Too late to become a bitcoin millionaire?

[impulse]

5 hours ago, mjnaus said:

Every single currency that exists today is intrinsically worthless. The fact that you refer to crypto currencies as a "pyramid scheme" indicates you either do not know the first thing about these currencies, or you don't know what a pyramid scheme is (or both). 

 

Had a guy tell me the same thing about Enron's business model.  And he was right.  I didn't understand it.  

 

Oh, I knew what they were doing.  (Edit:  Not exactly, and not the scale of it, but conceptually, yes...)   But I just couldn't figure out why it worked.

 

Bitcoin's been around 8 years is it?   That's not much of a history for a currency.  Which is a misnomer, BTW.  It's an investment vehicle (or one could say a gambling vehicle), and a liquid one at that.  But hardly a currency- though I think that was the original intent.  The guys who bought in just before one of the crashes would attest to that....

 

And looking at recent trends, the only words that come to my mind are "yet another bubble in the making".  I just hope we don't have a 10x derivative multiplier that will see the entire economy collapse when the next $100 million or so goes missing, destroying (even temporarily) investor confidence.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by impulse

[mike324]

I predict the value will continue to go up given how uncertain the world has become, especially  how unstable the US is and how hostile it is looking at all countries. More wars can break out in the middle east region as well as North Korea which will push up the value of bitcoins.

[lkn]

28 minutes ago, chingching said:

Among those companies that have joined the Ethereum Ponzi Scheme are:

Microsoft, Intel,  Samsung, ( anyone know where to find a complete list of ethereum alliance members, I would like to see it?  )

But are they buying up ether (coins) as an investment?

 

Or are they rather interested in the technology and what it might allow? As I wrote in an earlier post, the technology is indeed very interesting, but that in itself does not justify the price of the digital goods created by the technology.

 

Cryptocurrencies (or the blockchain concept) may turn out to be really great innovations that will allow new things. But buying bitcoins is not an investment in what the blockchain might enable in the future. On the contrary, if Microsoft, Intel, Samsung, etc. take all the lessons learned from the current experiments and create something new and great, it will replace bitcoin.

Edited May 29, 2017 by lkn

[impulse]

17 minutes ago, mike324 said:

I predict the value will continue to go up given how uncertain the world has become, especially  how unstable the US is and how hostile it is looking at all countries. More wars can break out in the middle east region as well as North Korea which will push up the value of bitcoins.

 

I'd be more inclined to believe that a batch of alternative crypto currencies will hit the market, relieving some of the upward pressure on Bitcoin pricing.  And hopefully take out some of the volatility that makes it unattractive as a functioning currency.  

 

I, for one would hate to go down to the dealer with 12 bitcoins to buy that car, only to find out that I need 18 bitcoins today...   (And yes, I'm using that as a metaphor.  I know you don't go down to the dealer with a pocket full of Bitcoins... You gotta fax them in.)

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by impulse

[chingching]

29 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

 And hopefully take out some of the volatility that makes it unattractive as a functioning currency.  

 

I, for one would hate to go down to the dealer with 12 bitcoins to buy that car, only to find out that I need 18 bitcoins today...   (And yes, I'm using that as a metaphor.  I know you don't go down to the dealer with a pocket full of Bitcoins... You gotta fax them in.)

 

Why would the volatility bother you,  especially, as the historical prices volatility, would make it much more probable that when you go to the car dealer, you will only need 6 btc, not 12.

[anon6596585]

I would be careful with the other newer cryptocurrencys though. 

Right now so many people are seeing this bitcoin train they missed and wanna get on the next big thing. Im sure many other currency will have a ride for a while also but then a major drop. Bitcoin is now a known name and retailers are getting into it online and in real world. 

It's not like every month, more and more countries will accept a new crypto currency and all will have such a rise like bitcoin has.  

I personally believe bitcoin will rise more in the coming years but I doubt it will get above  $4000/coin. My fear is that the transaction fee/mining fee will get too high as it's been slowing climbing in that department too. Yes you can send with low fees but can also take days to get confirmed/sent or weeks. But still better then PayPal. They are the ones i hope lose big because of bitcoin. 

So yes I Think you can still get in on the fun but the massive returns aren't there

[Techno Viking]

Here ya go, just need to find it !!

 

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/i-threw-away-48-million-in-bitcoin-20170528-gwf4jz.html

 

 

[seancbk]

4 hours ago, fishbrando said:

The best way to get into Bitcoin/crypotcurrencies is to start using it in a small way.

