U.S. Navy strike group to move toward Korean peninsula - U.S. official

[boomerangutang]

                   N.Korea has a shitload of conventional weapons, and you can bet they're aimed at more places than Seoul.   They surely know where many US troops are based, and the newly installed Thaad missiles.  Koreans in general, also have deep-seated dislike for Japan with roots stretching back over a hundred years.    

 

[kowpot]

On 4/9/2017 at 7:46 PM, baboon said:

I would call them one half of a country called Korea, populated by Koreans who speak Korean and divided by foreign powers.

Watch this and tell me if you still think they are the same country.

 

 

[baboon]

2 hours ago, kowpot said:

Watch this and tell me if you still think they are the same country.

 

 

Same country, two states, thanks to foreign occupation. I don't need to watch any video which confirms this.

[kowpot]

2 hours ago, baboon said:

Same country, two states, thanks to foreign occupation. I don't need to watch any video which confirms this.

I think your confused as to what an occupier is. No part of either Korea is under occupation from a foreign nation. Though, N. Korea is under more control from China than I would imagine it would like to be.

 If you are talking about S. Korea. Then you are totally wrong. S. Korea is a free and democratic nation. Governed by themselves. I have spent more time in S. Korea than I care to mention. Believe me, they are free and independent of any other nation. 

 You hear about U.S. forces in S. Korea, but there are many nations represented in S. Korea. Can't throw a rock without hitting a soldier from Australia or Greece or NZ for that matter. Not to mention the Canadian forces in S. Korea.

[baboon]

49 minutes ago, kowpot said:

I think your confused as to what an occupier is. No part of either Korea is under occupation from a foreign nation. Though, N. Korea is under more control from China than I would imagine it would like to be.

 If you are talking about S. Korea. Then you are totally wrong. S. Korea is a free and democratic nation. Governed by themselves. I have spent more time in S. Korea than I care to mention. Believe me, they are free and independent of any other nation. 

 You hear about U.S. forces in S. Korea, but there are many nations represented in S. Korea. Can't throw a rock without hitting a soldier from Australia or Greece or NZ for that matter. Not to mention the Canadian forces in S. Korea.

A single country was divided by foreign occupiers along the 38th Parallel. The Korean people had no say in the matter. Korea remains divided along broadly the same lines today, though let us not forget the DPRK made territorial gains after the Korean War. 

One of the Korean states still has foreign troops on its soil to this day. The other does not. 

[Chip Allen]

Just what America needs.....another war.

[kowpot]

7 hours ago, baboon said:

A single country was divided by foreign occupiers along the 38th Parallel. The Korean people had no say in the matter. Korea remains divided along broadly the same lines today, though let us not forget the DPRK made territorial gains after the Korean War. 

One of the Korean states still has foreign troops on its soil to this day. The other does not. 

I totally agree. But, they are not occupiers. They would leave if they were asked to. But, the host country wants them there. 

[craigt3365]

8 hours ago, baboon said:

One of the Korean states still has foreign troops on its soil to this day. The other does not. 

At their request, let's not forget that.  From 2003.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/07/international/asia/south-korea-in-surprise-demands-us-forces-stay-in-place.html

 

Quote

 

South Korea, in Surprise, Demands U.S. Forces Stay in Place

SEOUL, South Korea, March 7 — Officials here said today that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld had ignored them in suggesting realignment of American forces in Korea and demanded that they stay where they are at least until resolution of the North Korean nuclear issue.

 

 

[baboon]

3 hours ago, kowpot said:

I totally agree. But, they are not occupiers. They would leave if they were asked to. But, the host country wants them there. 

Of course they do - the government at any rate. Think of the money they must be saving at America's expense...

[craigt3365]

53 minutes ago, baboon said:

Of course they do - the government at any rate. Think of the money they must be saving at America's expense...

And think of the money the US has made by having a great trading partner.  Not to mention they are paying for some of the expenses.  Nice try though.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/10/donald-trump/donald-trump-mostly-wrong-we-get-practically-nothi/

Quote

 

This is not the first time Trump has used this talking point. In 2011, we checked this claim about South Korea: "We have 25,000 soldiers over there protecting them. They don't pay us. Why don't they pay us?"

 

We rated the claim that South Korea doesn't pay False, noting that South Korea had picked up the tab for nearly $700 million in the most recent year for personnel, logistics and construction costs.

 

 

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-allies-20160930-snap-story.html

 

Quote

 

How much do allies pay for U.S. troops? A lot more than Donald Trump says

Five years ago, Hillary Clinton reached one of the least-noticed diplomatic agreements of her tenure as secretary of State — a deal obligating Japan to continue paying nearly $2 billion a year to help defray the cost of U.S. troops stationed on its territory.

 

The Pentagon spends an estimated $10 billion a year on overseas bases. More than 70% of the total is spent in Japan, Germany and South Korea, where most U.S. troops abroad are permanently stationed.

