Why do aircons seem to have so many problems here?

[bazza73]

7 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

The age old Samsung in my room still works,

Can not remember when last gas filling was.

 

Six year old Mitsubishi (Heavy Duty) without problems.

The latest Mitsubishi inverter is only two year old and thankfully no problem too.

We let cleaning been done once a year.

 

Poor installation seems a likely reason for the described problems.

 

I should mention that all three ACs are only in operation for about 4 months a year and even then not on a daily basis.

"Lightly used" so to say.

Mitsubishi have a good reputation, I've had three over about twenty years in Oz and they have been very reliable.

Bought two Panasonics here ( based on price ) and I've had a couple of switch failures. Nothing wrong with the compressor or fan.

[ThaiWai]

Longer use, poor repairs.  Nuff said.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 hours ago, Naam said:

the aircons don't leak. shoddy piping work leaks!

Indeed, when the "techs" do the install, if they don't do the correct job of handling the AC piping, you certainly could end up with an AC system that's slowly leaking freon.

 

[Dumbastheycome]

7 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Another factor that prevails more in the Bahn Nork locations is the poor electric supply from the PEA. Plenty towns have voltages that fall below 200 V AC in the suburbs (and as low as 170 V AC in our house) in the early evenings when a lot of people are switching on their air conditioners to cool down the bedroom, cooking (mostly gas but always plenty electric fans) and some having hot showers before turning. The more 'lumpy' the electric, then more mechanical issues are likely. Inductive electric loads (electric motors and compressors) take a hammering. Arguably, homes with unstable electric supplies may benefit from having inverter type units installed?

Valid  comment. Surges  and  spikes common  in  some  areas have the potential  to cause  electronic  control  errors  that  can  lead on to   mechanical  stresses. 

Also a  common issue  with  any  electronic  controlled unit in houses that  have not  been installed  with  protective  supply  boards.  Even then  there  is  no  absolute  guarantee.

[thaipara]

Several years ago I worked with a friend who did HVAC and domestic aircon/heating. And I have seen how the local techs went about the replacement of a compressor. Just bolt it in and connect the lines, bung in some gas, and it was all over in 30  minutes. Properly speaking, the system should have been evacuated with a vacuum pump before the refrigerant was introduced. In systems he really cared about, he'd run the pump for 24 hours. And yes it made a difference. 

 

That's just one thing those techs didn't do that they should have done. I mentioned to the rental rep that he could expect problems within two or three years. It was 2.5 years, actually.

[Naam]

4 hours ago, digbeth said:

 

For new air conditioners these days, the supplied piping comes in pre cut length and only requires bending and fitting of connectors at the end. very minimal chance of botching things up in typical installation

because there are no different distances between evaporator and condenser to bridge? my shortest pipe length is 3.5 the longest 17meters.

 

next!

[wpcoe]

6 hours ago, digbeth said:

 

For new air conditioners these days, the supplied piping comes in pre cut length and only requires bending and fitting of connectors at the end. very minimal chance of botching things up in typical installation

 

1 hour ago, Naam said:

because there are no different distances between evaporator and condenser to bridge? my shortest pipe length is 3.5 the longest 17meters.

 

next!

I was wondering how they could pre-size the pipes when each installation is unique.  I thought I must be missing something obvious, but it seems you felt the same.

 

digbeth: Can you clarify what you meant?  I suspect that what you meant and what Naam and I are understanding might not be the same?

[abab]

6 hours ago, Moonlover said:

 

I completely agree with you Fulwell. I sometimes wish that all postings had a 'not like' toggle that we could choose to show our displeasure when morons like this make their bigoted postings. Maybe the the mods will take note. But, judging by the number of 'likes' he got, it would be be like trying to slow the flow of the Chao Phraya with a squeegee mop. Maybe we're in the wrong place!

 

 

Hard to accept the truth because you could be one of them ?

 

I perfect agree with the quoted reply, so true and really need to be taught to people who strictly know nothing in this life.

 

 

[tropo]

15 hours ago, jadee said:

I agree with Minimiglia - if you've genuinely had countless problems, there must have been an installation issue. I live in Samut Prakarn and I've had the same LG air conditioner for 9 years, I use it daily and I've never had to have it professionally serviced (as in fixed or repaired). I have paid to have it cleaned regularly though, once every 6 months. On two or three occasions, the company has topped up the gas. 
Your problems could stem from a botched installation job or that the people you have to call out to have it serviced aren't trained to fix Samsung units. 

 

 

I can go one better than that. I have 3 Mitsubishi units, most of which have worked daily all year round for over 6 years... and have only had them cleaned twice in that time. A clean once a year should be enough. The only (minor) problems I've had with the units were caused by the cleaners.

Edited April 27, 2017 by tropo

[jacko45k]

If you regas them, they do leak.

If you don't use them at all for months on end I believe seals get dry and create problems.

I give mine a 20 minute run every month or so, those that haven't been operated.

