Too late to become a bitcoin millionaire?

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, csabo said:

Agreed, buy on lows sell on highs.  Just unnerving when an investment drops 30% in a day and you can't even access your account.  Like always there were winners and losers.

 

When it drops that is the time to buy more.

You don't need to worry about the drops if you are looking to hold for 5-10 years.

 

 

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, csabo said:

True, Nothing goes straight up.  That applies to all things in life including any and all types of investments.  Good for you on buying on the dip, most people could not access their accounts.

Those of us in Thailand had no problems accessing our accounts.

Only people using exchanges outside Thailand were having issues.
 

[JimmyJ]

Coinbase has a long history of being inaccessible when there is a market drop.

But they also have a long history of many other negatives:

 

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5ljngm/bad_luck_jeremy_circle_ceo/dbwrp8z/?sort=new

[seancbk]

8 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

Coinbase has a long history of being inaccessible when there is a market drop.

But they also have a long history of many other negatives:

 

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5ljngm/bad_luck_jeremy_circle_ceo/dbwrp8z/?sort=new

 

So don't use them.

There is a great exchange here in Thailand and for alt coins they don't carry, Bittrex is easy to get an account with.

 

[JimmyJ]

It's worth mentioning that after the "crash", the value is now merely almost 5 times what it was a year ago.

 

Of course, it could go down much more in the next few months.

If things sort out on August 1st and the aftermath, there will be a big spike upwards.

 

Jihan Wu knows what will happen before he releases an aggressive anti- UASF statement - the market will drop.

He has to be making a fortune shorting the market before he releases a statement.

 

One of the Core developers mentioned something in a podcast that made me think of this forum as he mentioned something I see people frequently mention in posts here.

He said he went to China to meet with Wu and try to find out why he was being so resistant and wouldn't compromise. He said he still doesn't know, but that one possibility is Wu wanting to save face (by not backing down).

So the developer (can't recall his name) said "We're calling his bluff".

No one knows how it will go during the next few months.

 

I just read an encouraging article stating that it is now less likely that there will be a hard fork:

 

https://coinjournal.net/bitcoin-now-likely-get-segwit-august-1st-avoid-chain-split/

[SmartJoe]

any taxes or irs on selling bitcoins abroad and importing money in a Thai bank ?

[luk AJ]

There is still money to be made. The market is getting saturated though so finding the right entry is key. Check out Ethereum. Done well here.
 

Hahaha, I just bought and lost 20% the first day but you are right, this cryptocurrency will pass the 1000usd mark soon. In fact a lot of bitcoin owners are shifting to ethereum.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JimmyJ]

People new to bitcoin may find it interesting to look at this page at one of the bitcoin exchanges: 

https://www.bitstamp.net/market/tradeview/

 

There's a dropdown on the top left which can be set to BTC/USD or BTC/EURO.

 

One can see the buy/sell in  real time (green/buy; red/sell) on the left column.

Amount of btc/time of day/buy or sell price.

 

The bottom right shows the BID (offer to buy at that price) and ASK (offer to sell at that price).

 

 

I saw earlier someone make a trade for 1 satoshi.

"Satoshi (unit) - Bitcoin Wiki

The satoshi is currently the smallest unit of the bitcoin currency recorded on the block chain. It is a one hundred millionth of a single bitcoin (0.00000001 BTC ..."

[speedtripler]

28 minutes ago, luk AJ said:

Hahaha, I just bought and lost 20% the first day but you are right, this cryptocurrency will pass the 1000usd mark soon. In fact a lot of bitcoin owners are shifting to ethereum.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

bitcoin owners are not all switching to ethereum  ,the total market cap is growing exponentially 

most of the people i know including myself still own  their bitcoins but also investing in a mixed basket of alternative coins 

the alt-coins maybe make higher returns % wise but they are also more volatile 

[impulse]

16 hours ago, speedtripler said:

bitcoin owners are not all switching to ethereum  ,the total market cap is growing exponentially 

 

The problem being, of course, that with virtually no barrier to entry and nothing tangible behind them, the number of alternatives can always grow faster than the funds chasing them.  It may take a few years for the technology to allow any pimply kid in his Mom's basement (okay, that's an exaggeration) to offer up their own version, but the stampede has started, and it's picking up steam.

 

You got in early on a Ponzi scheme.  It started out as a great idea- an alternative currency.  But it's been hijacked by quick buck artists.   Even Bernie Madoffs early investors made a killing- if they got out in time.

