Thai ..farang child owenership of land

[Harveyboy]

Hey guys can anyone give me an answer here im in the process of building a house with my thai wife ..we are expecting a child soon ...can a mixed race child qualify to own land the same as thai ie I want to put the house and the land in my childs name my wife is fine with this but can we as the child is part Farang tks  

[harrry]

Your child can own land.  The problem with it being in a childs name is it basically cannot be sold or borrowed on or otherwise alienated until he is 20 years old.  The courts can give pernission but it is pretty safe to say that they never will.  This even applies to University fees. I know someone who tried with a block of land bought for that purpose.

[offset]

On 10/03/2017 at 4:37 PM, harrry said:

Your child can own land.  The problem with it being in a childs name is it basically cannot be sold or borrowed on or otherwise alienated until he is 20 years old.  The courts can give pernission but it is pretty safe to say that they never will.  This even applies to University fees. I know someone who tried with a block of land bought for that purpose.

 

Not true with a good lawyer it can be done and i know this as a fact because it was done over my head she told the Court the land value was very low and they do not check it land was sold at a much higher value after buying it from the bank at the low rate

 

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:13 AM, offset said:

 

... they do not check it land was sold at a much higher value after buying it from the bank at the low rate

 

Don't understand that. It is impossible to give a responsibility to a child = a child can never have been the owner of anything that has loans

 

Why should a bank be involved if a child owns land?   

[offset]

The Children's court gives the land for sale to a bank to sell but at the price the mother says it is worth they do not come out to check it then the mother get somebody to buy the land at the said price and then on the same day they transfer the land to the mother who then takes a loan out on the land but what she did not tell the court there was a house on the land so she could take out a loan 10 times higher than she paid for the land

 

The money that the bank got for the land goes into the Children's Welfare to be given to the child for her education

 

[MikeyIdea]

That's perjury

Section 177 Whoever, giving a false evidence to the Court in the judicial proceedings, if such false evidence is an essential matter in the case, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding five years or fined not exceeding ten thousand Baht, or both - Not compoundable

 

Committing perjury is one of the easiest way to go to jail in Thailand. You will not have any problems getting a criminal conviction against the mother if you have evidence and it's not going to be a ten thousand baht penalty.

 

I have a friend who is in criminal court right now using section 177 and the judge has been tough on the mothers lawyer, we haven't seen the end of it yet but both lawyers involved are confident that it will stay tough

 

Then civil court to get it transferred back again, Thailand has the concept "bad faith" so court will not have any problems ordering the land transferred back again after a criminal conviction - Problem with that it can actually not be transferred if there is a debt but that is a different matter

 

You can get that back into the childs name again

[offset]

2 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

That's perjury

Section 177 Whoever, giving a false evidence to the Court in the judicial proceedings, if such false evidence is an essential matter in the case, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding five years or fined not exceeding ten thousand Baht, or both - Not compoundable

 

Committing perjury is one of the easiest way to go to jail in Thailand. You will not have any problems getting a criminal conviction against the mother if you have evidence and it's not going to be a ten thousand baht penalty.

 

I have a friend who is in criminal court right now using section 177 and the judge has been tough on the mothers lawyer, we haven't seen the end of it yet but both lawyers involved are confident that it will stay tough

 

Then civil court to get it transferred back again, Thailand has the concept "bad faith" so court will not have any problems ordering the land transferred back again - Problem with that it can actually not be transferred if there is a debt though

 

You can get that back into the childs name again

yes I understand all that I even got as far as the court but I not wanted to put my son's mother in prison and the other fact was that I would of had to put about 130000 baht into the civil court with I would of lost if the verdict went against me so the total cost would have been more than 250000 baht so I decided against taking it any further

[MikeyIdea]

I like that you decided to not act against the mother

 

You'd start with a criminal case in Thailand, the judge will not put the mother in jail if you ask him not to, still have to go to civil court for the order to transfer done and you'd still have to pay the debt so that the land can be transferred back to the child... Too much paying out

 

Good decision :)

 

[MikeyIdea]

15 hours ago, offset said:

I would of had to put about 130000 baht into the civil court with I would of lost if the verdict went against me so the total cost would have been more than 250000 baht so I decided against taking it any further

Losing 130,000: The "go to criminal first" path is weird but that's why they do it I suppose. Just sue for perjury or whatever simple paragraph that matches to get a conviction (without risk of losing any money) and then go to civil (no risk of losing money any longer). No way there will be a jail sentence if father ask for lenience

 

[offset]

20 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

Losing 130,000: The "go to criminal first" path is weird but that's why they do it I suppose. Just sue for perjury or whatever simple paragraph that matches to get a conviction (without risk of losing any money) and then go to civil (no risk of losing money any longer). No way there will be a jail sentence if father ask for lenience

 

There was a little more to this than I told you I was only explaining to you how to get the land changed back

 

The other thing the mother did was lie to the Police about losing the land papers (because I had them and she could not find them) and then also to the Land office so I was not sure how a judge would deal with that

[MikeyIdea]

4 minutes ago, offset said:

There was a little more to this than I told you I was only explaining to you how to get the land changed back

 

The other thing the mother did was lie to the Police about losing the land papers (because I had them and she could not find them) and then also to the Land office so I was not sure how a judge would deal with that

It is the same in my friends case, there's more, and more... 