 

 

[boomerangutang]

18 hours ago, kowpot said:

Watch this and tell me if you still think they are the same country.

 

 

                         Very moving.  I don't want to wave my own flag, but I tried starting a signing campaign on Avaaz, 2 yrs ago, specifically targetting Chinese authorities at the border between China and N.Korea.  

 

                       N.Koreans risk their lives, usually crossing the near-freezing Yalu River.  If they get to the Chinese side, they're either imprisoned, sent back to N.Korea or, as the girl mentioned, robbed and/or raped.   THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED BY CHINESE - TO GET TO S.KOREA - that's where the migrants want to go.   Chinese are guilty of crimes against humanity for not allowing migrants passage.  

 

                  Trump and his dummies either don't know about that issue or don't care.  It's never mentioned in the US, and certainly none of Trump's billionaires mentioned it to Chinese officials during Xi's recent visit.  They were too busy eating chocolate cake and bombing Afghanistan and Syria.

[Rob13]

6 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED BY CHINESE - TO GET TO S.KOREA - that's where the migrants want to go.  

 

Nice idea but it'd  work against what China wants. If they did allow NKs tp pass through , there'd be a mass exodus of NK peiople into China, making for  a refugee problem and weakening the NK regime.China wants NK there as a buffer against SK and US troops.

[boomerangutang]

24 minutes ago, Rob13 said:

Nice idea but it'd  work against what China wants. If they did allow NKs tp pass through , there'd be a mass exodus of NK peiople into China, making for  a refugee problem and weakening the NK regime.China wants NK there as a buffer against SK and US troops.

                 That akin to saying the W.Germans should have kept the gates closed on the Berlin Wall.

 

                  China might suffer some discomfort by allowing N.Koreans to traverse their territory, but look at the upside for Chinese:   People need to eat and find shelter.   Koreans crossing thru China would at least buy things to eat.  Chinese love to make money, so that's a silver lining for them.

 

                  I'm only half kidding.  Of course the big issue is:  Oppressed people should be allowed to travel to a place where they can feel safe.   China is stifling that, at the least.   China is not doing anything on the world stage to lessen peoples' suffering from abuse.  They're doing nothing in South Sudan, former Yugoslavia, Central Africa, Middle East, .....you name it.   

 

                 Allowing safe passage to miserable sanctuary-seekers is the least they could do.  Indeed, Chinese should have fleets of large buses parked at the border, ready to give free rides (and meals) to all who need them.  

 

                     Look how quickly E.Germany changed for the better, when the exodus took place with the broken Berlin Wall.   Perhaps something similar would happen in N.Korea, when they (and the world) see tens of thousands of people desperately fleeing to S.Korea.  

 

                 N.Korea has been like a growing pustule.  It needs to be lanced.  It's inevitable.   Will it be done by Uncle Sam dropping nukes? or by mass exodus of their people? or Kim being knocked off, or........?  Allowing internet and internet access would help greatly in the equation, but that's another issue.

 

              Anything Trumpsters do with large bombs is not going to make anything better in N.Korea.  That's a given.

[Scott]

Having worked in numerous countries that have been through wars, including such places as Iraq and the former Yugoslavia, the big task is getting things in some sense of order after the conflict ends.   It takes years of humanitarian assistance and millions, if not billions of dollars to reconstruct a country to a level of functionality.  

 

Given the adoration which many have been indoctrinated to feel for their leaders, I don't know that they are going to be met with parades for their 'liberators'.   Also, given that the only people in a position to lead are either ranking military officials or those closely associated with the Kim dynasty, there is not a good chance of a democracy being installed.  

 

If there is a conflict, I hope those involved are willing to commit to the long, arduous process of building a country.   I hope they are willing to feed, care for and provide the services and provide the billions it will take for a very long time.  

[baboon]

8 minutes ago, Scott said:

 

If there is a conflict, I hope those involved are willing to commit to the long, arduous process of building a country.   I hope they are willing to feed, care for and provide the services and provide the billions it will take for a very long time.  

Are you optimistic on that score, given your experience? 

[Scott]

In general, it is the UN who directs the process, but my experience has been with countries that have had greater exposure to other countries.  

 

If there is a conflict or a swift and effective strike, it will still be many, many years to get the country functioning with a system different than the current one. 

 

It's not about being optimistic, it's about being practical.   Do countries want to spend the time and money on the effort?

 

 

[Rob13]

43 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

                 That akin to saying the W.Germans should have kept the gates closed on the Berlin Wall.

 

 

It'd be more akin to SK keeping the DMZ sealed off. I can't see the PRC doing anything that'd risk having US bases on the NK/ China border. China's problem here is trying to keep the US appeased while propping up Mr Kim and it  doesn't seem to be working out well for anybody involved.

 

The next few years are going to be interesting, I'm pretty sure the NK situation is at a breaking point and

I don't see it working out as smoothly as the East/West German situation did.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Rob13

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

In general, it is the UN who directs the process, but my experience has been with countries that have had greater exposure to other countries.  

