Ex-staff changed company car ownership and got loan against it, car now being repossessed!

[madhav]

Long story short, a previously employed member of staff secretly changed the ownership (as written on the blue book) of a company car to her own personal name and from there went on and got a loan against the car. Debt collectors came to repossess the car (months after she had already quit) and management were all completely dumbfounded! 

 

Through further investigation it appears she achieved the loan by forging and faking signatures on a power of attorney, making false police reports (saying blue book was lost) and from there going to the transport department and making the change on the blue book. It was all quite easy for her.

 

My question is, has anyone heard of this kind of thing before? And what can be done? 

 

We have obviously reported it to it to the police, and will be enquiring with a few law firms to gather some advice on what possible outcomes could come from taking it further, just interested to know if anyone had heard of such a thing?

[robblok]

I think your in trouble..  the banks are not at fault so they would have a legal claim on the car.

 

You of course could make the claim against the ex staff member but not sure you could get the money. 

[canthai55]

My X wife sold my car while I was working - just prior to the big D

 

Was helpful at negotiation time between her lawyer and mine

[madhav]

16 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

My X wife sold my car while I was working - just prior to the big D

 

Was helpful at negotiation time between her lawyer and mine

 

She sold your car which was under your name without your knowledge? Damn...

 

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I think your in trouble..  the banks are not at fault so they would have a legal claim on the car.

 

You of course could make the claim against the ex staff member but not sure you could get the money. 

 

Yeah the car is in the ownership and the hands of the finance company, but the means of how it arrived there will definitely be under dispute. 

[robblok]

44 minutes ago, madhav said:

 

She sold your car which was under your name without your knowledge? Damn...

 

 

Yeah the car is in the ownership and the hands of the finance company, but the means of how it arrived there will definitely be under dispute. 

Yes, I get that only if the finance company handled in good faith, and they did because the car was in name of the employee then they are not responsible for the problems. So they can still keep the car and you need to go after the former employee to get the money.

 

The employee changed the car ownership, fraudulently.. its a crime, so he is liable for your damages.

 

The finance company had no reason to think the car was not the property of the employee.. he had the blue book and it was in his name. They acted in good faith. 

 

Its too bad for you because the employee probably lost the money and getting money from someone like that is real hard.

 

(i am assuming here that the good faith laws are universal, maybe your lucky and its different in Thailand)

[canthai55]

51 minutes ago, madhav said:

She sold your car which was under your name without your knowledge? Damn...

There was quite a Cabal of disgruntled X-Wives in that town. As soon as someone was having a problem, they would swoop in and suggest taking the husband for everything they could get.

But faced with a criminal record she caved. Paid child support for my son - her ... SFA

The looks I got from the Coven !!!

[lemonjelly]

Wouldn't the land dept have seen on the computer that the car was in a company name?

Basically it's a stolen car, can loan companies chase people for loans against stolen property?

[madhav]

1 hour ago, lemonjelly said:

Wouldn't the land dept have seen on the computer that the car was in a company name?

Basically it's a stolen car, can loan companies chase people for loans against stolen property?

They did see it was registered to the company but as I said the staff member forged signatures etc on the power of attorney which effectively gave permission for her to the change ownership and the blue book. Apparently we sold it to her! 

 

We went to the transport department and saw the forged documents for ourself. What a web of lies and deceit that was unraveled. Unbelievable really, the manager said this kind of thing has happened before.

Edited April 22, 2017 by madhav

[JaseTheBass]

I saw it with a close friend's business in Bangkok. A disgruntled ex manager got the police to confiscate the company's stock with no court order or evidence of wrongdoing. My friend tried and failed to get any justice. Lost everything.

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Tapatalk

[TheFishman1]

Thais can come up with many scams

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

I think there maybe a legal gap for you if you have a good lawyer. The bank granted finance based of a fraudulent blue book. You still have the original blue book which is the correct and legal one. There is no agreement between you and ex employee regarding the sale of the vehicle and no money changed hands. Your lawyer can argue that the bank gave finance based on fake documents and their credit agreement is thus void.  They have to sue the ex employee to retrieve their money. 

[madhav]

21 minutes ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

I think there maybe a legal gap for you if you have a good lawyer. The bank granted finance based of a fraudulent blue book. You still have the original blue book which is the correct and legal one. There is no agreement between you and ex employee regarding the sale of the vehicle and no money changed hands. Your lawyer can argue that the bank gave finance based on fake documents and their credit agreement is thus void.  They have to sue the ex employee to retrieve their money. 

A new blue book was issued by the department of transport to this staff member based on forged signatures within a power of attorney to transfer ownership, and also false police reports. Truth be told the blue book should never have been reissued in the first place. I agree with you there. However the blue book that she has/had was a legitimate one. It may have been obtained based on fraudulent information and documents, but the end product is still legitimate right? Now the blue book shows the owner as the finance company. It will be interesting to see what the lawyers say come next week. 

