Chaturon lashes out at junta’s ‘poor’ performance

[Becker]

2 hours ago, JCauto said:

This is, with all due respect, a mischaracterization of this Forum. When it happened, I'd say the majority of posters here were all in favour of it, being the necessary medicine to rid the country of the horrible scourge of Thaksin. This was not surprising, in my opinion, given that the majority of posters live in major cities hence have little contact with the Red faction, understanding of the grievances of the rural poor, the domination of the economy by Chinese Thai or the building of a nation through a series of convenient myths purporting to represent history.

And I believe you're wrong. IMO most of us were able to understand more or less right away that coup/coup attempt # 20, led by an ultra-nationalist and ultra-royalist and supported by the likes of a certain robber rubber baron, was never going to change anything but the snouts in the trough.

Obviously and unfortunately we were right. What a shocker!!!

 

WRT the majority of TVF members living in urban areas (if that's true at all) that's definitively not an obstacle for empathizing with people who have always been marginalized by an entrenched elite.

Too bad that it was an a-hole like Thaksin that woke them up and not a Gandhi type. But even so despite the junta's desperate efforts they will never be able to turn the clock back to the "good old days".

"Som nam naa" comes to mind.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Becker

[candide]

3 hours ago, Becker said:

And I believe you're wrong. IMO most of us were able to understand more or less right away that coup/coup attempt # 20, led by an ultra-nationalist and ultra-royalist and supported by the likes of a certain robber rubber baron, was never going to change anything but the snouts in the trough.

Obviously and unfortunately we were right. What a shocker!!!

 

WRT the majority of TVF members living in urban areas (if that's true at all) that's definitively not an obstacle for empathizing with people who have always been marginalized by an entrenched elite.

Too bad that it was an a-hole like Thaksin that woke them up and not a Gandhi type. But even so despite the junta's desperate efforts they will never be able to turn the clock back to the "good old days".

"Som nam naa" comes to mind.

I agree with you. Anyone with some experience of life and/or a brain could see it coming.

[JCauto]

4 hours ago, Becker said:

And I believe you're wrong. IMO most of us were able to understand more or less right away that coup/coup attempt # 20, led by an ultra-nationalist and ultra-royalist and supported by the likes of a certain robber rubber baron, was never going to change anything but the snouts in the trough.

Obviously and unfortunately we were right. What a shocker!!!

 

WRT the majority of TVF members living in urban areas (if that's true at all) that's definitively not an obstacle for empathizing with people who have always been marginalized by an entrenched elite.

Too bad that it was an a-hole like Thaksin that woke them up and not a Gandhi type. But even so despite the junta's desperate efforts they will never be able to turn the clock back to the "good old days".

"Som nam naa" comes to mind.

Well, I engaged in several of those forum threads and, while the memory gets foggier as I get fogey-er, I'm pretty sure I was in the enlightened minority at the time. And I don't share your experience in respect to those who live in urban areas and their views on the Reds which I found hopelessly uninformed. 

However, we are in agreement about the events, so no worries. Would love to hear from some of the Junta-backers who have come to realize they were duped. I expect we'll see a similar trajectory with the Trump-ers, they'll just get increasingly quiet until they consider changing their user names to delete their previous posting history.

[Rhys]

Naggg...just look at all the wonderful progress, a... new submarine squadron with Chinese subs... and free rice...

[robertson468]

Have to be fair, I believe the main achievement of the coupe was to stop what was becoming potentially a civil war in Thailand with the frequent murders of the different party members and what appeared to have become outrageous levels of corruption.  No doubt many Forum Members will have their own views as to what the catalyst for that is, ranging from one individual, to the culture of Thailand still going through the stages of development and being likened a little to the wild west.  As for this Gentleman's criticism of the Junta in saying they have achieved little for the Country, I would suggest that he, as the Ex-Minister for Education is very much a case of  "the pot calling the kettle black". 

[YetAnother]

Like other posters,this is the first coherent PT I agree with

[YetAnother]

Actually should be called non performance

Military generals don't lead countries at all well

[Baerboxer]

On 5/13/2017 at 11:02 AM, Cadbury said:

To more correctly describe itself the National Council for Peace and Order should be re-named National Council for Disunity and Civil Regulation. 

