Pool underwater lights wiring

[carlyai]

Mounting them there transformers the way Grollies has done it is fine. No problems. Good installation to mount them in a box.

You guys want to split hairs then take the pool sponsors, and the people who have been installing pools for years and some of their replies to task.

I contacted the pool sponsors about transformers and meeting CELV etc ratings and their reply was that Thailand doesn't recognise these standards. From then I went somewhere else.



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[grollies]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

 

Not trying to yank your chain  ...but those appear to be metal screws through the metal mounting pads of the metal transformer holding it against a rubber strip but still making good electrical contact (thanks to the included washers) to the steel box    ...so the rubber should at least reduce any tranformer vibration.

 

I trust you have a Earth Ground Wire connected to the steel box enclosure, an a RCD upstream.

You didn't read post #86 did you.

 

The mounting boltd are insulated on the back of the steel box by rubber washers - the type used on roof panels.

 

RCD panel upstream? Of course.

 

Anything else?

[grollies]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

 

You are a hansum man.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

I think this photo is more appropriate, Naam:

 

.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

Mounting them there transformers the way Grollies has done it is fine. No problems. Good installation to mount them in a box.

You guys want to split hairs then take the pool sponsors, and the people who have been installing pools for years and some of their replies to task.

I contacted the pool sponsors about transformers and meeting CELV etc ratings and their reply was that Thailand doesn't recognise these standards. From then I went somewhere else.



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Too many experts on here.

 

The point of my post was the poor quality supply of transformers in Thailand and the fact one has to put together one's own installation.

 

So with the provision of transformers from Emaux I had to:

 

1. Insulate the transformer mounting.

 

2. Including insulating the mounting bolts.

 

3. Earth the box at the installed box as well as earthing back to the consumer unit.

 

4. Put it all together in a suitable IP-rated box.

 

So come on @Naam, explain post #89 and @RichCor, what's it like being Naam's byatch?

 

 

[RichCor]

7 minutes ago, grollies said:

The point of my post was the poor quality supply of transformers in Thailand and the fact one has to put together one's own installation.

 

So with the provision of transformers from Emaux I had to:

1. Insulate the transformer mounting.

2. Including insulating the mounting bolts.

3. Earth the box at the installed box as well as earthing back to the consumer unit.

4. Put it all together in a suitable IP-rated box.

With the enclosure properly grounded it's probably all fine. 

Though, I probably wouldn't have insulated the transformers as I'd want any fault condition involving them to immediately trip the RCD, rather than lie in wait for the double-fault to walk by and stick their hand in.

 

But, again, probably fine. The RCD will save the day. Probably.

[grollies]

18 minutes ago, RichCor said:

With the enclosure properly grounded it's probably all fine. 

Though, I probably wouldn't have insulated the transformers as I'd want any fault condition involving them to immediately trip the RCD, rather than lie in wait for the double-fault to walk by and stick their hand in.

 

But, again, probably fine. The RCD will save the day. Probably.

@RichCor, that's the kind of info I was after.

 

Would that be remedied by putting an earth wire to the metal transformer housing?

 

C'mon guys, just after a bit of advice here, same as Carl, sorry for the outburst above.

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, grollies said:

The mounting boltd are insulated on the back of the steel box by rubber washers - the type used on roof panels.

 

 

You can't insulate the bolts, regardless how many rubber washers you put on to and on the back, because the bolt will touch  the transformer metal inside the mounting hole and is drilled in the metal case.

 

 

[RichCor]

15 hours ago, grollies said:

16 hours ago, RichCor said:

I probably wouldn't have insulated the transformers as I'd want any fault condition involving them to immediately trip the RCD, rather than lie in wait for the double-fault to walk by and stick their hand in.

Would that be remedied by putting an earth wire to the metal transformer housing?

C'mon guys, just after a bit of advice here, same as Carl

Question: Keep the chassis frame electrically isolated, or Ground the sucker. 

 

Did the transformers come with any meaningful connection instructions? 

 

With no documentation, you'll first need to VERIFY the transformer chassis frame is truly electrically isolated from any Primary or Secondary taps. 

I tend towards providing a common metal strap with a direct Ground back to the CU Circuit Breaker Box. But if the transformer will be placed in a non-conducting sealed enclosure (won't be opened while system energized) then I will consider letting it float (leave it isolated).

 

Let's do this: summoning @Crossy. Let's see what the demi Jinn has to say.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

Question: Keep the chassis frame electrically isolated, or Ground the sucker. 

 

Did the transformers come with any meaningful connection instructions? 

No

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

 

With no documentation, you'll first need to VERIFY the transformer chassis frame is truly electrically isolated from any Primary or Secondary taps. 

OK, I can do that.

 

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

I tend towards providing a common metal strap with a direct Ground back to the CU Circuit Breaker Box.