 

If there is a conflict or a swift and effective strike, it will still be many, many years to get the country functioning with a system different than the current one. 

 

It's not about being optimistic, it's about being practical.   Do countries want to spend the time and money on the effort?

 

 

I think this case is more comparable to East and West Germany. Of course East Germany wasn't nearly the basket case that North Korea is and the West German/East German population ratio was a lot higher than the South Korea/North Korean ration.  Also, China could put up a road block to reunification. Especially as long as US troops are stationed in the South.

[boomerangutang]

                          I agree, N.Koreans getting liberated will be a more arduous process than what happened with the two Germanies.  

 

                        I also agree with Scott, and have given some thought to the long painful processes that will be required when N.Koreans are brought back into the real world - toward a semblance of sanity.  Some folks will adapt well.  But I think most will be traumatized until they die, because they've been so deeply indoctrinated.   

 

                       A somewhat similar situation happened in the past century with China.  For decades, Chinese were mentally and psychically sat upon by Mao and his harmful policies.  When change happened, mostly with Deng (starting in the 1970s 80s ?) I assume most of elder generations had trouble adapting, whereas younger folks' minds are more pliable.   

 

                     When N.Korea gets liberated (to what degree?) it will become, among other things, the largest # of mentally troubled people since Mao / Stalin / end of WWII.  

 

                      People tend to think of themselves as superior to other species because of their crafty brains.  However, big brains have drawbacks also.  Like a chainsaw, it's how you use it that counts.  If you mishandle a chainsaw, you can have big troubles.   Note:  Whales and elephants have bigger brains than humans.   Does that mean they're smarter than us?   They don't strap on bomb belts and go out to blow up their own species as some of our species do, so I guess they are smarter.

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

15 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

                          I agree, N.Koreans getting liberated will be a more arduous process than what happened with the two Germanies.  

 

                        I also agree with Scott, and have given some thought to the long painful processes that will be required when N.Koreans are brought back into the real world - toward a semblance of sanity.  Some folks will adapt well.  But I think most will be traumatized until they die, because they've been so deeply indoctrinated.   

 

                       

 

 

I think if the North Koreans find themselves situated so that they have enough to eat and even get fat if they want to, that will be a very convincing argument for most of them.

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

I think this case is more comparable to East and West Germany. Of course East Germany wasn't nearly the basket case that North Korea is and the West German/East German population ratio was a lot higher than the South Korea/North Korean ration.  Also, China could put up a road block to reunification. Especially as long as US troops are stationed in the South.

If Korea was unified, most of those troops would leave.  China seems to be worried about an exodus of refugees if the two countries unite:

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/01/china-wouldnt-mind-a-unified-korea-just-not-yet/272492/

Quote

Why, then, does China continue to prop up its unpopular friend? The answer is less ideological than practical -- Beijing understands that the sudden collapse of the North Korean state would result in a huge influx of refugees over its border, presenting severe logistical and humanitarian challenges. The Chinese Communist Party has enough trouble helping its own poor make ends meet -- the last thing it needs is to care for North Korea's destitute as well. 

 

[Rob13]

Pumping up the rhetoric 

Quote

 

“But the era of strategic patience is over,” Pence said. “President Trump has made it clear that the patience of the United States and our allies in this region has run out and we want to see change. We want to see North Korea abandon its reckless path of the development of nuclear weapons, and also its continual use and testing of ballistic missiles is unacceptable.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/trump-china-us-working-on-north-korea-problem/2017/04/16/adeae9f6-2307-11e7-928e-3624539060e8_story.html

[Grouse]

Any possibility of China taking over NK? Some kind of Anschluss maybe? Be better if USA and Japan paid China to do the deed!

[boomerangutang]

excerpt from The Atlantic magazine:  

"Why, then, does China continue to prop up its unpopular friend? The answer is less ideological than practical -- Beijing understands that the sudden collapse of the North Korean state would result in a huge influx of refugees over its border, presenting severe logistical and humanitarian challenges. The Chinese Communist Party has enough trouble helping its own poor make ends meet -- the last thing it needs is to care for North Korea's destitute as well." 

I believe what's mentioned above, but it's wrong-headed for several reasons.  

>>>>  Most, if not all N.Koreans who choose to migrate, will want to get their butts to S.Korea, not stay in China. 

>>>>  Even if some want to get to settle in China, is that so horrible for Chinese?   Europe, the US, Jordan, Turkey and other countries are taking in refugees - at least giving them tents to live in, and allowing NGO's to feed them.  Are Chinese so selfish, they can't extend any help for desperate people crossing their borders?   The answer is a resounding YES. 

 

                 I'll say it again:  Chinese should get buses up to their border with N.Korea - designated to take N.Korean migrants to cross-bay barges which can take them to S.Korea.  S.Korea will accept them.  By doing nothing except sending migrants back to the dragon's lair, is a crime against humanity.