 

It might also be you have cheaper units with lower reliability. I did have a Samsung unit, it needed more than filters cleaning, the drum fan got caked up really fast and it was hard to get at. Installation is also sometimes below par and the units shake and move too much. So I was told by the Daikin repair guys who replaced all my piping, they said original installation meant they rubbed together when operating.

[pizzachang]

13 hours ago, silent said:

From what I read a few years ago that makes a lot of sense, it's the quality of the solder used in the gas lines 

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/95404-soldering-refrigeration-lines

They should only be using silver solder - really brazing. Regular cleaning is the one thing a homeowner can do that extends the life of a/c equipment. Anytime the pump motor has to work harder, the cause is either a leak, physical damage to some electrical component or contamination of parts that work best when clean.  Water scale, aluminum corrosion, copper corrosion are all long-term sources of problems.

[silent]

13 hours ago, digbeth said:

 

For new air conditioners these days, the supplied piping comes in pre cut length and only requires bending and fitting of connectors at the end. very minimal chance of botching things up in typical installation

If minimal chance of botching things up is a good enough standard, more power to you.

[Naam]

3 hours ago, jacko45k said:

If you don't use them at all for months on end I believe seals get dry and create problems.

only automotive aircons have seals.

[Naam]

2 hours ago, pizzachang said:

They should only be using silver solder - really brazing.

that was the done thing in olden times till the commodity silver became too expensive.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

only automotive aircons have seals.

So any issues with not using them for months on end?  I still have the habit of running some evey 6 weeks, or so, the rarely used ones, in spare bedroom and large lounge. (Beyond just veryfying they still work!)

[silent]

14 hours ago, Naam said:

or, what i suspect, in many cases the after-installation-goose-that-lays-Baht!

There's a lot of DIY installation experts in every country that need two people turning the ladder so they can screw up a light bulb.

I'm not sure if there's any regulation in this one yet that requires certification to put in an electric cooler, but I'm sure they all have to pass some sort of inspection   

[ignis]

Have 2 Panasonic ones. both still going strong after 14 years  here... both installed the same day when the house was built.

 

The one downstairs used most days for 2-3 hours early evening for 9 or 10 months a year,  the one upstairs  in the master bedroom used maybe for 6 weeks a year set on 27, but this one stops working every year, fully out of gas, it has also had the fan replaced twice, this year some relay had blown as well as no gas repaired on Tuesday total bill 1.700 baht.....  

 

Got him to check the gas on the downstairs one while he was here = fine as it was last year and the year before, it has had to have a bit of gas in twice in 14 years.

 

Cant say it is a real problem, but why dose one run out of gas and the other not ?  lack of use ? would running this one say 30 mins every week stop this problem ?

[Naam]

18 minutes ago, ignis said:

Cant say it is a real problem, but why dose one run out of gas and the other not ?

one leaks the other does not. nothing to do with use.

[Naam]

39 minutes ago, silent said:

I'm not sure if there's any regulation in this one yet that requires certification to put in an electric cooler, but I'm sure they all have to pass some sort of inspection 

yo' sho' is wrong mate 

[Naam]

59 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

So any issues with not using them for months on end?

none!  in the guest room of my parents' house (loft) in Germany i installed 47 years ago small 5,000 btu/h rattler. that unit is used once or twice for a few days in summer. never serviced. cools well as it cooled last century.

[Pib]

Some leaks are so small and in locations on the outside or inside unit that they are almost impossible to detect with electonic detectors or leak dye. Just very small leaks from corrosion, latent manufacturing defects, etc.

"Normally" the only place connectors are used is right at the outside and inside units connection points and these connectors are metal flare connectors...no rubber seals involved. Lengths of tubing are tailored made/cut to required length by the installer.

For my 7 A/Cs the piping distance between the outside and inside units ranges from around 4 to 10 meters.

The outside unit compressor is hermetically sealed like used in a refrigerator.

To date my 9 year or so units have never required a refrigerant topup. 3 are reqularly used; the other 4 rarely.

[giddyup]

The overwhelming consensus seems to be that most aircons in Thailand are trouble free and go for years and years. How unlucky am I to get three bad ones that seem to require constant maintenance?

[Anythingleft?]

Some points about the electrical failures and power surges is valid, for the mechanical failures mostly it will come down to poor installation. Everybody normally has a brand favourite but having seen the "techs" at work it is just crappy installation from the start. No pressure testing of lines, no purging after soldering, lack of vacuum (10 minutes doesn't cut it) not had the joy of seeing a carrier or daikin employee at work but I would like to think they were a bit better. Normal service life expectancy of an AC is 10-15 years, if it needs charging its leaking it is not a normal part of the service at all

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[digbeth]

10 hours ago, wpcoe said:

 

I was wondering how they could pre-size the pipes when each installation is unique.  I thought I must be missing something obvious, but it seems you felt the same.

 

digbeth: Can you clarify what you meant?  I suspect that what you meant and what Naam and I are understanding might not be the same?

 

Normally when you buy the aircon from big stores like Homepro or even BigC, they come included with a lenght of pipes, the installer normally would coil the leftover bits in a circle behind the condensing units, no need to cut or join/weld any pipes, less chance of any leaks.