 

Edit:  BTW, I'd love to see a crypto currency that's tied to a basket of other commodities, like gold, USD, Euros, copper, and others.  Perhaps with different baskets according to the investor's tastes.  As they stand now, they're just a speculative play and not very useful as a "currency".

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by impulse

[SmartJoe]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Edit:  BTW, I'd love to see a crypto currency that's tied to a basket of other commodities, like gold, USD, Euros, copper, and others.  Perhaps with different baskets according to the investor's tastes.  As they stand now, they're just a speculative play and not very useful as a "currenc

Actually it exists :

https://www.dgx.io/

 

But I think Ether and bitcoin are right now useful and some people have this feeling too. Just check who is in the entethalliance EEA, there are some small entities JPMORGAN - ING -  TOYOTA- MICROSOFT - INTEL - NATIONAL BANK OF CANADA - CREDIT SUISSE - UBS - THOMSON -SAMSUNG... and many others.

OOOOh forgot to list...  DELOITTE,  you now DELOITTE from the big four, the biggest accounting firm and financial advisory service in the world. 

This is indeed a successful ponzi !

 

But may be you're a very smart person...   :)

 

http://fortune.com/2017/02/28/ethereum-jpmorgan-microsoft-alliance/

https://entethalliance.org/members/

 

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by SmartJoe

[impulse]

36 minutes ago, SmartJoe said:

Actually it exists :

https://www.dgx.io/

 

But I think Ether and bitcoin are right now useful and some people have this feeling too. Just check who is in the entethalliance EEA, there are some small entities JPMORGAN - ING -  TOYOTA- MICROSOFT - INTEL - NATIONAL BANK OF CANADA - CREDIT SUISSE - UBS - THOMSON -SAMSUNG... and many others.

OOOOh forgot to list...  DELOITTE,  you now DELOITTE from the big four, the biggest accounting firm and financial advisory service in the world. 

 

But may be you're a very smart person...   :)

 

http://fortune.com/2017/02/28/ethereum-jpmorgan-microsoft-alliance/

https://entethalliance.org/members/

 

 

I don't happen to believe my interests in crypto currencies as a small investor are in sync with the likes of JP Morgan, or Microsoft.  I think 2008 proved that.

 

Of course they're interested and eager to invest.  There are vast amounts of money to be siphoned off made.  Getting away from those parasites is a big part of the attraction of crypto currencies.  But here they are, with their hands in our collective pockets once again.

 

dgx.io is tied to gold.  Only gold.  Where's the hedge?  Still speculative.  And not without counter-party risks of holding a piece of digital paper claiming ownership of some metal I'll never see.  If they go bankrupt (or get hacked), you figure you'll ever see that specific chunk of ingot your digits are tied to?  You and I will be far, far down the queue.

 

Edit:  BTW, I'm still eager to find a crypto currency that actually functions as a currency and not mostly a vehicle for speculators...

 

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by impulse

[SmartJoe]

32 minutes ago, impulse said:

I don't happen to believe my interests in crypto currencies as a small investor are in sync with the likes of JP Morgan, or Microsoft.  I think 2008 proved that.

I am not sure you really understand how a cryptocurrency works. Lesson is learned from 2008 and this is the main reason bitcoin and Ether are here. Banks cant steal money from our pockets as you are your own bank with those currencies.  Those crypto have ( soon for Ether) a fixed issuance... No national bank to print a load of new banknotes at will. 

Crypto are a way for the poor to have access to an account without asking a permission to a bank or a governement. Never heard about bitpesa ? https://www.bitpesa.co/ It works so well in africa and people can trade and exchange values without paying 30% to the middle man.

 

Btw what s wrong with speculation ?  it is just the hope you clever enougth to make the good choice. Everything in life is speculation. You want to study because you speculate on your futur job, When you buy your house you speculate on the price you are going to sell it when you need to.   Even when you speak you speculate on your effect over people listening. Speculation is life.

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, SmartJoe said:

Btw what s wrong with speculation ?  it is just the hope you clever enougth to make the good choice. Everything in life is speculation. You want to study because you speculate on your futur job, When you buy your house you speculate on the price you are going to sell it when you need to.   Even when you speak you speculate on your effect over people listening. Speculation is life.

 

Speculation has its place.  Paying next month's rent and for a visit to the doctor isn't one of them.  And there are times when the curve is so obviously a bubble that it's time to get back into currency.  Real estate in 2007 was a great example.  Bitcoin last week is another.  Hard to do if you're speculating on "currency".  Which means it's not a currency.  It's a bet.  That's not how the doctor or the rent gets paid.