How about mounting them on a bus bar and earthing that?

 

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

 

But if the transformer will be placed in a non-conducting sealed enclosure (won't be opened while system energized) then I will consider letting it float (leave it isolated).

 

Let's do this: summoning @Crossy. Let's see what the demi Jinn has to say.

Yep.

[Crossy]

Beware, summoning The Oracle may have unwanted consequences!

 

Firstly, the transformer obtained by carlyai here:-

 

Is exactly what I would expect to be sold by a major supplier of pool equipment, no matter where in the world. It's marked as SELV and Double Insulated, has fuses and is in an insulated plastic box with proper terminals. And it comes with instructions.

 

The transformers shown later in the thread are just that, transformers. Naked. They are not inherently hazardous in and of, themselves, but they can be installed in a hazardous, or even dangerous, manner.

 

At least they appear to be double-wound with a separate bobbin for primary (mains) and secondary (lights), they probably don't have the SELV shield but that doesn't make them dangerous, yet.

 

They need to be in a plastic box, with at least a fuse on the mains side (1A anti-surge). The core (metalwork) should be grounded to guarantee the fuse pops (or RCD opens) if there is a leak between mains and the core. Fuses on the output are a matter of taste, a shorted output will likely open the mains fuse before anything nasty occurs.

 

 

[Naam]

On 6/4/2017 at 6:10 PM, grollies said:

I'm no electrician but insulating a bare transformer made sense to me whatever you may think.

what makes you think i think differently? of course my transformers are in a box. but not a steel box. it still gives me the shivers when i think back that all sockets and switches in the U.S. are mounted -based on code- in metal boxes and wiring in flexible metal conduits.

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Naam said:

... sockets and switches in the U.S. are mounted -based on code- in metal boxes and wiring in flexible metal conduits.

 

And many of them rely on that flexy conduit for the ground connection too.

[RichCor]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

4 minutes ago, Naam said:

it still gives me the shivers when i think back that all sockets and switches in the U.S. are mounted -based on code- in metal boxes and wiring in flexible metal conduits.

And many of them rely on that flexy conduit for the ground connection too.

 

...all connected back to a CU / Breaker Box that doesn't have a RCD anywhere near it (as those are reserved to be placed directly in the bathroom)  ...sigh

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, RichCor said:

 

...all connected back to a CU / Breaker Box that doesn't have a RCD anywhere near it (as those are reserved to be placed directly in the bathroom)  ...sigh

 

And don't even mention knob-and-tube https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring apparently still permitted in certain circumstances.

 

Yes, those bare wires inside the walls you see in the original Tom And Jerry cartoons are really how it was done.

[sappersrest]

OK

I am well prepared for the oracle to shoot me down but here goes.

lets start with a new or reused enclosure.

1   Make or purchase 4 stand off bolts  fix these to the enclosure in each corner so the board  will be about  15 /20 mm from the back.

2    Obtain a non conductive board the name escapes me usually light brown in colour or grp ones are obtainable, failing that

      4 or 6mm pvc

3  Fit it to the stand offs and the board  ensuring that it is easily  removed.

 

4 Remove board and bolt transformers to  it.Note if using pvc as the last resort ensure that the transformers are not in direct contact with the pvc  stand them off at least 10 mm if poss

5 Hopefully  you should have enough room to fit a din rail.

6 To this fit an rcd or rcbo and a suitably rated breaker for each transformer. Abit over the top but if one transformer  fails you can still have  your pool party

7 Wire all  it all up inc earths to the transformers , cabinet not forgetting the door.

8  Then refit board to enclousure.

9  Ensure it is electricly safe.

10  Switch on and enjoy

Also as a footnote  maybe a small cooling fan would not go amiss.

 

Nearly good enough for a trident submarine ????

[Naam]

23 minutes ago, sappersrest said:

maybe a small cooling fan would not go amiss

and perhaps a ½" PVC pipe (sloping to avoid a pump) from the kitchen to the box in which prik nam pla drips on the trafos enabling a low energy consumption mode by causing a turbo effect with low pollution emissions.  

[Naam]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

1 hour ago, Naam said:

it still gives me the shivers when i think back that all sockets and switches in the U.S. are mounted -based on code- in metal boxes and wiring in flexible metal conduits.

And many of them rely on that flexy conduit for the ground connection too.

...all connected back to a CU / Breaker Box that doesn't have a RCD anywhere near it (as those are reserved to be placed directly in the bathroom)  ...sigh

and when an outside socket fails which you need urgently you run around and search in which bathroom that RCD was placed. 

 

very funny is when as foreigner you have no idea that these gadgets exist and are placed in bathrooms integrated in sockets with a tiny switch that pops out.

