Thailand Eyes UN Human Rights Council Seat with Optimism

[Grubster]

21 hours ago, Traveler19491 said:

While your willingness to sacrifice personally is admirable, I'm afraid it isn't shared by our fellow citizens. And that's not counting the fact that our citizens just plain can't afford such increases in prices. The problem is that increasing wages would have a lagging effect. Wages have been falling (in real dollars when inflation is taken into account) for the last several decades (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/), and your hypothetical 20% increase in prices would likely be more than enough to send many into poverty. I wouldn't count on the generosity of employers to provide "massive raises" to their workforce when that would dig deeply into profits and significantly erode their performance based bonuses. Add in the fact that retailers would likely take into account the upward movement of wages and would increase prices accordingly. The increase in wages from your "good gainful employment for 'our' people" would have to be very significant in order to have a positive effect on the current financial condition of the middle and working classes.

Well I'll say this,  there is a lot more wealth per capita in the US today, taking into account inflation than there was in the fifties and sixties. If you think it is ok that most of this is at the top five percent of the population, and that its ok that the bottom line on wall street is all that matters anymore, than you are way, way off my line of thinking. I don't know what you do for a living or if you are retired but in either case you are going backwards too, most likely.

    I remember some friends who made the big bucks doing software 40 years ago, They were all for Reaganomics, breaking unions, giving jobs to illegal Mexicans, etc.  Now a software guy makes about the same as my friends 40 years back, essentially losing half of the wage. They never thought it would effect them.

    The beauty of raising wages for the working class is that what they make they will put back into the economy, starting a snowball effect for the good.

     I also don't like the fact that China and others are dumping pollution at their plants at 1950 rates in the US, Our workers have a work ethic as good as any in the world. Yeah I know, your gonna say they won't do it for $8 an hour like you want.  

[Dumbastheycome]

22 hours ago, sirineou said:

Not only our unborn, which is reprehensible in it's self, but the whole world should be worried about the impending train wreck, because when this military juggernaut derails   the ensuing  train wreck will  not only hurt the ones on the train.

Math Problem: Train traveling at 60 miles per hour, broken bridge over the ravine 60 miles away, How long until the train falls in the ravine,?Should those at the bottom of the revive move?  and should the passengers in first class order margaritas?

I  note  a thread which asks the  question " why do  Thais  not obey the rules ? " Maybe they have  an inherent conception of  total  firkin  chaos which explains  the fatalistic attitude?

[Grubster]

20 hours ago, vaultdweller0013 said:

Here's part of the problem. The US worker might cost $15-30/hour while the Mexican is $4-5/hour. So were not talking 10%-20% labor markup; we're talking 300% to 600%

 

Now, if labor is not a big piece of the overall cost, it could result in a 20% price difference, but in that case, almost by definition, we aren't going to see huge numbers of jobs coming back.

Well it wasn't your grandfathers fault that many other countries lagged so far behind, and I bet he would be sick to know that we have abandoned the workforce that got us where we are. Greed is rampant now, and I guess there is no stopping it, especially since many of the workers in the US don't even know how bad they are being screwed.

[ilostmypassword]

10 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Well it wasn't your grandfathers fault that many other countries lagged so far behind, and I bet he would be sick to know that we have abandoned the workforce that got us where we are. Greed is rampant now, and I guess there is no stopping it, especially since many of the workers in the US don't even know how bad they are being screwed.

Well, we could raise the minimum wage. On the basis of worker productivity, not inflation, if the minimum wage were to keep pace with that productivity right now it should be about $21 per hour.

Donald Trump doesn't want to raise the minimum wage. He just promises great jobs for everybody.  Just like he promised great health insurance for everybody.

[Dumbastheycome]

3 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Well I'll say this,  there is a lot more wealth per capita in the US today, taking into account inflation than there was in the fifties and sixties. If you think it is ok that most of this is at the top five percent of the population, and that its ok that the bottom line on wall street is all that matters anymore, than you are way, way off my line of thinking. I don't know what you do for a living or if you are retired but in either case you are going backwards too, most likely.

