Phuket as a full-time home

[madmax2]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

You and your "qualified" accountant (if he/she advised you so) seem to have little idea about the tax laws in Thailand.

A good primer regarding this topic is this: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/52286.0.html right from the horses mouth and even in english.

Start with the first chapters about tax residency and assessable income.

 

You can believe me or not but you don't get a choice to not believe the Revenue Department of Thailand :)

I read the article, i have no income in Australia or Thailand so i do not have to pay tax now in either country, income is money you earn in any financial year, i do not work or earn any money so have no income

My only income i earn is the the interest i make on my bank accounts tax is paid on my bank accounts which is automatically deducted from my bank accounts in both countries where i have these accounts

[Jimi007]

45 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Allow me to explain to you one last time.

 

1. There is nothing like a "residential visa" or "residents visa".

2. You are on a Non-O visa based on retirement which has nothing to do with taxes.

3. To determine if you are a resident in Thailand for tax purposes, the ONLY thing that counts is if you spend at least 180 days in a given year in the country. NOTHING ELSE. Not your visa, not if you are already taxed somewhere else, not your citizenship, not your gender and not the color of your pants. You stay in Thailand for that amount of time, therefor you are a resident as far as the tax law is concerned. If you like it or not.

4. Lot's of people have a "Non-O" visa. You know the full name? Non-Immigrant O-A. The first part means it's a temporary visa, temporary permission of stay, you are not immigrating to Thailand. You neither have permanent residency nor citizenship. *Everything* else is temporary.

5. You can be fully taxed on foreign derived income that you bring into Thailand (unless excempt because of e.g. DTA).

6. I'd really advise you to read the link I posted earlier and educate yourself. Just to avoid running into some ugly issues later on.

According to the link you provided, yes you are considered a resident after 180 days according to Thai law. But under what income is assessable. Item 4, only the dividends or bank interest earned in Thailand is taxable. It also looks like that income would have to be over 30K Baht per year per person or 60 K for a married couple, unless I am reading something incorrectly? I see nothing about foreign holdings... 

 

2.1  Assessable Income 

            Income chargeable to the PIT is called “assessable income”. The term covers income both in cash and in kind. Therefore, any benefits provided by an employer or other persons, such as a rent-free house or the amount of tax paid by the employer on behalf of the employee, is also treated as assessable income of the employee for the purpose of PIT. Assessable income is divided into 8 categories as follows : 

1. income from personal services rendered to employers; 
2. income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered;
3. income from goodwill, copyright, franchise, other rights, annuity or income in the nature of yearly payments derived from a will or any other juristic Act or judgment of the Court; 
4. income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings; 
5. income from letting of property and from breaches of contracts, installment sales or hire-purchase contracts; 
6. income from liberal professions; 
7. income from construction and other contracts of work; 
8. income from business, commerce, agriculture, industry, transport or any other activity not specified earlier.

And by the way, you can apply for Permanent Residence here in Thailand. I do know at least one person who has done it. He has what he calls a red book. It's not easy to get from what I understand. You must be a business owner with a lot invested and be able to speak Thai. I can't remember if you need to read and write it as well. Here is the form: http://www.immigrationbangkok.com/files/visa_forms/tm9.pdf

[madmax2]

14 minutes ago, Jimi007 said:

According to the link you provided, yes you are considered a resident after 180 days according to Thai law. But under what income is assessable. Item 4, only the dividends or bank interest earned in Thailand is taxable. It also looks like that income would have to be over 30K Baht per year per person or 60 K for a married couple, unless I am reading something incorrectly? I see nothing about foreign holdings... 

 

2.1  Assessable Income 

            Income chargeable to the PIT is called “assessable income”. The term covers income both in cash and in kind. Therefore, any benefits provided by an employer or other persons, such as a rent-free house or the amount of tax paid by the employer on behalf of the employee, is also treated as assessable income of the employee for the purpose of PIT. Assessable income is divided into 8 categories as follows : 

1. income from personal services rendered to employers; 
2. income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered;
3. income from goodwill, copyright, franchise, other rights, annuity or income in the nature of yearly payments derived from a will or any other juristic Act or judgment of the Court; 
4. income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings; 
5. income from letting of property and from breaches of contracts, installment sales or hire-purchase contracts; 
6. income from liberal professions; 
7. income from construction and other contracts of work; 
8. income from business, commerce, agriculture, industry, transport or any other activity not specified earlier.