 

• First find out how to buy/obtain Bitcoin and learn what a wallet is
• Then find out how to transfer small amounts (maybe 3000 baht worth) to your phone
• Learn to use Bitcoin tools online to see transactions happen
• Then find out who takes bitcoin as payment and figure out how to spend it  
  • There are a few restaurants in Bangkok that take Bitcoin like Soi'Keb and Eat Me
  • Pattaya Beer Garden also is (or was?) a great place to use Bitcoin
• Try moving money in/out of Thailand via Bitcoin vs. using an ATM or bank transfer and note the costs involved
• Use Bitcoin to donate to your favorite charities and causes online
• Learn more about Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies via forums
• Learn about the history of Bitcoin and especially the failure of Mt. Gox
• Watch some videos especially by Andreas Antonopoulous
• Convinced of Bitcoin's utility/worth?  Start investing more into Bitcoin and find out how to safely store large amounts

Using bitcoin to pay for food in Bangkok would be like handing over gold.   

Pay for things with cash and use bitcoin (or other crypto currencies you've researched) to speculate on.    If you make money from your crypto currencies then use that fiat to buy a nice meal.

 

[fishbrando]

Just now, seancbk said:

Using bitcoin to pay for food in Bangkok would be like handing over gold.   

Pay for things with cash and use bitcoin (or other crypto currencies you've researched) to speculate on.    If you make money from your crypto currencies then use that fiat to buy a nice meal.

 

It's more like handing over money.  I suppose people used to use gold coins as money, so yes, in that sense, it is like handing over gold pieces.

 

As I mentioned, this is a way to get started with Bitcoin and to see how it is used, etc.  If you can see the potential and are intrigued, you can decide to invest further.  There's no rush - Bitcoin will still be there next month, next year, etc.

 

The people I know who did well with Bitcoin are the ones who actually started using it for actual transactions early on.  They saw the utility and then they saw the price rise as usage became more widespread so they started investing more money into it.

[fishbrando]

2 hours ago, lkn said:

Nobody is telling us what great new things they can do with their Bitcoin.

• Be your own bank in a global financial network
• Spend your money around the world without anyone's permission but your own
• Keep your money safe from bank failures, government failures, and bail-ins

[Jingthing]

• Be your own bank in a global financial network
• Spend your money around the world without anyone's permission but your own
• Keep your money safe from bank failures, government failures, and bail-ins

If the international financial system melts down the value of bitcoin will be a trivial worry.

[Jingthing]

It's more like handing over money.  I suppose people used to use gold coins as money, so yes, in that sense, it is like handing over gold pieces.
 
As I mentioned, this is a way to get started with Bitcoin and to see how it is used, etc.  If you can see the potential and are intrigued, you can decide to invest further.  There's no rush - Bitcoin will still be there next month, next year, etc.
 
The people I know who did well with Bitcoin are the ones who actually started using it for actual transactions early on.  They saw the utility and then they saw the price rise as usage became more widespread so they started investing more money into it.

That's nice but not necessarily predictive of the future.

[lkn]

2 hours ago, chingching said:

Why would the volatility bother you,  especially, as the historical prices volatility, would make it much more probable that when you go to the car dealer, you will only need 6 btc, not 12.

The big problem with deflation is that nobody wants to spend their money, because if they wait, it’ll be worth more.

 

This is sort of confirmed by this thread, everybody buys only to hold the currency long-term, not to actually do anything with it. That does add value to the bitcoin currency itself, but not to the bitcoin economy.

[seancbk]

59 minutes ago, fishbrando said:

It's more like handing over money.  I suppose people used to use gold coins as money, so yes, in that sense, it is like handing over gold pieces.

 

As I mentioned, this is a way to get started with Bitcoin and to see how it is used, etc.  If you can see the potential and are intrigued, you can decide to invest further.  There's no rush - Bitcoin will still be there next month, next year, etc.

 

The people I know who did well with Bitcoin are the ones who actually started using it for actual transactions early on.  They saw the utility and then they saw the price rise as usage became more widespread so they started investing more money into it.

 

If I hand over 1000 baht for a meal tonight, I can be pretty sure that aside from a bit of inflation in 12 months the 1000 baht I paid for the meal, will still be worth 1000 baht.

However, if you were to hand over 1000 baht worth of bitcoin this evening there is a very real chance that this time next year you would look back and realise you paid 10,000 baht for a meal you ate a year ago. 

I know of someone who (back when btc was still quite cheap) bought a new TV with Bitcoin.   At the time the TV and the BTC he used to buy it were worth about $1000, a few months later the BTC were worth $35,000 (and now would be worth considerably more).   The TV on the other hand hadn't suddenly become worth $35,000, it was still only a $1000 TV.

So, I reiterate, you'd be an idiot if you bough BTC and then used it like cash.
 

[Jingthing]

So it's even more tulip bulbs than tulip bulbs?