 

If I bought $20,000 in Bitcoin Friday a week ago, how much would it have been worth yesterday?  How much when my rent's due at the end of the month?

 

The problem with "being clever" is that no matter how clever you are, the deck is stacked in favor of the house.  Which is why I hate to see the JP Morgans of the world involved.  They don't pay for all that real estate and all those bonuses without siphoning off a chunk of everything they touch.  

 

They'll leverage it, sell derivative products, write insurance against those derivatives going south if the price of Bitcoin collapses (or any other commodity they can make a buck on)  We'll see 2008 all over again when it collapses, and everybody learns that so much has been siphoned off for bonuses that nobody can cover the Bitcoin losses and all the derivative products that have each Bitcoin $$$ leveraged by 100.  Just like they leveraged real estate prices in the 2000's. 

 

[SmartJoe]

Dont mistake an everyday currency for a currency store of value. They have each their own utilities.

 

Bitcoin may varies everyday but in the long run it is the best asset. It has passed throught events like last week may be 40 times since 2008 and each time recover to reach a new all time high. People preaching each dip  "I TOLD U BITCOIN IS DEAD" feel so stupid now.  Bitcoin is secure. With crypto the deck is NOT in favor of the house it is in your hands.

 

Ask people from India or Venezuela what happen when the bank decide your banknote has no value today. Ask a Cypriot how it feels when the governement decide to take you money directly from the bank. They cant touch Bitcoin. Bitcoin is worth according the supply and demand only, from 0.05 cents in 2009 to $2400 now. 

 

 

[seancbk]

41 minutes ago, impulse said:

1 hour ago, SmartJoe said:

Btw what s wrong with speculation ?  it is just the hope you clever enougth to make the good choice. Everything in life is speculation. You want to study because you speculate on your futur job, When you buy your house you speculate on the price you are going to sell it when you need to.   Even when you speak you speculate on your effect over people listening. Speculation is life.

 

Speculation has its place.  Paying next month's rent and for a visit to the doctor isn't one of them.  And there are times when the curve is so obviously a bubble that it's time to get back into currency.  Real estate in 2007 was a great example.  Bitcoin last week is another.  Hard to do if you're speculating on "currency".  Which means it's not a currency.  It's a bet.  That's not how the doctor or the rent gets paid.

 

If I bought $20,000 in Bitcoin Friday a week ago, how much would it have been worth yesterday?  How much when my rent's due at the end of the month?

 

The problem with "being clever" is that no matter how clever you are, the deck is stacked in favor of the house.  Which is why I hate to see the JP Morgans of the world involved.  They don't pay for all that real estate and all those bonuses without siphoning off a chunk of everything they touch.  

 

They'll leverage it, sell derivative products, write insurance against those derivatives going south if the price of Bitcoin collapses (or any other commodity they can make a buck on)  We'll see 2008 all over again when it collapses, and everybody learns that so much has been siphoned off for bonuses that nobody can cover the Bitcoin losses and all the derivative products that have each Bitcoin $$$ leveraged by 100.  Just like they leveraged real estate prices in the 2000's. 

 

Only a complete idiot would engage in any investment or speculation using cash that they couldn't afford to lose.  Unfortunately the world is full of complete idiots.

If you need to pay your rent then hold the money for that, if you think you might need money for medical treatment then make sure you have that set aside as well.

If you had bought US$20,000 worth of BTC on Friday a week ago you would have purchased at around $2839 per bitcoin, close to the highest it has ever been.    Since then it has gone down, but the consensus is that in the next few years BTC will likely hit $5000 or more.   If you are trading for quick short term gains you would not have purchased that day.  

Also BTC is not the only crypto worth investing in.  

[lkn]

28 minutes ago, SmartJoe said:

They cant touch Bitcoin. Bitcoin is worth according the supply and demand only, from 0.05 cents in 2009 to $2400 now. 

A 51% consensus can touch Bitcoin, I suggest you read this article for some of the things that were considered after the DAO hack, effectively rewriting history, freezing someone’s funds, etc.: http://www.coindesk.com/understanding-dao-hack-journalists/

 

[lkn]

5 hours ago, impulse said:

Edit:  BTW, I'd love to see a crypto currency that's tied to a basket of other commodities, like gold, USD, Euros, copper, and others.  Perhaps with different baskets according to the investor's tastes.  As they stand now, they're just a speculative play and not very useful as a "currency".

So you want a central bank to control the currency? The lack of this control is basically Bitcoin’s main (and practically only) selling point.