[grollies]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

And many of them rely on that flexy conduit for the ground connection too.

All 240v sockets in the UK are wall-mounted (recessed or not) in steel boxes are they not?

[grollies]

47 minutes ago, sappersrest said:

OK

I am well prepared for the oracle to shoot me down but here goes.

lets start with a new or reused enclosure.

1   Make or purchase 4 stand off bolts  fix these to the enclosure in each corner so the board  will be about  15 /20 mm from the back.

2    Obtain a non conductive board the name escapes me usually light brown in colour or grp ones are obtainable, failing that

      4 or 6mm pvc

3  Fit it to the stand offs and the board  ensuring that it is easily  removed.

 

4 Remove board and bolt transformers to  it.Note if using pvc as the last resort ensure that the transformers are not in direct contact with the pvc  stand them off at least 10 mm if poss

5 Hopefully  you should have enough room to fit a din rail.

6 To this fit an rcd or rcbo and a suitably rated breaker for each transformer. Abit over the top but if one transformer  fails you can still have  your pool party

7 Wire all  it all up inc earths to the transformers , cabinet not forgetting the door.

8  Then refit board to enclousure.

9  Ensure it is electricly safe.

10  Switch on and enjoy

Also as a footnote  maybe a small cooling fan would not go amiss.

 

Nearly good enough for a trident submarine ????

Yeah, I forgot, transformers are mounted on a stand-off panel within the box, not directly mounted to the steel box enclosure.

 

This make a difference?

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, grollies said:

All 240v sockets in the UK are wall-mounted (recessed or not) in steel boxes are they not?

 

Nope.

 

Metal back boxes are used, but not exclusively and they are required to be grounded by being connected to the ground conductor in the cable.

 

Rigid metal conduit is permissible as the ground conductor, but must be tested to verify its integrity. Flexible conduit is never permitted as a ground.

[carlyai]

So there you go Emaux suppliers. Why not supply a certified transformer with your lights?
You want people to use those deck boxes, but can't supply a certified transformer. Crazy.

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[grollies]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Nope.

 

Metal back boxes are used,

Thought that's what I said above.

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

but not exclusively and they are required to be grounded by being connected to the ground conductor in the cable.

 

Rigid metal conduit is permissible as the ground conductor, but must be tested to verify its integrity. Flexible conduit is never permitted as a ground.

 

[grollies]

5 minutes ago, carlyai said:

So there you go Emaux suppliers. Why not supply a certified transformer with your lights?
You want people to use those deck boxes, but can't supply a certified transformer. Crazy.

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So, Carl, what's your next pool topic to be?

[Chaichara]

5 minutes ago, carlyai said:

So there you go Emaux suppliers. Why not supply a certified transformer with your lights?
You want people to use those deck boxes, but can't supply a certified transformer. Crazy.

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5 minutes ago, carlyai said:

 

The response you  would probably  get  from  the suppliers is something  like:

"We  supply  these as a service. If you  want  us to  import  certified  units, you'll  complain about  the price. If you  don't  like  the ones we offer, go  to  your  local  electric store and buy  them your  self".

And I  would add: better still, get  your  lights installed by  a certified electrician. That;'s probably  what  the pool  equipment  manufacturers expect  anyway. It  says (usually)  in  their documemntation something  like 'This equipment  should only  be installed by  a pool  professional  or qualified electrician'. I  saw a DIY  job recently  where a farang wired his expensive new LED pool  lights near my  house in Krabi directly  to  220V. Nearly  40,000 baht  down the drain!

[carlyai]

The response you  would probably  get  from  the suppliers is something  like:
"We  supply  these as a service. If you  want  us to  import  certified  units, you'll  complain about  the price. If you  don't  like  the ones we offer, go  to  your  local  electric store and buy  them your  self".
And I  would add: better still, get  your  lights installed by  a certified electrician. That;'s probably  what  the pool  equipment  manufacturers expect  anyway. It  says (usually)  in  their documemntation something  like 'This equipment  should only  be installed by  a pool  professional  or qualified electrician'. I  saw a DIY  job recently  where a farang wired his expensive new LED pool  lights near my  house in Krabi directly  to  220V. Nearly  40,000 baht  down the drain!

Come on. I've only got an IQ of 134 and I'm not that stupid...
some of the time. [emoji14]

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[carlyai]

So, Carl, what's your next pool topic to be?
"Where do all these pipes go?"



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[carlyai]

I took Crossy's minimilastic approach.

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[Crossy]

6 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I took Crossy's minimilastic approach.

 

I told you it was a bad idea to use those Texaco engineers to do your plumbing, looks like a well head.

 

Inside Carls pump house.

 

[sappersrest]

37 minutes ago, carlyai said:

So, Carl, what's your next pool topic to be?
"Where do all these pipes go?"



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