    I remember some friends who made the big bucks doing software 40 years ago, They were all for Reaganomics, breaking unions, giving jobs to illegal Mexicans, etc.  Now a software guy makes about the same as my friends 40 years back, essentially losing half of the wage. They never thought it would effect them.

    The beauty of raising wages for the working class is that what they make they will put back into the economy, starting a snowball effect for the good.

     I also don't like the fact that China and others are dumping pollution at their plants at 1950 rates in the US, Our workers have a work ethic as good as any in the world. Yeah I know, your gonna say they won't do it for $8 an hour like you want.  

And therein is  the fundamental problem.  Corporatism is as  stifling  and controlling as  communism in end effect. There  is  no  balance in the system. Power  controls. Excessive  wealth provides the  same power advantages as  does  any instituted political system even under the  guise  of democracy.

China  has  risen on the  back of  corporate greed while  at the same  time adopting the same principles as  a concession for  same greed.

The  Democratic Republic  of China is  now  no  more  or no less  democratic as  the Western world in reality. 

The dream of egality is  just that.  Power is  bought and paid for. And  regardless of  rhetoric as to  that which is  good for  all it  will always depend  on what is  better  for the  retainment of  power  under  any  current system.

 

[Grubster]

2 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

And therein is  the fundamental problem.  Corporatism is as  stifling  and controlling as  communism in end effect. There  is  no  balance in the system. Power  controls. Excessive  wealth provides the  same power advantages as  does  any instituted political system even under the  guise  of democracy.

China  has  risen on the  back of  corporate greed while  at the same  time adopting the same principles as  a concession for  same greed.

The  Democratic Republic  of China is  now  no  more  or no less  democratic as  the Western world in reality. 

The dream of egality is  just that.  Power is  bought and paid for. And  regardless of  rhetoric as to  that which is  good for  all it  will always depend  on what is  better  for the  retainment of  power  under  any  current system.

 

Yes I agree, No form of government has ever passed the test of time and Capitalism is starting to fail miserably,  I don't think China has much democracy of any kind though. They don't claim to either.

[joecoolfrog]

23 hours ago, Grubster said:

Yeah and it was really stupid when Henry Ford gave massive raises to all his employees so they could afford to buy the cars they were making. Oh I forgot now most US companies would rather send the work overseas. I would gladly pay twenty percent more for US made products, if it means good gainful employment for "our" people.

But most people wont , thats the point , nothing to stop you all using local craft stores and boycotting the likes of Walmart.

[Grubster]

7 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

But most people wont , thats the point , nothing to stop you all using local craft stores and boycotting the likes of Walmart.

Yes blame it on the people not the government or big business, thats the ticket. I wonder why I can't buy foreign drugs? HUH funny how things work isn't it.

[joecoolfrog]

2 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Yes blame it on the people not the government or big business, thats the ticket. I wonder why I can't buy foreign drugs? HUH funny how things work isn't it.

In a democracy people get the government they deserve , ergo the current Trump administration. Is it his fault for lying , or the voters fault for believing him ?

[Dumbastheycome]

22 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Yes I agree, No form of government has ever passed the test of time and Capitalism is starting to fail miserably,  I don't think China has much democracy of any kind though. They don't claim to either.

I  am  not sure about capitalism versus  Corporatism. It is  the  advent  of  Corporate  legislation that has  screwed  the free  enterprise base. Corporate  legislation  has  enable  the  stifling  of commercial free  enterprise via  franchised  protectionism.

I would prefer  that  competative Open Commercialism be the  standard. 

[Grubster]

23 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

In a democracy people get the government they deserve , ergo the current Trump administration. Is it his fault for lying , or the voters fault for believing him ?