[lkn]

2 hours ago, SmartJoe said:

Actually it exists :

https://www.dgx.io/

This is just a gold ETF that only allow you to buy and sell their shares using a cryptocurrency.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, SmartJoe said:

Dont mistake an everyday currency for a currency store of value. They have each their own utilities.

 

Bitcoin may varies everyday but in the long run it is the best asset. It has passed throught events like last week may be 40 times since 2008 and each time recover to reach a new all time high. People preaching each dip  "I TOLD U BITCOIN IS DEAD" feel so stupid now.  Bitcoin is secure. With crypto the deck is NOT in favor of the house it is in your hands.

 

Ask people from India or Venezuela what happen when the bank decide your banknote has no value today. Ask a Cypriot how it feels when the governement decide to take you money directly from the bank. They cant touch Bitcoin. Bitcoin is worth according the supply and demand only, from 0.05 cents in 2009 to $2400 now. 

 

Bitcoin has been alone in the field, with no competition.  Let's see how it does as the alternatives grow faster than the money chasing crypto currencies.

 

And we'll see how it fares when the effect of hot Chinese money (which is behind the recent gains) hits the wall.  

 

And 8 years into Bernie Madoff and Enron, we heard pretty much identical raves from the people who got in early and made fortunes.

 

Edit: and to seanbck, can you see where the downside risk has surpassed the potential upside?  At $2 a Bitcoin (or $20, or $200) the unlimited upside was appealing.  With the Bitcoin at $2,500 and "consensus" having it maybe go to $5,000 (consensus of vested interests, BTW), the downside risk looks a lot more onerous.  It's just as likely to go back to $200 or $20 as more and more crypto currencies come online  (that's the consensus of one jaded observer without a vested interest, BTW)

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by impulse

[SmartJoe]

8 minutes ago, impulse said:

Bitcoin has been alone in the field, with no competition.

Alone in the field ? are you serious lol ? For sure you dont know  really what you are talking about. 

More than 300 cryptocurrencies are on the table and many cryptos were created in 2010 - 2014 Litecoin Dogecoin Dash Monero... some failed some are really successful, Dash is $170 now, Monero $50 Litecoin $38. Bitcoin has been the best. Ethereum is taking the lead omho but it doesnt matter they have all their utilities.

[SmartJoe]

27 minutes ago, lkn said:

This is just a gold ETF that only allow you to buy and sell their shares using a cryptocurrency.

Yes "Just" this

[impulse]

Just now, SmartJoe said:

Alone in the field ? are you serious lol ? For sure you dont know  really what you are talking about. 

More than 300 cryptocurrencies are on the table and many cryptos were created in 2010 - 2014 Litecoin Dogecoin Dash Monero... some failed some are really successful, Dash is $170 now, Monero $50 Litecoin $38. Bitcoin has been the best. Ethereum is taking the lead omho but it doesnt matter they have all their utilities.

 

All in their infancy, including Bitcoin, which had about 95% of the press- and not generally for good things, either.   You've pretty much made my point that the barrier to entry is low enough that we'll be seeing the opportunities to put money into crypto grow faster then the growth in money chasing crypto.   And they haven't suspended the law of supply and demand.

 

[SmartJoe]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

All in their infancy, including Bitcoin, which had about 95% of the press- and not generally for good things, either.

Lol yes infancy Bitcoin has been around for 8 years. It is a loooooong time in the techno space. The press is pretty good on Bitcoin apart some people talking about something the dont know. Bitcoin is now an official  currency in Japan Singapour and Germany. Soon in Russia and India.  You just made the point your talking about things you dont know.

[vaultdweller0013]

Here is the long term issue I see with bitcoin.

 

The fundamental value of bitcoin is that it can be reliably transferred from one person to another, with (virtually) no chance of double spending.

 

At the same time, it is inherently deflationary with the total number of coins capped. This is almost certainly going to cause the huge swings seen now to continue. These swings make bitcoin poorly suited for transactions as sudden drops could easily mean that a seller goes from a small profit to a big loss on a sale. If a company has deep pockets, that's not an issue, since over time the big ups should average out the big downs. However, a lot of companies will be relying on their immediate cash flow to pay their suppliers, employees, etc.

 

This means that in some regard bitcoin is poorly suited for the very thing that gives it value.

 

Now, as long as bitcoin remains small, this is less of an issue because it wouldn't be a major risk for companies in absolute terms. So, maybe it will settle into a niche and keep its value in the long run, and that point could be above the current prices today.