[realenglish1]

This is a no brainer Go to the police and file Car Theft  against her

She stone the car Its really simple You must be trolling If you dont know this answer

[madhav]

1 minute ago, realenglish1 said:

This is a no brainer Go to the police and file Car Theft  against her

She stone the car Its really simple You must be trolling If you dont know this answer

The police was the first place we went to after obtaining all the falsified documents at the transport department. Police said they need to a letter to ask her to come to the station to explain her side of the story before anything can be done. 

[al007]

Southernstar, I believe to be correct, but you are going to need a lawyer, or at least have one ready to appear

 

I would modify the approach, I would go to the lender  at a very high level, explain the situation, tell them in no uncertain terms if they take YOUR CAR, they will be liable for damages and your costs

 

Try and take control of the situation back

 

I would take the stance with the lender, this is wholly their problem, nothing to do with you, although you are sympathetic

 

I am assuming the power of attorney was forged

 

You need to document your meeting and immediately after send the lender copies of what was agreed and discussed to the lender

 

If at this stage you need to bring the lawyer out of the bag I think you would have a reasonable chance of getting your costs back as well, at least if it is the lender you have the legal case with, at least they have some assets behind them, unlike the ex employee 

 

You have the blue book plus original purchase invoice I hope, so let them prove you do not own the vehicle, and if they try to reposes call the police

 

Good luck please post the outcome

[realenglish1]

That is normal They will give her some time to come in and if she does not you file charges against her

Even if she comes in she is going to have a hard time explaining all if it

 

Give is a bit of time and the will get their pound of flesh

[Don Mega]

10k to the "right" person can result in a new book with details changed.

[smotherb]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes, I get that only if the finance company handled in good faith, and they did because the car was in name of the employee then they are not responsible for the problems. So they can still keep the car and you need to go after the former employee to get the money.

 

The employee changed the car ownership, fraudulently.. its a crime, so he is liable for your damages.

 

The finance company had no reason to think the car was not the property of the employee.. he had the blue book and it was in his name. They acted in good faith. 

 

Its too bad for you because the employee probably lost the money and getting money from someone like that is real hard.

 

(i am assuming here that the good faith laws are universal, maybe your lucky and its different in Thailand)

The blue book was acquired fraudulently--she forged a power of attorney and claimed a lost blue book--of course suing the motor vehicle department is a laugh. 

[smotherb]

10 minutes ago, al007 said:

Southernstar, I believe to be correct, but you are going to need a lawyer, or at least have one ready to appear

 

I would modify the approach, I would go to the lender  at a very high level, explain the situation, tell them in no uncertain terms if they take YOUR CAR, they will be liable for damages and your costs

 

Try and take control of the situation back

 

I would take the stance with the lender, this is wholly their problem, nothing to do with you, although you are sympathetic

 

I am assuming the power of attorney was forged

 

You need to document your meeting and immediately after send the lender copies of what was agreed and discussed to the lender

 

If at this stage you need to bring the lawyer out of the bag I think you would have a reasonable chance of getting your costs back as well, at least if it is the lender you have the legal case with, at least they have some assets behind them, unlike the ex employee 

 

You have the blue book plus original purchase invoice I hope, so let them prove you do not own the vehicle, and if they try to reposes call the police

 

Good luck please post the outcome

'I would modify the approach, I would go to the lender  at a very high level, explain the situation, tell them in no uncertain terms if they take YOUR CAR, they will be liable for damages and your costs"

 

The lender did nothing wrong--they loaned money on a legitimate title (blue book) with. the car as collateral. Good luck getting anything from them.

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, smotherb said:

The blue book was acquired fraudulently--she forged a power of attorney and claimed a lost blue book--of course suing the motor vehicle department is a laugh. 

Sure but, what i mean to say is that this is not a problem of the finance company.. they saw a blue book.. they are in their right.. This will be between the employee that stole and the person she stole it from not the finance company. 

 

At least this is how it is in most countries, unless you can prove the finance company should have known it was a fake blue book they are in the clear. 

 

 

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, smotherb said:

'I would modify the approach, I would go to the lender  at a very high level, explain the situation, tell them in no uncertain terms if they take YOUR CAR, they will be liable for damages and your costs"

 

The lender did nothing wrong--they loaned money on a legitimate title (blue book) with. the car as collateral. Good luck getting anything from them.

exactly.. this is how it is done in most countries as long as the lender can prove good faith.. then the original owner is screwed

 

[NoBrainer]

Seems a bit fishy. Must have been a real dodgy Finance Company, not one of the big banks.