In case you haven't noticed, the common people have been in steady decline, no matter who they elect into our corporate driven society. Do you really think Hillary was going to turn things around? We the people have no choice aside from revolt.

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

Yeah I know, your gonna say they won't do it for $8 an hour like you want.  

And with that final sentence ends your entire argument and Trumps promise. Every company in the world shares the same mission statement despite what they may say and print. The mission statement is "the purpose of this company is to make money for shareholders". That is the simplicity of the situation that cannot be ignored. NO company will pay 20USD per hour labour costs when they can pay 8USD. No consumer will pay 10 USD for a product when they can pay 6-7 USD (despite your noble intentions of saying you would pay 20% more for US made products, that is just pure BS).

 

So you argued yourself out of position with your final statement, as it is completely true and is the downfall of any of Trumps plans to return jobs. I am sure he spends his time at the moment looking for the excuse he will use to blame someone else for the inevitable failure of the "bring manufacturing back to the US policy" he sold to the poor and desperate. It's even more unbelievable that people with a modicum of intelligence and education fell for his blatant lies.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

I  am  not sure about capitalism versus  Corporatism. It is  the  advent  of  Corporate  legislation that has  screwed  the free  enterprise base. Corporate  legislation  has  enable  the  stifling  of commercial free  enterprise via  franchised  protectionism.

I would prefer  that  competative Open Commercialism be the  standard. 

Keep in mind that we have had a very right wing supreme court that has extended the rights of personhood to corporations further than ever before.  Now a corporation can have religious beliefs and be allowed to give unlimited political donations.  And Neil Gorsuch is an absolutely abysmal example of this. Thank you, Donald Trump.

[Prbkk]

One wonders if Mr Trump has considered the other side of the trade coin: so many American companies engage if differential pricing ( Apple the most notorious offender in that regard) and dodgy tax affairs ( Starbucks a case in point) but are more than happy to take advantage of tariff free entry to many markets. 

It's hard to imagine that others are going to sit back and continue to offer the same concessions in the context of this sabre-rattling...unless of course it's all bluff and bluster and nothing happens, probably the most likely outcome.

[Grubster]

9 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

And with that final sentence ends your entire argument and Trumps promise. Every company in the world shares the same mission statement despite what they may say and print. The mission statement is "the purpose of this company is to make money for shareholders". That is the simplicity of the situation that cannot be ignored. NO company will pay 20USD per hour labour costs when they can pay 8USD. No consumer will pay 10 USD for a product when they can pay 6-7 USD (despite your noble intentions of saying you would pay 20% more for US made products, that is just pure BS).

 

So you argued yourself out of position with your final statement, as it is completely true and is the downfall of any of Trumps plans to return jobs. I am sure he spends his time at the moment looking for the excuse he will use to blame someone else for the inevitable failure of the "bring manufacturing back to the US policy" he sold to the poor and desperate. It's even more unbelievable that people with a modicum of intelligence and education fell for his blatant lies.

Sounds like you are for unequal trade, and don't mind buying goods made with high pollution, slave wages, no safety standards. Your choice, but don't tell me I always follow the price, you don't know me.  BS is something said and not known, you fit that well. bye bye.

[joecoolfrog]

15 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Sounds like you are for unequal trade, and don't mind buying goods made with high pollution, slave wages, no safety standards. Your choice, but don't tell me I always follow the price, you don't know me.  BS is something said and not known, you fit that well. bye bye.

Trump would settle for those conditions any day of the week , cheap is all he understands , his supporters apparently concur.

[Andaman Al]

13 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Sounds like you are for unequal trade, and don't mind buying goods made with high pollution, slave wages, no safety standards. Your choice, but don't tell me I always follow the price, you don't know me.  BS is something said and not known, you fit that well. bye bye.

Back to the bye bye routine, it is becoming tedious. Just don't answer.