I know little of the man (Chaturon) who is making these comments about the governance of the military junta but regardless of who or what he is he seems to be reasonably accurate in what he says.

Most military people, particularly officers, have one character trait in which they excel and that is discipline. The fact that they like to practice their discipline skills on the plebeians is therefore not surprising. 

I suspect the Officer's Mess is a factory for their poorly thought through policies; particularly in the later hours prior to closing.

 

How nice that you joined the site last Friday. Just in time to make a statement like this.

 

Perhaps you have some similar observations about career politicians too?

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, YetAnother said:

Actually should be called non performance

Military generals don't lead countries at all well

 

Neither do many politicians! 

 

The only common trait is the increases in wealth!

[Baerboxer]

On 5/13/2017 at 8:22 PM, Eric Loh said:

We always like to hear from Halloween no matter how pathetic he sound. 

 

Don't be so modest Eric. You out do him every time! 

[JCauto]

11 hours ago, robertson468 said:

Have to be fair, I believe the main achievement of the coupe was to stop what was becoming potentially a civil war in Thailand with the frequent murders of the different party members and what appeared to have become outrageous levels of corruption.  No doubt many Forum Members will have their own views as to what the catalyst for that is, ranging from one individual, to the culture of Thailand still going through the stages of development and being likened a little to the wild west.  As for this Gentleman's criticism of the Junta in saying they have achieved little for the Country, I would suggest that he, as the Ex-Minister for Education is very much a case of  "the pot calling the kettle black". 

At least you have the personal integrity to admit that you were one of those who originally supported the coup and provide some reasonable explanation of why you supported it. 

I don't believe the situation was as dire in terms of the potential for civil war as you believed it to be, and if it was, that was simply a case of those who have had power for the last 100 years wishing to retain it at all costs even if it means war. Nor were there frequent murders of different party members - who are you referring to? As to corruption, this old canard was the main excuse that I recall being used as justification for the coup, along with the usual discrediting of the vote of the rural "buffalo" having been "bought". Fortunately for those on your side, this point has been proven beyond a doubt since the current regime have been as clean as a whistle and have put in place the sort of transparency and open government that will ensure that corruption is a thing of the past in the Land of Smile.

 

It was never about corruption, that's widely accepted as the way things work in Southeast Asia. It was about WHO was getting access to that government firehose of baht, and the direction it was pointing. Anyway, as noted, I do appreciate that you're willing to stand up and discuss the issue from your perspective and in a reasonable manner. 

[JCauto]

28 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Neither do many politicians! 

 

The only common trait is the increases in wealth!

The only difference is that one gets to choose the first, and can replace them at regular intervals if they don't perform according to the wishes of the majority, whereas the others...

Just to reiterate so that any discussion doesn't get derailed - yes, Thaksin was a corrupt and autocratic scumbag. Yes, that describes most of the political classes when they get into power in Southeast Asia especially if they're a bit cleverer than most. But my point, and that of many at the time, was that institutions don't develop if they're never allowed to actually govern or even mis-govern. Whenever one side or another can just call in the boys in green whenever they like, there's no need to attempt to participate in democracy in a real sense, it's just another tool in the elites' endless fight over the majority of the goodies. 

If there were an actual belief in democracy and institutions, then this mob would have dispensed with Thaksin and gotten out of there quickly. Which has happened exactly zero times out of 16+. Which tells you all you need to know about the democratic and idealistic views of the current crew and their forbears (whom all shared pretty much the same viewpoint and methods). 

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, JCauto said:

The only difference is that one gets to choose the first, and can replace them at regular intervals if they don't perform according to the wishes of the majority, whereas the others...

Just to reiterate so that any discussion doesn't get derailed - yes, Thaksin was a corrupt and autocratic scumbag. Yes, that describes most of the political classes when they get into power in Southeast Asia especially if they're a bit cleverer than most. But my point, and that of many at the time, was that institutions don't develop if they're never allowed to actually govern or even mis-govern. Whenever one side or another can just call in the boys in green whenever they like, there's no need to attempt to participate in democracy in a real sense, it's just another tool in the elites' endless fight over the majority of the goodies. 