 

I think it is good that the Thailand court system is different. The criminal court judge in my friends case openly asked what he wanted and took note when he said that he didn't want his daughters mother in jail.

 

There are many ways in Thailand and also a criminal court judge will help justice the humane way (and victim centric). The Thai system has high max penalties but low min penalties. Still no jail if the father doesn't want the mother in jail for your case

[Destiny1990]

On 3/17/2017 at 8:45 AM, offset said:

There was a little more to this than I told you I was only explaining to you how to get the land changed back

 

The other thing the mother did was lie to the Police about losing the land papers (because I had them and she could not find them) and then also to the Land office so I was not sure how a judge would deal with that

Sounds like a great relationship 

[catman20]

1 hour ago, Destiny1990 said:

Sounds like a great relationship 

what ever happened to keeping life simple

[cardinalblue]

Wow did this thread get off topic..why can't you guys answer a simple question so I will try...

 

a thai mix child can own land or a house and be in their name...

 

up to the age of 20, in order to sell it, there must be a guardian for that child - usually a family adult member and that member must take it to court and the court will oversee the sale so the child is not cheated out of their property value...

 

what i don't know is how much control the court has once the sale becomes liquid assets in the name of the child. Can the guardian cheat the child out of those funds w/o a third party watching out for the child's interests? In theory, that is what a guardian should do but reality they need to be monitored for integrity and honesty...

[cyberfarang]

On 10/03/2017 at 4:37 PM, harrry said:

Your child can own land.  The problem with it being in a childs name is it basically cannot be sold or borrowed on or otherwise alienated until he is 20 years old.  The courts can give pernission but it is pretty safe to say that they never will.  This even applies to University fees. I know someone who tried with a block of land bought for that purpose.

Not correct.

 

Here`s the deal:

 

Thai wife purchases land WITH HER OWN MONEY,  Child must have Thai nationality or duel nationality is OK. Land and house goes in Thai wife`s name. After 6 weeks wife visits land office and places house and land in child`s name as a trust.

 

Child has full rights over house and land at 20 years old. Before child is 20 years old Thai wife can take out loans on the property or sell the property and still has jurisdiction over it until the child is 20. The only protection this method gives a Farlang husband is that if the Thai wife dies her family cannot make claims to the property and kick the Farlang husband out. This is not a loophole in the law that safeguards the Farlang husband in cases of divorce or a cheating spouse. If the property has not been bought legitimately, meaning with Thai wife`s money and the wife dies, her family can still take the case to court and the court has powers to place it under auction and split the proceeds of the estate as it feels fit.

[harrry]

Quote

May a Thai minor child of a foreign national own land?

Answer:

A Thai minor born from a foreign parent can acquire land providing that the land acquisition is not done for the purpose to circumvent or evade the law. If a person wishes to give a piece of land to a Thai foreign-born minor as a gift then the authority shall inquire into his/her intention to give the gift to the minor and into his/her legal relations with the minor. If the property to be given as a gift is acquired by purchasing, it must be determined out of whose money the acquisition is made.

To transfer a land to a minor child has several drawbacks. The main drawback is that the power of the child parents to use the land will be severely restricted. Pursuant to Section 1574 of the TCCC, a person exercising parental power: “Cannot enter into any of the following juristic acts with regard to the immovable property of the minor, except with the permission of the Court.”

Acts that cannot be done without the Court permission are: selling, exchanging, selling with right of redemption, letting out property on hire purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on mortgage able movable property. Extinguishing the whole or a part of real rights of the minor on immovable property. Creating servitude, right of inhabitation, right of superficies, usufruct or any charges on immovable property; disposing of the whole or a part of the claim the purpose of which is to create real rights on immovable property or on mortgage able property, or the claim of which the purpose is to have a real right on such property of the minor relieved; and letting immovable property for more than 3 years.Source: www.COMPANYVAUBAN.com

http://www.companyvauban.com/en/guide/legal/faq.html

Trusts are illegal in thailand.

[offset]

9 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

Not correct.

 

Here`s the deal:

 

Thai wife purchases land WITH HER OWN MONEY,  Child must have Thai nationality or duel nationality is OK. Land and house goes in Thai wife`s name. After 6 weeks wife visits land office and places house and land in child`s name as a trust.