 

I never said I am for any such thing as unequal trade, slave labour etc etc, where did I say that? Are you a graduate from Trump University?  I am saying that Trump and people like you are spouting unrealistic BS if you think that Trump or anyone else will bring manufacturing back to the US. Has he cancelled the contract on Trump ties and Ivanka's shoes and clothing line yet?  Are all those products now being made in the USA yet? You are all gullible beyond belief. If you don't follow the price then you display idiotic behaviours. So if you see a TV in a shop for 2000 USD and see the identical one next to it for 1400 USD which one will you buy? The one at 2000 because it is made by higher cost labour in the USA? As I said, BS.

 

Quote

BS is something said and not known, you fit that well.

you do realise how stupid that line is don't you? Was that one of George W's?

[Dumbastheycome]

30 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Keep in mind that we have had a very right wing supreme court that has extended the rights of personhood to corporations further than ever before.  Now a corporation can have religious beliefs and be allowed to give unlimited political donations.  And Neil Gorsuch is an absolutely abysmal example of this. Thank you, Donald Trump.

Which  confirms  that  Corporates  are  now  the primary  entity and  people  are  the   cogs in the  wheel only. Tax  breaks, preferential legislations  for  multinational interests  against the   national public interest  but  justified  by  quoting national interests..

Sadly  and  sickeningly  people continue  to  believe they have the  protection  of   democratic rights  and  choice without realizing that they are deliberately  being  shepherded into one  end or the  other  of  the  same field to  eat  weeds instead  of  grass !  

[Traveler19491]

11 hours ago, Grubster said:

Well I'll say this,  there is a lot more wealth per capita in the US today, taking into account inflation than there was in the fifties and sixties. If you think it is ok that most of this is at the top five percent of the population, and that its ok that the bottom line on wall street is all that matters anymore, than you are way, way off my line of thinking. I don't know what you do for a living or if you are retired but in either case you are going backwards too, most likely.

    I remember some friends who made the big bucks doing software 40 years ago, They were all for Reaganomics, breaking unions, giving jobs to illegal Mexicans, etc.  Now a software guy makes about the same as my friends 40 years back, essentially losing half of the wage. They never thought it would effect them.

    The beauty of raising wages for the working class is that what they make they will put back into the economy, starting a snowball effect for the good.

     I also don't like the fact that China and others are dumping pollution at their plants at 1950 rates in the US, Our workers have a work ethic as good as any in the world. Yeah I know, your gonna say they won't do it for $8 an hour like you want.  

 

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. The problem is that we allowed our politicians to dump "Reaganomics" on us, for some reason the majority of voters buying the idiotic notion that shoveling money at the wealthy would somehow wind up in the pockets of the middle and working classes. What's needed, in my opinion, is a return to the economic policies of Eisenhower, when the rich were subject to a maximum personal tax bracket of 91% on taxable income above $400,000 and corporations were taxed at 50% on profits above $25,000. That had the effect of corporations and the wealthy reinvesting in their businesses and paying their workers a liveable wage. We didn't see the wealthy or businesses leaving the country. On the contrary, business grew exponentially. Those policies also happened to coincide with the explosion of the middle class, the building of the interstate highway system, the beginning of the space program, the development of the best education system in the world, and the growth of the strongest economy the world had ever seen to that point. I have no problem with people getting rich. The opportunity to succeed is what motivates people to take a chance with their money and start or expand a business. What I have a problem with is greed, and greed is what is driving today's business (and political) practices.

[Langsuan Man]

35 minutes ago, Traveler19491 said:

What I have a problem with is greed, and greed is what is driving today's business (and political) practices.

Actually the problem is that the American consumers worships at the altar of CHEAP

 

I used to live in a Southwest Virginia town that had 5 furniture factories but by the time I moved 4 had closed down and the 5th was down to one shift per day

 

Yet every Friday night the Walmart parking lot was full and these people couldn't understand why they didn't have jobs !