[lkn]

1 hour ago, fishbrando said:

• Be your own bank in a global financial network
• Spend your money around the world without anyone's permission but your own
• Keep your money safe from bank failures, government failures, and bail-ins

• How does holding or mining bitcoin make you a bank?
• Who do you currently need to ask for permission to spend your money around the world?
• How exactly is bitcoin safer than an insured bank deposit?

And on a general note about keeping your money safe, most people do not have this problem because they are below the insured limit, but if you are above, there are many ways to mitigate risk.

Edited May 29, 2017 by lkn

[onthesoi]

If too many banks fail at the same time, for eg over extending on bad investments, then insurance will fail also and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down...while bitcoin is not exposed to those risks as it doesnt invest in anything.

[walterego]

I bought $500(AUD) bitcoin in 2011, sold half of them last year and bought more in December of 2016. It is always a good time to buy them but some times are 'more good' than others. There are a limited number of coins, a maximum that can be mined. Eventually they will all be mined out and bought. Currently I am looking at starting to mine them, (though I am a total noob at this and just starting to learn) The value may drop from time to time but it will always rise again and again. I believe that eventually each coin will be worth several 100k each if not more. If you wish to purchase bitcoin let me know. Although I could sell you bitcoin if you want, the easiest and safest way (in my opinion) is to download the 'Mycelium' app for your Android phone (I dont know what would be the best for an Apple phone) use a bitcoin ATM, (I believe there is one in RCA9 but once again always check.

Unfortunately there is a high chance of people ripping you off with f2f bitcoin transactions, bitcoin online wallets are notorious for stealing everyones coins and as btc is mostly untraceable and non refundable, at least for me the safest way is by using mycelium personal android wallet, creating a back up on a micro SD card and hiding it well and doing transactions at established Bitcoin ATMS. All the best!

[lkn]

30 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

If too many banks fail at the same time, for eg over extending on bad investments, then insurance will fail also and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down...while bitcoin is not exposed to those risks as it doesnt invest in anything.

Are you aware that 465 U.S. banks were closed by FDIC following the 2008 financial crisis? Nobody with a deposit of less than the insured amount (currently $250,000) lost any money.

 

Also following the financial crisis, several EU members actually added an unlimited governmental guarantee.

 

So what exactly are you talking about with “too many banks failing”?

[11223344]

What is good forum to talk about cryptocurrencies?

 

I bought DogeCoing I don't know how many years ago, have wallet on my spare hdd but don't know/remember how to use it lol

[11223344]

I installed the wallet and it says "synchronising... 3 years and 24 weeks behind" 

 

does it mean it found the old wallet in my laptop?

[lkn]

I have been asking for a use-case for bitcoins in this thread, and I think I found something (kudos to ThailandLOS for making me think of this).

 

Basically bitcoin makes it easy to profit from currency trading on the black market.

 

The next time you need to transfer money into Thailand, instead of doing a regular bank transfer, you buy BTC in your own country, and then sell them on a Thai bitcoin exchange. If my numbers are correct, you can sell them at a 4-5% premium over the bank’s TT rate. Of course, if everybody starts doing this, the premium will go down (as supply goes up).

 

This does make me wonder, what is the (general) premium paid for USD on the “physical” black market? Presumably it is higher than via bitcoin because the seller takes a higher risk.

 

Also, I should add that currency trading on the black marked is not the killer application that will make bitcoin conquer the world, as majority of currencies are not restricted like the THB.

[walterego]

13 minutes ago, 11223344 said:

I installed the wallet and it says "synchronising... 3 years and 24 weeks behind" 

 

does it mean it found the old wallet in my laptop?

I am quite possibly wrong about this but; maybe. the wallet you have chosen to use has to download the entire blockchain and as you say you have just 'installed' the wallet, so you may be talking about a clean install and the wallet is just getting the blockchain (record of every coin transaction) up to date. Whether or not your coins will be there when it finishes remains to be seen. I hope for you that they are though! Good luck!

[speedtripler]

Bitcoins are a hedge against many things that can happen to conventional finance, akin to holding gold or something else of value and scarcity in case your other investments tank 

 

It is growing in popularity, all around the world, Japan and Korea are paying the highest prices but I think America  (coinbase) reported record breaking new customer registrations last week

 

Bitcoin is secured by  the laws of mathematics, not promises from some government so it cannot be inflated or devalued by unlimited creation (like paper money) 

 

I have been buying cryptocurrencys since 2011 and although there has been volatility they have returned more than all of my other assets combined several fold, imo it's certainly  not "too late" to invest in something as outside the box as cryptocurrencys but don't sell your house because all investments can go down as well as up... 