 

The filing of a false police report to get a replacement Blue Book is quite a heavy crime in itself, and could be good for 5-10 years.

 

The authorities do not take document forgery lightly when it comes to Thai Government documents.

 

The Finance company should never have accepted the Blue Book, as it clearly states on Page 18 that this is a replacement book. All the

finance companies I know would not touch it.

 

But then maybe you are confused, and she merely transferred the car (original book) into her name. That would be quite easy, and result in the original 

book being updated to reflect her as the new owner. No police report required.

 

 

[Don Mega]

5 minutes ago, NoBrainer said:

 

 

The filing of a false police report to get a replacement Blue Book is quite a heavy crime in itself, and could be good for 5-10 years.

 

 

 

 

 

Really . 5 to 10 years (I assume jail)  for who and you can link the law that states this ?

[thailand49]

Hard for some to believe, but the law is pretty much the same everywhere don't sell Thailand short.

That is the problem here in Thailand, there is no safeguards as to someone giving you the ownership book for a loan etc. and then going to the police saying you lost the book etc.. and get a new one.

This is fraud no matter how you look at it, problem is you got to hired lawyers get writing expert to prove your case. The lawyer will file the necessary papers to stop the action against the vehicle until the case is proven in your favor or not. If in your favor, the loaner is out of luck, they then can go after the person. Just my two cents like the rest of you.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, madhav said:

We went to the transport department and saw the forged documents for ourself. What a web of lies and deceit that was unraveled. Unbelievable really, the manager said this kind of thing has happened before.

I'm always amazed (and horrified) at how easy it is here for disgruntled people to steal ownership of things from others via forgery and other means.

 

There have been a LOT of similar cases reported here on the forum over the years. But perhaps you should consider yourself lucky, OP, because the similar past cases I'm thinking of often have been CONDO or other ownership cases, where vengeful ex-wives and others have stolen things away.

 

The guys wake up one morning, and suddenly discover they don't own what they had paid for/thought they owned. And seemingly, no one in the government departments was looking TOO HARD or doing much verification/checking when the crooks show up with fake documents.

[colinneil]

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I'm always amazed (and horrified) at how easy it is here for disgruntled people to steal ownership of things from others via forgery and other means.

 

There have been a LOT of similar cases reported here on the forum over the years. But perhaps you should consider yourself lucky, OP, because the similar past cases I'm thinking of often have been CONDO or other ownership cases, where vengeful ex-wives and others have stolen things away.

 

The guys wake up one morning, and suddenly discover they don't own what they had paid for/thought they owned. And seemingly, no one in the government departments was looking TOO HARD or doing much verification/checking when the crooks show up with fake documents.

 

 Tall guy John you are 100% correct.

I lost a house/ car/ 2 motorbikes, because my ex along with a crooked lawyer and crooked police forged documents and lied in court.

What chance does a farang have against a crooked system??? A nswer NONE.

So the OP is lucky it was only a car.

[madhav]

I am not surprised by some of the other stories in this thread. It is quite disturbing nevertheless. This will not end well for the staff member in question. I was hoping it would not come to this, but unfortunately for her sake it looks like it will. 

 

The blue book was reported as stolen by the ex staff, she went to the police to report it and the police report was taken along with the other necessary falsified documents to the transport department to reissue a new blue book. From there she produced some more falsified documents to transfer the ownership over to her. After this the finance company was contacted and the loan was given. I might add that as far as I know this staff member knew someone within the company and they are/were friends. 

 

Also so we still have the original blue book, although the finance company says it is not applicable anymore as the blue book was reported as lost.

Edited April 22, 2017 by madhav

[simon43]

Also so we still have the original blue book, although the finance company says it is not applicable anymore as the blue book was reported as lost.

 

But the staff member reported the blue book lost, not the legal owner of the vehicle? Surely only the legal owner can file a police report to say that the blue book was lost?

[madhav]

Just now, simon43 said:

 

 

 

But the staff member reported the blue book lost, not the legal owner of the vehicle? Surely only the legal owner can file a police report to say that the blue book was lost?

Power of attorney (false signature) says she can report it as lost.

[Thaidream]

In essence- the finance company if they have the car is in possession of stolen property. In addition to fraud; forgery and other things- the person filed a false police report all of which are crimes.  The system in Thailand does involve 'inviting' the accused to present their side of the story.  If they don't come in- the police will issue an arrest warrant and the accused will probably disappear and will remain dormant unless the police are 'persuaded' to pursue the accused.  Eventually, she will have to renew her Thai ID card.

This case will go on for a long time- unfortunately the rightful owner-the company will be without their property and the finance company without their money until the accused is caught; brought to trial and convicted.

What a mess.