 

[stevenl]

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. The problem is that we allowed our politicians to dump "Reaganomics" on us, for some reason the majority of voters buying the idiotic notion that shoveling money at the wealthy would somehow wind up in the pockets of the middle and working classes. What's needed, in my opinion, is a return to the economic policies of Eisenhower, when the rich were subject to a maximum personal tax bracket of 91% on taxable income above $400,000 and corporations were taxed at 50% on profits above $25,000. That had the effect of corporations and the wealthy reinvesting in their businesses and paying their workers a liveable wage. We didn't see the wealthy or businesses leaving the country. On the contrary, business grew exponentially. Those policies also happened to coincide with the explosion of the middle class, the building of the interstate highway system, the beginning of the space program, the development of the best education system in the world, and the growth of the strongest economy the world had ever seen to that point. I have no problem with people getting rich. The opportunity to succeed is what motivates people to take a chance with their money and start or expand a business. What I have a problem with is greed, and greed is what is driving today's business (and political) practices.

The world has changed, companies would leave USA now under those conditions.
Agreed, greed is all important, both business and personal.

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[Traveler19491]

11 hours ago, stevenl said:

The world has changed, companies would leave USA now under those conditions.
Agreed, greed is all important, both business and personal.

sent using Tapatalk
 

 

I agree with you in that regard, however, when conservatives try to tell the public that cutting taxes will stimulate growth and create jobs...sorry, pure BS. We've been trying that for the last nearly 40 years and what do we have to show for it? Income and wealth disparity that is now threatening to destroy the American economy. "Trickle down" coupled with neverending war are to blame for our unimaginable national debt. The government has got to have a major increase in revenue and it is past time for both corporations and the wealthy to start ponying up. When you consider that most of the rich are paying taxes in the 15% range due to the majority of their income falling under long-term capital gains and corporations increasingly turning to offshoring their profits to totally avoid taxes, it's time to gut the loopholes and stop forcing the middle and working classes to make up for what the wealthy and big business are skipping out on.

[stevenl]

I agree with you in that regard, however, when conservatives try to tell the public that cutting taxes will stimulate growth and create jobs...sorry, pure BS. We've been trying that for the last nearly 40 years and what do we have to show for it? Income and wealth disparity that is now threatening to destroy the American economy. "Trickle down" coupled with neverending war are to blame for our unimaginable national debt. The government has got to have a major increase in revenue and it is past time for both corporations and the wealthy to start ponying up. When you consider that most of the rich are paying taxes in the 15% range due to the majority of their income falling under long-term capital gains and corporations increasingly turning to offshoring their profits to totally avoid taxes, it's time to gut the loopholes and stop forcing the middle and working classes to make up for what the wealthy and big business are skipping out on.

Totally agree.

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[Grubster]

13 hours ago, Traveler19491 said:

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. The problem is that we allowed our politicians to dump "Reaganomics" on us, for some reason the majority of voters buying the idiotic notion that shoveling money at the wealthy would somehow wind up in the pockets of the middle and working classes. What's needed, in my opinion, is a return to the economic policies of Eisenhower, when the rich were subject to a maximum personal tax bracket of 91% on taxable income above $400,000 and corporations were taxed at 50% on profits above $25,000. That had the effect of corporations and the wealthy reinvesting in their businesses and paying their workers a liveable wage. We didn't see the wealthy or businesses leaving the country. On the contrary, business grew exponentially. Those policies also happened to coincide with the explosion of the middle class, the building of the interstate highway system, the beginning of the space program, the development of the best education system in the world, and the growth of the strongest economy the world had ever seen to that point. I have no problem with people getting rich. The opportunity to succeed is what motivates people to take a chance with their money and start or expand a business. What I have a problem with is greed, and greed is what is driving today's business (and political) practices.

Why is it so few know what you are talking about? It is so clear and easy to see.

[iReason]

Just now, Grubster said:

Why is it so few know what you are talking about? It is so clear and easy to see.

 

Can you please list here, what is "so clear and easy to see"?