say different. However this thread is not about the folly of the brexiters. 

 

2 hours ago, jonclark said:

And we know how happy  Scots are to pick up the tab, when the drinks they are paying for weren't drunk by them!

 

You should educate yourself a bit more - maybe you would realise that the notion of Scots being scroungers is so far from the truth:

 

"In every single one of the last 30 years, the amount of tax revenues generated per person in Scotland was greater than for the UK as a whole."

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, jonclark said:

 

No-one seems to explain (either English or Scots MPs) what will happen with regard to the land border. And for me this is the biggest fly in the ointment. The EU would need a secure land border with England and vice verse. An open border wouldn't work for the EU - otherwise England would be a perfect transit country for immigrants into Europe. And England would quite happily let them make their ways north and into Europe. 

 

For British families, local economies and Scotland's and England intertwined economy (tariffs, duties and passport control) would be very serious issue. 

 

How does Europe secure its eastern borders now? I thought much of the justfication for Brexit was to prevent immigrants coming from Europe to the UK - now you are suggesting that the flow will be the other way?

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, jonclark said:

But by the time Brexit takes effect, and the UK leaves europe.  EU law will have been unpicked from UK law and new UK wide legislation will have been passed to replace some / most  / all of it. 

 

So its not a simple harmonization issue. 

Are you suggesting that the law in Scotland and the rest of the UK will be thrown out and re-written? If so, then there is some misunderstanding on your part.

 

The Scotland Act 1998 requires that all Scottish laws be harmonised with EU law. There would be no need to revise existing laws - all that would be needed would be for this requirement to be removed from the Scotland Act. That in itself is not going to be an easy matter - the Sewell convention states that Holyrood should have control of all aspects of Scottish laws, but it is highly unlikely that Holyrood will vote to make that change, forcing Westminster to take the initiative and to directly intervene. 

[RuamRudy]

19 minutes ago, AhFarangJa said:

What makes you think Scotland would be treated differently to England in the EU. I am sorry but you must be delusional to think that the EU Bureaucrats will treat you as an equal. England certainly was not,....

equal rights and powers from Brussels..............You stand more of a chance trying to clean up the BIB......

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, England is not in the EU - we are the United Kingdom, apparently.

[jonclark]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

How does Europe secure its eastern borders now? I thought much of the justfication for Brexit was to prevent immigrants coming from Europe to the UK - now you are suggesting that the flow will be the other way?

Well - look at it from a traffickers / migrants perspective. If you want to get into the EU and you have two countries that share an open border....Would you not seek to exploit that weakness??

[jonclark]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Are you suggesting that the law in Scotland and the rest of the UK will be thrown out and re-written? If so, then there is some misunderstanding on your part.

 

The Scotland Act 1998 requires that all Scottish laws be harmonised with EU law. There would be no need to revise existing laws - all that would be needed would be for this requirement to be removed from the Scotland Act. That in itself is not going to be an easy matter - the Sewell convention states that Holyrood should have control of all aspects of Scottish laws, but it is highly unlikely that Holyrood will vote to make that change, forcing Westminster to take the initiative and to directly intervene. 

So you are suggesting that after brexit and the unpicking of EU law in the UK - there will be two laws in effect throughout the British isles - EU law in Scotland and UK law in all other parts of the UK. That is not a practical reality for anyone in Britain 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, jonclark said:

Well - look at it from a traffickers / migrants perspective. If you want to get into the EU and you have two countries that share an open border....Would you not seek to exploit that weakness??

But the immigrants are already in the EU - I thought that was what all this brouhaha was all about, all those photos of The Jungle and boat loads of immigrants apparently making their way through Europe to the UK? 

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, jonclark said:

So you are suggesting that after brexit and the unpicking of EU law in the UK - there will be two laws in effect throughout the British isles - EU law in Scotland and UK law in all other parts of the UK. That is not a practical reality for anyone in Britain 

There is no such thing as UK law, never has been. There are three distinct and different sets of law in the UK - Scots, English and Northern Irish. 

 

"Scots law is the legal system of Scotland. It is a hybrid or mixed legal system containing civil law and common law elements, that traces its roots to a number of different historical sources.[1][2][3] Together with English law and Northern Ireland law, it is one of the three legal systems of the United Kingdom.[4] It shares some elements with the two other systems, but it also has its own unique sources, institutions and nomina juris."

Edited March 10, 2017 by RuamRudy

[AhFarangJa]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, England is not in the EU - we are the United Kingdom, apparently.

I stand corrected Sir...