If there were an actual belief in democracy and institutions, then this mob would have dispensed with Thaksin and gotten out of there quickly. Which has happened exactly zero times out of 16+. Which tells you all you need to know about the democratic and idealistic views of the current crew and their forbears (whom all shared pretty much the same viewpoint and methods). 

 

Don't disagree with your sentiments.

 

Accept it's not democracy, and can never be, unless there is a robust justice system, which operates independently of government; and robust checks & balances.

 

The UK and US, arguable the oldest and most accountable, of democratic models still have issues, as we are currently seeing. In SEA many nations suffer from a sort of democracy which ranges from family controlled, such as Singapore and more recently Cambodia, to one party states a la China and Vietnam to family dictatorship in NK,  Not much democracy in reality whether elections are held or not.

 

Here, one side may well be able to call in the military whereas the other are aligned to the police. Neither, no matter how they came to power have tremendous track records in delivery step changes for the masses. And neither are interested in promoting the essentials of democracy such as free speech, robust free media, real accountability and transparency and a robust justice system. In the 17 years of this century can you name where any of those areas have improved?

 

Chaturon is perfectly within his rights to challenge the performance of the current government. But, equally, is then open to questions concerning the performance of all other governments this century to compare performance, and as a former Minister, his own.

 

 

[JCauto]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Don't disagree with your sentiments.

 

Accept it's not democracy, and can never be, unless there is a robust justice system, which operates independently of government; and robust checks & balances.

 

The UK and US, arguable the oldest and most accountable, of democratic models still have issues, as we are currently seeing. In SEA many nations suffer from a sort of democracy which ranges from family controlled, such as Singapore and more recently Cambodia, to one party states a la China and Vietnam to family dictatorship in NK,  Not much democracy in reality whether elections are held or not.

 

Here, one side may well be able to call in the military whereas the other are aligned to the police. Neither, no matter how they came to power have tremendous track records in delivery step changes for the masses. And neither are interested in promoting the essentials of democracy such as free speech, robust free media, real accountability and transparency and a robust justice system. In the 17 years of this century can you name where any of those areas have improved?

 

Chaturon is perfectly within his rights to challenge the performance of the current government. But, equally, is then open to questions concerning the performance of all other governments this century to compare performance, and as a former Minister, his own.

 

 

Our views aren't very different, but I would emphasize that only one side resorts to military coups, and does so repeatedly and regardless of where the side who were elected got elected from. I don't believe there's ever been a police-led coup in Thailand, and wonder whether it's even feasible logistically and militarily. That in itself says pretty much everything in terms of the current leadership and its predecessors points of view in regard to democracy - it's an annoyance that one must put up with to a certain point whereupon one retakes control and restores the "natural" order.

I would also disagree in respect to the track record on delivery step changes for the masses - in my opinion this is indeed the primary reason that Thaksin became such a villain to the powers-that-be in stark contrast to the previous ousted leaders. His decentralization of power to the Tambon councils and governors and populist health policy were two examples of fundamental and radical change that directly provided benefits and a higher degree of control to the rural people. That will not stand with the current junta or their backers.

 

Your points on progress on fundamental democratic and justice institutions and Chaturon are agreed upon.

[Cadbury]

9 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

How nice that you joined the site last Friday. Just in time to make a statement like this.

 

Perhaps you have some similar observations about career politicians too?

Yes I do might do old timer. While I tug my forelock to your respected position in this forum I do not see what career politicians anywhere have to do with the subject of military juntas in Thailand. So any such observations by me about elected politicians would be irrelevant; much like your smartass comments.

And what has the date I joined got to do with my qualifications to comment about this unelected present government. Are you suggesting I only arrived in Thailand on Thursday afternoon?

Hard night last night Baerboxer, up late boxing with the shadows?

Edited May 15, 2017 by Cadbury

[elgordo38]

On 5/13/2017 at 10:51 AM, tracker1 said:

Not Fair ! The General has not had his chance to list all his achievments yet  ! oh hope the media can report !!!!

I think the good general is about to unleash their 3 year report card in the next day or 2 should be interesting. Boots and oil slicker optional.