[walterego]

Lkn- yes bitcoin makes for excellent instant and low cost international fund transfer have someone purchase it in your home and have it in your hand close to  instantly. I have been told it buys excellent washing powder also to get your dirty greys bright as bright can be.

[onthesoi]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Are you aware that 465 U.S. banks were closed by FDIC following the 2008 financial crisis? Nobody with a deposit of less than the insured amount (currently $250,000) lost any money.

 

Also following the financial crisis, several EU members actually added an unlimited governmental guarantee.

 

So what exactly are you talking about with “too many banks failing”?

465 Banks or branches?.... As the distinction is night and day in difference.

 

Recovery in the banking system is only possible if the failures are not too large, to use another example if unemployment is not too high then those working can subsidise those without jobs via welfare, food stamps etc.... But say unemployment reached 90% then the whole system would collapse, banking failures, baillouts, insurance etc only works if the failures or losses are not too great.

 

Bitcoin is not open to these risks, in fact if the big banks started failing big around the world to the extent they could not be bailed out or paid out via insurance then the vaule of bitcoins would go through the roof as people sought safer alternatives for storing transactional wealth.

 

How can a governement offer unlimited guarantees?.... Its nonsense, what exactly would they be paying out with?.... A failed currency?.... They might print more money, quantitve easing, but the payout would be worthless when offset against rocketing inflation.

Edited May 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[ThailandLOS]

2 hours ago, walterego said:

I bought $500(AUD) bitcoin in 2011, sold half of them last year and bought more in December of 2016. It is always a good time to buy them but some times are 'more good' than others. There are a limited number of coins, a maximum that can be mined. Eventually they will all be mined out and bought. Currently I am looking at starting to mine them, (though I am a total noob at this and just starting to learn) The value may drop from time to time but it will always rise again and again. I believe that eventually each coin will be worth several 100k each if not more. If you wish to purchase bitcoin let me know. Although I could sell you bitcoin if you want, the easiest and safest way (in my opinion) is to download the 'Mycelium' app for your Android phone (I dont know what would be the best for an Apple phone) use a bitcoin ATM, (I believe there is one in RCA9 but once again always check.

Unfortunately there is a high chance of people ripping you off with f2f bitcoin transactions, bitcoin online wallets are notorious for stealing everyones coins and as btc is mostly untraceable and non refundable, at least for me the safest way is by using mycelium personal android wallet, creating a back up on a micro SD card and hiding it well and doing transactions at established Bitcoin ATMS. All the best!

Bitcoin mining nowadays is a very hard work and a loosing proposition most of the time  - too many people do it and most of them have more bullets than any of us - these are the ones that complete the blocks and get the dough. In the early days people could actually mine on their home computers and get a decent return - but of course very few had a clue about how this would take off then.

 

The mining community then went over to specialized servers (there was actually a crew doing this in a warehouse outside BKK a few years until the place burned). This became obsolete for most people as hardware requirements increased beyond what any single individual could manage.

 

Nowadays this scene is about cloud computing - you basically rent hardware clusters on the Internet and constantly calculate profitability based on 1) mining rate (which depends on hardware config) 2) rental fee from the provider of the hardware 3) market value of BTC. Then it becomes a constant race of choosing the provider that offers best value (power) for money at the moment. Not very stimulating work with moderate returns unless you have the scale of economics on your side.

 

What is more interesting are the new cryptos which add functionality that bitcoin lacks, e.g. Ethereum that basically allows to place conditions on transfers, i.e. if Chelsea wins Premier League transfer amount x from address (account) A to address B. This opens up for a whole array of use cases - and the value of crypto is exactly based on that, usability and lack of government tampering/taxation/confiscation.

It becomes the fuel of an ecosystem and is already being adopted by corporations like Microft, JP Morgan etc.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by ThailandLOS

[fishbrando]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If the international financial system melts down the value of bitcoin will be a trivial worry.

On the contrary, it may be of supreme importance.

[fishbrando]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's nice but not necessarily predictive of the future.

You can say that about anything, really.  No one can predict the future.

[fishbrando]

12 hours ago, lkn said:

• How does holding or mining bitcoin make you a bank?
• Who do you currently need to ask for permission to spend your money around the world?
• How exactly is bitcoin safer than an insured bank deposit?

And on a general note about keeping your money safe, most people do not have this problem because they are below the insured limit, but if you are above, there are many ways to mitigate risk.

• You can deposit, withdraw, transfer around the world
• Your credit card companies, your banks, and the government (ever try to bring more than $10k across a border?)
• It depends on how much you trust the insurance.  Look at how many insured funds there are in the world.  Is there enough insurance to cover even a fraction of these funds?  Also, if you have a dispute with the government over your taxes (or other financial/criminal matter), they can easily freeze/seize your funds.