And by the way, you can apply for Permanent Residence here in Thailand. I do know at least one person who has done it. He has what he calls a red book. It's not easy to get from what I understand. You must be a business owner with a lot invested and be able to speak Thai. I can't remember if you need to read and write it as well. Here is the form: http://www.immigrationbangkok.com/files/visa_forms/tm9.pdf

Its really hard to get from what i have read on the Internet a few years ago mate

Speak, read and write Thai and pass a test to the examiners satisfaction

Sing the Thai and royal anthem

own a substantial business here with substantial local investment

Probably have to own and operate a major 5 star resort to qualify

This was a few years ago and they may have made it easier to obtain now, but i doubt it 

[eisfeld]

You don't need to have a substantial business here to apply for permanent residency. In fact you don't need to own any business, least of all a 5 star resort.

 

You can qualify via marriage (humanity category), via employment (work permit for a few years, can be either by being in an executive position with relatively decent salary or "expert" with at least bachelor degree) or via investment category (10M THB in the thai stock market, government bonds etc).

 

Yes you most likely will have to prove written and spoken Thai skills, possibly singing the national anthem. There are a few requirements but it's not impossible.

 

The exact requirements and possible categories are easily found online, no need for speculation.

[eisfeld]

2 hours ago, madmax2 said:

... i have no income in Australia or Thailand ...

... income is money you earn in any financial year, i do not work or earn any money so have no income

 

My only income i earn is ...

You can't at the same time have no income and do have income :)

 

But if your sole income really is only the interest from your funds in your bank accounts in these countries then yes, you are probably not liable for further income taxes in Thailand.

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, Jimi007 said:

But under what income is assessable. Item 4, only the dividends or bank interest earned in Thailand is taxable. It also looks like that income would have to be over 30K Baht per year per person or 60 K for a married couple, unless I am reading something incorrectly? I see nothing about foreign holdings... 

Correct but I think it was not clear before that madmax2 had no other income apart from the interest on his funds in bank accounts. Careful, dividends from foreign sources can still be taxable in Thailand! The comma in the original text seperates "dividends" and "interest on deposits with banks in Thailand" in the list.

[Jimi007]

15 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

You don't need to have a substantial business here to apply for permanent residency. In fact you don't need to own any business, least of all a 5 star resort.

 

You can qualify via marriage (humanity category), via employment (work permit for a few years, can be either by being in an executive position with relatively decent salary or "expert" with at least bachelor degree) or via investment category (10M THB in the thai stock market, government bonds etc).

 

Yes you most likely will have to prove written and spoken Thai skills, possibly singing the national anthem. There are a few requirements but it's not impossible.

 

The exact requirements and possible categories are easily found online, no need for speculation.

I'm sure madmax2 and I both looked at the requirements years ago to obtain Permanent Residence and I went forget it! Not going there or doing that. I also talked to one of the many attorneys I know, actually one that was visiting me here at my house in Rawai and he told me under US law I am a resident of California, tax wise and every otherwise, no matter how long I may stay at my house here in Thailand. I still own property and maintain a residence there as well as vehicles. I vote in my local City and County elections by mail, fax or email. File taxes as well. It was easier for me than most to get my wife a Permanent Residence card for the USA, without even hiring an immigration attorney, I did all the paperwork, which is SUBSTANTIAL! She just got her 10 year Green Card in February, after a year wait in California and a box full of documentation! Plus many different filing fees.... She is now eligible to apply for US citizenship. The goal! Being able to live where ever we want for as long as we want. A US Passport goes a long way to that goal. Of course to become a Thai Citizen, I would have to give up my US Citizenship, no way am I doing that! 

[eisfeld]

3 minutes ago, Jimi007 said:

I'm sure madmax2 and I both looked at the requirements years ago to obtain Permanent Residence and I went forget it! Not going there or doing that. I also talked to one of the many attorneys I know, actually one that was visiting me here at my house in Rawai and he told me under US law I am a resident of California, tax wise and every otherwise, no matter how long I may stay at my house here in Thailand. I still own property and maintain a residence there as well as vehicles. I vote in my local City and County elections by mail, fax or email. File taxes as well. It was easier for me than most to get my wife a Permanent Residence card for the USA, without even hiring an immigration attorney, I did all the paperwork, which is SUBSTANTIAL! She just got her 10 year Green Card in February, after a year wait in California and a box full of documentation! Plus many different filing fees.... She is now eligible to apply for US citizenship. The goal! Being able to live where ever we want for as long as we want. A US Passport goes a long way to that goal. Of course to become a Thai Citizen, I would have to give up my US Citizenship, no way am I doing that! 