 

Child has full rights over house and land at 20 years old. Before child is 20 years old Thai wife can take out loans on the property or sell the property and still has jurisdiction over it until the child is 20. The only protection this method gives a Farlang husband is that if the Thai wife dies her family cannot make claims to the property and kick the Farlang husband out. This is not a loophole in the law that safeguards the Farlang husband in cases of divorce or a cheating spouse. If the property has not been bought legitimately, meaning with Thai wife`s money and the wife dies, her family can still take the case to court and the court has powers to place it under auction and split the proceeds of the estate as it feels fit.

Incorrect

 

Any land put in a child's name is owned only by the child the mother has no rights over the land, her name or the name of the father is registered with the land office no legal loans can be taken using the land as security the land cannot be sold with the Children Court agreeing to the sale all money from the sale is put in the Government bank under the control of the Children's Welfare department and any money take out of the child's account must be for the use of the child and a receipt to say that will need to be supplied

[offset]

15 hours ago, cardinalblue said:

Wow did this thread get off topic..why can't you guys answer a simple question so I will try...

 

a thai mix child can own land or a house and be in their name...

 

up to the age of 20, in order to sell it, there must be a guardian for that child - usually a family adult member and that member must take it to court and the court will oversee the sale so the child is not cheated out of their property value...

 

what i don't know is how much control the court has once the sale becomes liquid assets in the name of the child. Can the guardian cheat the child out of those funds w/o a third party watching out for the child's interests? In theory, that is what a guardian should do but reality they need to be monitored for integrity and honesty...

 

The money is under the control of the Children's Welfare Department no money can be taken by the guardian of the child without their say so

[MikeyIdea]

10 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

Not correct.

 

Here`s the deal:

 

Thai wife purchases land WITH HER OWN MONEY,  Child must have Thai nationality or duel nationality is OK. Land and house goes in Thai wife`s name. After 6 weeks wife visits land office and places house and land in child`s name as a trust.

 

Child has full rights over house and land at 20 years old. Before child is 20 years old Thai wife can take out loans on the property or sell the property and still has jurisdiction over it until the child is 20. The only protection this method gives a Farlang husband is that if the Thai wife dies her family cannot make claims to the property and kick the Farlang husband out. This is not a loophole in the law that safeguards the Farlang husband in cases of divorce or a cheating spouse. If the property has not been bought legitimately, meaning with Thai wife`s money and the wife dies, her family can still take the case to court and the court has powers to place it under auction and split the proceeds of the estate as it feels fit.

 

Not correct. As Larry says, trusts are illegal

And: I bought land for my half Thai minor daughter with my money and put it in her name at the Huaykwang land office. I would probably not have been able to do it without the mother but I ensured that my name was on top of all the papers, then the mothers' and last my daughters thumb print in ink. It can be done. Wife or mother means nothing when gifting to child

 

There are land offices that disregard the fact that Thai nationals regardless of age have the right to own land in their own country and refuse to make the transfer. It should work to take the case to Juvenile court to get a court order on that mother and father gift the land to their Thai national daughter for her benefit (reason important to state) Bring the regulation that the land office use to refuse the transfer to court so that the judges can word the court order accordingly. The judges will be happy to help the child, and amused :) - A simple case like that, half a day's work and 25,000 should do up-country.

 

That serves 2 purposes:

1)  Thai layers say differently but I don't think a land office will refuse after they have a court order that land should be transferred to a Thai national minor for the childs' benefit

2) If the transfer still can't be done: If the mother sells the land then the father will get a criminal conviction of the mother. Then on to civil court. Thai law has the "good / bad faith" concept. Civil court will have no problems ordering the land transferred back to the child (as long as new owner cannot prove good faith)

 

Mikey   

[jimster]

Funny question asked by the OP. Of course any Thai citizen, irrespective of "race" can own land. There would be an uproar otherwise, imagine if Indian Sikhs holding Thai nationality were barred from land ownership all because they don't look "Thai enough". Never heard of land ownership in any country being related to one's ethnicity or physical appearance, only citizenship and residency.

[MikeyIdea]

13 hours ago, jimster said:

Funny question asked by the OP. Of course any Thai citizen, irrespective of "race" can own land. There would be an uproar otherwise, imagine if Indian Sikhs holding Thai nationality were barred from land ownership all because they don't look "Thai enough". Never heard of land ownership in any country being related to one's ethnicity or physical appearance, only citizenship and residency.

There are a few land offices in Thailand that do refuse to transfer land to underage Thai citizens if they have a western father, I have heard this happen several times in Hua Hin and once in Chieng Mai. The land office gives the reason that they have the right to refuse based on that the land falls under the control of a foreigner until the child reach majority as the legal guardian is non-Thai. One land office demanded that the parents divorced and father signed over sole custody to the mother before transferring

 

It will not stand up in court of course :)

[jimster]

13 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

There are a few land offices in Thailand that do refuse to transfer land to underage Thai citizens if they have a western father, I have heard this happen several times in Hua Hin and once in Chieng Mai. The land office gives the reason that they have the right to refuse based on that the land falls under the control of a foreigner until the child reach majority as the legal guardian is non-Thai. One land office demanded that the parents divorced and father signed over sole custody to the mother before transferring

 

It will not stand up in court of course :)

Well they should sue for racial discrimination then. Although I presume your example refers to situations where the father is no longer married to the Thai mother.