 

The length of the 'free' pipes is fine for most installation but for detached house, that'd means unsightly units on the exterior wall because the condensing units can't be too far from the indoor unit.

 

When I had my house built 20 years ago when the house was first built the aircon pipes and electrics are all built into the wall and ran from 2nd floor down to the ground where the condensing units could be hidden, over the years it'd develop leaks which can't be fixed without tearing the wall and rendering out, and when I replace the old remote-less metal units with new ones the installer said that to run the pipes that far away would means some loss in performance, and the house is so old I'm beyond caring about how it looks with aircond bits hanging outside so ended up just hanging the condenser units out on the wall outside now.

[Anythingleft?]

 
Normally when you buy the aircon from big stores like Homepro or even BigC, they come included with a lenght of pipes, the installer normally would coil the leftover bits in a circle behind the condensing units, no need to cut or join/weld any pipes, less chance of any leaks.
 
The length of the 'free' pipes is fine for most installation but for detached house, that'd means unsightly units on the exterior wall because the condensing units can't be too far from the indoor unit.
 
When I had my house built 20 years ago when the house was first built the aircon pipes and electrics are all built into the wall and ran from 2nd floor down to the ground where the condensing units could be hidden, over the years it'd develop leaks which can't be fixed without tearing the wall and rendering out, and when I replace the old remote-less metal units with new ones the installer said that to run the pipes that far away would means some loss in performance, and the house is so old I'm beyond caring about how it looks with aircond bits hanging outside so ended up just hanging the condenser units out on the wall outside now.

Try a different installer because that reply is nonsense, the unit and condenser can be anywhere. The only difference would be a slightly bigger refrigerant charge to cover the extra pipe volume.
Again the lack of training, system knowledge and actually taking the time to set the units up correctly is the issue


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[Naam]

13 minutes ago, digbeth said:

The length of the 'free' pipes is fine for most installation but for detached house, that'd means unsightly units on the exterior wall because the condensing units can't be too far from the indoor unit.

the condensing units can be without any problems up to 25m distance from the indoor unit. in fact this distance is not the limit but going further means tangible loss of cooling capacity.

[Naam]

Quote

digbeth said:

the installer said that to run the pipes that far away would means some loss in performance,

 

34 minutes ago, Anythingleft? said:

Try a different installer because that reply is nonsense, the unit and condenser can be anywhere.

 

the reply is not completely nonsense but partially justified. long pipes mean more friction and therefore more power consumption to pump the liquified refrigerant to the evaporator. any distances beyond 10 meters should therefore be compensated by increasing pipe diameter. and of course "can be anywhere" is a "slight" exaggeration

 

needless to mentio that this kind of demand would cause the installer telling his helper "this Falang him clazy too mutt!"

 

but i found several years ago a comment by a learned aircon eggsburt (in a tech forum!) who claimed the evaporator unit can be installed in Bangkok and the compressor/condenser in Melbourne  without any problems as long as one has the funds to pay for the copper

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Naam

[Anythingleft?]

digbeth said:
the installer said that to run the pipes that far away would means some loss in performance,

 
 
the reply is not completely nonsense but partially justified. long pipes mean more friction and therefore more power consumption to pump the liquified refrigerant to the evaporator. any distances beyond 10 meters should therefore be compensated by increasing pipe diameter. and of course "can be anywhere" is a "slight" exaggeration [emoji2]
 
needless to mentio that this kind of demand would cause the installer telling his helper "this Falang him clazy too mutt!"
 
but i found several years ago a comment by a learned aircon eggsburt (in a tech forum!) who claimed the evaporator unit can be installed in Bangkok and the compressor/condenser in Melbourne  without any problems as long as one has the funds to pay for the copper
 
 
 

IMO its all a moot point anyway as I would put money on the installation not being up to any particular standard, meaning that unless the OP is very lucky there will be future recharges and unit issues

Not worth getting into the nitty gritty debate of it if you cannot even have them pull a vacuum to the correct level and hold it for a set test period

Regarding the pipe length it would be an "assumption" that the units would be put to the closest ground space which is what most people are after not down the bottom of the garden, although you did first off say 25mt then revert to 10mt? Either way the service tech appears to be lacking in
either knowledge or the desire to do the work to the OP's requirements



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[Naam]

11 minutes ago, Anythingleft? said:

Regarding the pipe length it would be an "assumption" that the units would be put to the closest ground space which is what most people are after not down the bottom of the garden, although you did first off say 25mt then revert to 10mt?

technically pipe lengths of 25m (and more) are no problem. but the loss of cooling capacity between a distance of 10m and 25m is measurable if the pipe diameter is not increased. many rainy seasons ago the rule of thumb was "same pipe diameter every additional length of 5m = 3.5% capacity loss". i'm not sure whether the switch from piston to rotary compressors affects that old rule.

[silent]

6 hours ago, Naam said:

yo' sho' is wrong mate 

Thanks for sharing that uncle Jed