You are wise to keep your options to live anywhere you want. We've come all a bit off topic but I think for anyone to consider living in Phuket, it's always good to not burn any bridges and be able to move if needed/wanted.

[Jimi007]

18 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Correct but I think it was not clear before that madmax2 had no other income apart from the interest on his funds in bank accounts. Careful, dividends from foreign sources can still be taxable in Thailand! The comma in the original text seperates "dividends" and "interest on deposits with banks in Thailand" in the list.

Sorry to disagree with your interpretation of statement 4. It is rather a poorly written sentence that we are talking about: 

4.income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings; 

 

It certainly seems to imply by the language; "in Thailand" and it's a run on sentence, that would imply only Thai dividends, interest, etc.

 

[Jimi007]

5 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

You are wise to keep your options to live anywhere you want. We've come all a bit off topic but I think for anyone to consider living in Phuket, it's always good to not burn any bridges and be able to move if needed/wanted.

I agree. You should cover your ass and assets if you want to live here pretty much problem free as I have for 11 years in Rawai alone. It's not for everyone. And the learning curve was pretty steep the first few years! Best wishes to you and our OP who probably found all this somewhat off topic information useful. At least I wish I knew what I know now, years ago. Not sure it would have changed my plan that much, but it would have saved me some headaches!

[DrDave]

1 hour ago, Jimi007 said:

I'm sure madmax2 and I both looked at the requirements years ago to obtain Permanent Residence and I went forget it! Not going there or doing that. I also talked to one of the many attorneys I know, actually one that was visiting me here at my house in Rawai and he told me under US law I am a resident of California, tax wise and every otherwise, no matter how long I may stay at my house here in Thailand. I still own property and maintain a residence there as well as vehicles. I vote in my local City and County elections by mail, fax or email. File taxes as well. It was easier for me than most to get my wife a Permanent Residence card for the USA, without even hiring an immigration attorney, I did all the paperwork, which is SUBSTANTIAL! She just got her 10 year Green Card in February, after a year wait in California and a box full of documentation! Plus many different filing fees.... She is now eligible to apply for US citizenship. The goal! Being able to live where ever we want for as long as we want. A US Passport goes a long way to that goal. Of course to become a Thai Citizen, I would have to give up my US Citizenship, no way am I doing that! 

Jimi, as you said, you would definitely be liable for California income and local taxes because you maintain a residence there and probably hold a valid CA driver's license as well.

I believe that California is somewhat unique in their reluctance to allow their citizens to be free of state income tax liability after they permanently move to another country, even if they no longer own or rent any property in the state. I think it would be wise for any California resident making a permanent move to Thailand to establish residency in another state (preferably one without a state income tax, such as FL) in order to break the connection with California. This is easily done by renting an apartment for one month and obtaining a driver's license in the new state.

[NamKangMan]

 

A quick Google of "Tax Equalization Scheme" should clear up this recent debate.

 

No longer does your geographical location exclude you from being taxed, in more than one country, at the same time. 

[Rimmer]

Multiple baiting and flaming posts have been removed, please stop this personal bickering right now before suspensions are handed out, thank you.

Also please see the attched forum rule that you agreed to when you signed up.

 

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[Old Croc]

Like many people who came to Thailand as a retiree I did my homework first.

Australia has a tax treaty with Thailand which is worth reading for those citizens.

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/859.0.html

 

 

[madmax2]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:38 PM, eisfeld said:

You can't at the same time have no income and do have income :)

 

But if your sole income really is only the interest from your funds in your bank accounts in these countries then yes, you are probably not liable for further income taxes in Thailand.

Interest on a bank account is income, beleive it or not, i made it plain in my posts i do get bank interest and pay tax on that interest in the country its due in, i have not earned a wage or salary for about 13 years now which would be a taxable income in Thailand if i earnt one here or Australia if i earned one their, other types of due taxes i have paid in the country they are due in

 

What you think of my liability for further taxes in Thailand is of no interest to me,you remind me of a bush lawyer in Australia, giving out his free advice in a country pub to fellow drinkers, its taken with a pinch of salt, i classify you as a forum lawyer, same same, nothing you have posted has changed my mind about my tax liabilities

 

I have nothing to worry about as far as undeclared taxes that have not been paid, have you undeclared taxes that you should have paid in Thailand

What is happening here and small business owners should be made aware of is the fact that tax officials are visiting small businesses unannounced and doing a audit, i know someone who's thai wife who runs their business was given a 30,000 baht on the spot fine which they were more than happy to pay

 

Expect a visit to your business in the near future if you have a business and be prepared for these people, if you have paid all your due taxes and can prove it with your business records you have nothing to worry about, unlike a lot of people i have met with small businesses here who have no correct records 

[eisfeld]

I only tried to give you advise and point out your factually wrong statements madmax2, things like stating that you have no income whatsoever and then in the same post saying you do have income (interest as you correctly realized is income). I am *not* a lawyer. Not in the physical world and not on this or any other forum. I am also not a tax advisor or CPA for that matter. I tried to be helpful and sverve the discussion into a more factual and correct direction but I guess that help was unwanted.