 

Same thing if a Thai Sikh were denied land ownership for not looking Thai enough. I wonder if this happens too.

[MikeyIdea]

18 hours ago, jimster said:

Well they should sue for racial discrimination then. Although I presume your example refers to situations where the father is no longer married to the Thai mother.

 

Same thing if a Thai Sikh were denied land ownership for not looking Thai enough. I wonder if this happens too.

There is a logic to this: The land offices have had the directive to keep an eye on that control over Thai land stays in Thai hands for a long time, that is the directive that a few land offices even push so far that they don't allow land to be transferred to underage Thai citizens if one of the parents (well, the father) is foreign even

 

A foreign legal guardian control the childs land until that child reaches majority

[blackcab]

On 3/21/2017 at 10:23 PM, cyberfarang said:

Not correct.

 

Here`s the deal:

 

Thai wife purchases land WITH HER OWN MONEY,  Child must have Thai nationality or duel nationality is OK. Land and house goes in Thai wife`s name. After 6 weeks wife visits land office and places house and land in child`s name as a trust.

 

Child has full rights over house and land at 20 years old. Before child is 20 years old Thai wife can take out loans on the property or sell the property and still has jurisdiction over it until the child is 20. The only protection this method gives a Farlang husband is that if the Thai wife dies her family cannot make claims to the property and kick the Farlang husband out. This is not a loophole in the law that safeguards the Farlang husband in cases of divorce or a cheating spouse. If the property has not been bought legitimately, meaning with Thai wife`s money and the wife dies, her family can still take the case to court and the court has powers to place it under auction and split the proceeds of the estate as it feels fit.

 

You are wrong. I have no idea where you got your information from, but it is incorrect.

 

If you do not know the facts about the laws surrounding land ownership please do not spread false information.

[Guest StephenB]

Do you guys know of a good lawyer for upcountry to accomplish this? Wife just called land office, and told its 20 years of age until can transfer. Would like to get land transfered from wifes name to kids name this month. Ages 10-14

[MikeyIdea]

20 hours ago, StephenB said:

Do you guys know of a good lawyer for upcountry to accomplish this? Wife just called land office, and told its 20 years of age until can transfer. Would like to get land transfered from wifes name to kids name this month. Ages 10-14

Never call, they will of course just answer something that makes it impossible to transfer to protect themselves, mainly because they don't want the risk and the trouble but also much because so many westerners question their right to request the properly certified documents they need to ensure they protect themselves... Go there and talk to the supervisor and you are likely to get a different answer, unless Hua Hin, Chiang Mai. Bring a good lawyer or HappyLarry's wife, she's good, and the chance increases

 

If they still refuse, just go to Juvenile and make a mutual agreement to give the land to the children, that makes it a court order on that land should be transferred to the children (within a certain date is important), difficult for the land office to refuse. If they still refuse, just go back to court and enforce court order and hand over to gromm bangkapp kadi, "department" of court order enforcement and they will get it transferred. Easy to get them to act when it comes to assets, it's just polite to help with expenses and a bit more. Court case like that are easy and cheap, mutual agreement for only that should be no more than 20,000, or less probably. A friend in Trad did something similar for less than 10,000. Not a lawyer of the same caliber as the one HappyLarry's wife works with for that money obvoiusly

 

Lawyer: Most difficult thing there is, finding a lawyer who can be trusted, one that prepares information beforehand and thereby is prepared to challenge the right to refuse. The lawyer that HappyLarry's wife works with is clearly good and bold when the need is there but he normally works with juvenile cases, they're in Korat by the way.  

 

Michael

[Preacher]

21 hours ago, StephenB said:

Do you guys know of a good lawyer for upcountry to accomplish this? Wife just called land office, and told its 20 years of age until can transfer. Would like to get land transfered from wifes name to kids name this month. Ages 10-14

If the land can be transferred depends on if the land is debt free. If there is a loan out against the land it can not be done as that would mean you would give a debt to a child. 

[Guest StephenB]

2 hours ago, Preacher said:

If the land can be transferred depends on if the land is debt free. If there is a loan out against the land it can not be done as that would mean you would give a debt to a child. 

No loans, no debt.

[Preacher]

Then there is no reason to refuse.

 

You can ask them again and if they refuse again to put their refusal it in writing, stating the reason for the refusal. Normally they will reconsider their position. They will not want to make mistakes and be hold accountable.