 

BTW, I am the proud owner of 0.84 BTC, mined as part of a pool at the tail end of when GPU mining was viable. I have some LTC as well from after the ASICs took over bitcoin mining, but I don't think they are worth much. So, I am interested to see where this all ends up. The concept of the blockchain is here to stay, but I'm not sold that bitcoin specifically will hold its value in the long run.

[chingching]

5 hours ago, vaultdweller0013 said:

Here is the long term issue I see with bitcoin.

 

At the same time, it is inherently deflationary with the total number of coins capped. This is almost certainly going to cause the huge swings seen now to continue.

Deflationary, or inflationary doesn't have much to do with volatility.  Deflationary items,  such as elephant ivory,  alcohol in the usa in the 1920's, alcohol between 2pm and 5pm in Pattaya,  etc, will certainly increase in value relative to less deflationary items. Thus bitcoin ( barring any fundamental change in its structure or security) will increase relative to the usa dollar.  

The sharp corrections I believe are caused by bots, or computer programs, If someone bought btc at 2400, and it goes to 2600 he wants to protect his profit, so he sets a sell-stop-limit,  which will sell his bitcoin if the price drops by 10%.   As the price keeps rising his profit keeps increasing, but if bitcoin drops 10% it sells automatically.  As there are thousands upon thousands of these bots working, and the selling prices are all different,  once the price starts falling, it triggers more and more bots, which sell more and more, and the decline in price snowballs,

Those that sold their bitcoin in the recent correction are called "weak hands" , while those that will hold at all costs are called "strong hands" .  With each correction the percentage of weak hands decreases - which means the amount of bitcoins which are not for sale at any price increases,  which should ,  over the long term, make bitcoin more and more valuable.

I was a weak hand for awhile, but it didn't take very long to realize, that if I hadn't sold, but instead waited for a month or two, my profit would be a lot greater.  So now I am a strong hand - BUT not immutably.  I plan to hold thru any hard fork or soft fork. At 4500 I'll seriously consider taking some money off the table. And there are interesting 3rd generation coins coming up  ByteBall is one (GBYTE),  which needs no scaling, has no blockchain, and txs take seconds.  I also like UBIQ, which is an ethereum clone but without any "new" features, and thus more secure.

[SmartJoe]

The problem is taxes when you wan to cash out. Seems not a problem until you really want to do it. Any advices or informations for a farang permanent thai resident ? How is it taxed ?

[speedtripler]

22 hours ago, lkn said:

A 51% consensus can touch Bitcoin, I suggest you read this article for some of the things that were considered after the DAO hack, effectively rewriting history, freezing someone’s funds, etc.: http://www.coindesk.com/understanding-dao-hack-journalists/

 

Do you even know what everyone else here is talking about ??

From the sounds of it ,you are just prattling on without a clue ....

Bitcoin and Ethereum are DIFFERENT  currencys .totally different rules and parameters

who would even mention Bitcoin and " THE DAO HACK " in the same sentence ?

I would be embarrassed if i wrote something as stupid as that in a public forum 

You should probably stop using the  internet before you hurt yourself... 

[lkn]

1 hour ago, speedtripler said:

I would be embarrassed if i wrote something as stupid as that in a public forum 

It’s hard to take you serious when your rebuttal is just personal insults, nonetheless, Bitcoin and Ethereum are based on the same core principles of a blockchain with distributed miners creating the blocks, hence a majority of the miners control the rules for what is a valid block.

 

As long as no-one has a majority, the rules are so that it is in everybody’s interest to comply with the rules, or so you would think, for example there is currently some controversy in the Bitcoin world about miners rejecting proposed upcoming rule changes, and I mentioned the Ethereum issue because they have lived through some very controversial changes where they rolled back transactions.

 

If there is consensus among Bitcoin miners, there is absolutely nothing preventing them from changing the rules so that e.g. they get 1,000 BTC for mining a single block, or to disallow any future transaction that involve any address owned by you, etc.

 

Here’s a short guide on what I am talking about: http://www.coindesk.com/short-guide-bitcoin-forks-explained/

 

Maybe you want a second try on explaining to us why Bitcoin is not controlled by 51% of the miners, and this time without calling me stupid?

Edited June 18, 2017 by lkn

[SmartJoe]

Guy please... Dont speak about what you dont understand correctly or at least be humble.

If miners forks for a stupid idea all users are going to deal the other fork and they have a blockchain worthless in their hands.

 

There is controversy because support is balanced rn on each proposition.