 

It's a good advise though that any (not just small) business owner keeps correct books and records. As like in most countries, tax authorities will do random unannounced visits and many small businesses are not doing things the right way. In Thailand and especially Phuket, foreigners also run easily afoul of exceeding what was specified in a work permit and some officials like to take the opportunity to extract some cash. For anyone wanting to move to Phuket it's adviseable that they think hard about their monetary security as it's not as easy to find a good work and stability as is in some other countries.

[KhunHeineken]

I looked a little into this a while ago. I did my own research and also paid for professional advice.  Here are some links that are relevant for Australians living in Thailand, or any other country for that matter.

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/international-tax-for-individuals/going-overseas/lodging-your-tax-return/how-residency-affects-your-tax-return/

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/International-tax-for-individuals/Investing-in-Australia/Interest,-unfranked-dividends-and-royalties/

 

There is a new part in this one that started on the 1st July 2017.  It says 

 

Tell your Australian payer your current overseas address so they can withhold the right rate of tax. If you don't, they may withhold tax at the higher rate of 47% (from 1 July 2017).

 

http://www.treasury.gov.au/Policy-Topics/Taxation/Tax-Treaties/HTML/Income-Tax-Treaties

 

When you click on Thailand you can read this.

 

comprehensive double taxation agreements between Australia and Papua New Guinea and Australia and Thailand covering all forms of income flowing between Australia and those countries. The agreement with Papua New Guinea was signed in Canberra on 24 May 1989 and the agreement with Thailand in Canberra on 31 August 1989

[NamKangMan]

On 10/07/2017 at 8:24 PM, eisfeld said:

Allow me to explain to you one last time.

 

1. There is nothing like a "residential visa" or "residents visa".

2. You are on a Non-O visa based on retirement which has nothing to do with taxes.

3. To determine if you are a resident in Thailand for tax purposes, the ONLY thing that counts is if you spend at least 180 days in a given year in the country. NOTHING ELSE. Not your visa, not if you are already taxed somewhere else, not your citizenship, not your gender and not the color of your pants. You stay in Thailand for that amount of time, therefor you are a resident as far as the tax law is concerned. If you like it or not.

4. Lot's of people have a "Non-O" visa. You know the full name? Non-Immigrant O-A. The first part means it's a temporary visa, temporary permission of stay, you are not immigrating to Thailand. You neither have permanent residency nor citizenship. *Everything* else is temporary.

5. You can be fully taxed on foreign derived income that you bring into Thailand (unless excempt because of e.g. DTA).

6. I'd really advise you to read the link I posted earlier and educate yourself. Just to avoid running into some ugly issues later on.

 

I concur.

 

"Foreign Resident" (for taxation purposes) doesn't only mean you are granted "residency" of another country, but also that you have been outside your country of citizenship, for a period of time in which that country then deems you to be a "foreign resident" for taxation purposes. 

[madmax2]

Best to do what i do, use a fully qualified accountants, i have 2, one in Thailand and one in Australia and rely on their qualified opinions, which you pay for, no good professional advice is free

Or you can read up on the subject with all the different opinions about what is the correct way to go and form your own opinion of what is right and what is wrong and hope you are lucky in your choice of opinions

 

Or go to a bar for a opinion, or listen to expert opinions on a internet forum, These people at best worked as bookkeepers at some time in their lives, and like to turn around what ever you post to suite themselves, it seems its the only interest they have in life, disagreeing with other people for the fun of it

 

If you believe everything your told at the local bar, you will believe everything you are told by internet forum experts as well, except the internet is a fantasy land for people hiding behind their computers, and always will be and they would not try to feed you the same B/S in a bar face to face

They like to be completely anonymous and certainly will not pay any bills or fines you could end up with by believing their misguided opinions 

 

Believe what or who ever you want to but if it could end up costing you money make sure you get a opinion from a fully qualified and up to date accountant for peace of mind