Implications of a retirement visa for Winter visits only.

[SunsetT]

I have been wintering for 6 months in Thailand (early October to early April)  for many years on Tourist visas but I will be UK retired at 65 before next Winter. I wish to continue this routine but am now weighing up my visa options and contemplating getting an extension of stay based on  retirement, or whatever you call it. I  am aware of the financial requirements but I would like advice please on the implications and complications of doing this in my situation, e.g., the best time to apply for it after I arrive in October to avoid its annual renewal, which Im told falls slightly earlier every year, falling while I am in the UK during the Summer, or whether, if it did, it could/would be delayed anyway until I returned to Thailand in October. Also would a 1k thb 'leave of absence', I forget what its officially called, cover my 6 mths in the UK? Also would holding this retirement status in Thailand make me'officially'  ineligible for UK pension increases or would I have to hide this from the UK authorities?

 

As other alternatives to SETVs or an METV, can I now at 65 apply and get each year either a multiple-entry 'O' or 'O-A' Non-immigrant visa from London, or do they only issue single-entry visas to convert to retirement?

 

All relevant info. and good advice will be much appreciated. Thank you.

[bangkokbanjo]

Im looking forward to advice as im doing the same thing but from the united states. If i get a retirement visa or longstay oa visa here, that becomes effective in october when i arrive, it will expire before i return again the following october.

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[gk10002000]

I believe I will soon be doing a similar type of thing.  Do the retirement extension, leave Thailand for a hop over to Cambodia after 88 days, then back to Thailand for another 88 or so, then back to the States.  So basically be in country about 6 months of each year, but leaving before 90 days would mean I would not have to do the 90 day reporting, which to me is a pain. Get a re-entry permit for the first 88 days or, maybe a multi re-entry permit.  The devil is in the details.

 

  I will be doing the income verification method.  My understanding is as long as I get back to Thailand before the one year extension has expire from when I first got it, it will be simpler to extend it another year, instead of starting the visa over again each time.  My thoughts anyways

[briley]

Depends - as usual.

 

Personally I found that having a retirement visa is easier than getting a multi entry tourist or non-O visa - and now it seems to be impossible to get a multi entry visa.

 

Assuming you are here for more than  90 days then:

 

Benefits -

• no cost of the visa (saving around 4,000 Baht), but you do need to pay 1,900 extension and 1000 re-enty fee.
• you do not need to do a border run, but have to go to immigration for one day each year.
• proof of income or 800,000 in the Bank, depends if you can afford the 800,000. I went that way after having to pay UK government some 2,500 for a letter for a few years. Bank deposit is easier and cheaper. Of course you can lose (or gain) on the exchange rate. Other nationalities find the letter easier than UK nationals.
• 90 day reporting by post is a doddle and the internet version appears to be up again.
• if they change the rules it is unlikely they will cancel the retirement visa but could make long stay on a tourist visa harder.

But (and this is big) make sure you extension renewal date is convenient. I came on a double O visa, when on the 2nd one I did the conversion to retirement so my renewal is mid February. Since you can do it 45 days before and I am always in Thailand January February I have no problems

 

(I know I have used the wrong phrase for lots of things but I think everyone knows what I mean)

 

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, SunsetT said:

As other alternatives to SETVs or an METV, can I now at 65 apply and get each year either a multiple-entry 'O' or 'O-A' Non-immigrant visa from London, or do they only issue single-entry visas to convert to retirement?

• If you are in receipt of state pension getting a ME Non 'O' is very easy to get, but you will have to leave/re-enter every 90 days.
• If you have the equivalent of 800K in the bank in the UK or an income greater than 65K you can get a ME Non 'O-A', but you will need to have a medical and police check done too, The advantage to this visa will be no border runs and if you time next years entry before the visa expires you'll get two visits to Thailand from this visa.
• If you are only going to be living in Thousand for 6 months per year I wouldn't bother with an extension of stay as it might be difficult to time the renewals each year, and you have to tie up 800K in Thailand or provide proof of income greater than 65K or a combo of the two.

 

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, SunsetT said:

Also would holding this retirement status in Thailand make me'officially'  ineligible for UK pension increases or would I have to hide this from the UK authorities?

You don't really have 'retirement status' as such. It is a 1 year permit to stay that must be renewed each year. I don't know, but I would have thought that if you are in the UK for 6 months per year it would have no affect on your state pension etc.

[IMA_FARANG]

It should be possible to get a retirement visa/annual extension in Thailand that is renewable every year in October of each year.

Use a one year exit re-entry stamp, which would be good for the one year period of your retirement visa/extension  just in case you need to suddenly return to your home country for personal reasons.

With a little common sense and careful planning of your schedule it should be completely possible to do this.

I for example, have a monthly pension from the U.S. that I sent by direct deposit to my Bangkok Bank account every month from the U.S Social Security (old age pension).

Depending on the pension rules in your home country, you could be eligible for such a pension, and if you wished live the cold winter months in Thailand each year, renewing your annual retirement visa extension each year while in Thailand.

It is certainly possible. You would, of course need to do 90 day reporting while living in Thailand, but that can be managed easily.

With a little pre-planning and some common sense it is all possible.

[YetAnother]

32 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

I for example, have a monthly pension from the U.S. that I sent by direct deposit to my Bangkok Bank account every month from the U.S Social Security (old age pension).

i use exactly the same process; works well; that account was harder to setup tho

[james6]

BUT being out of UK for a period of six months would mean no yearly increase in pension along with other things RULES tightened up and made to fleece the expats..

[wgdanson]

1 hour ago, james6 said:

BUT being out of UK for a period of six months would mean no yearly increase in pension along with other things RULES tightened up and made to fleece the expats..

The last pension increase was 3 quid a week, not worth worrying about.

 

[Suradit69]

12 hours ago, SunsetT said:

the best time to apply for it after I arrive in October to avoid its annual renewal, which Im told falls slightly earlier every year, falling while I am in the UK during the Summer,

You can apply for the extension of stay during the last 30 to 45 days of the permission to stay you received on a non-imm O visa entry. If you entered on 1 October, you could apply for the extension between from November  to the end of December. Up to 45 days early at some offices, otherwise as much as 30 days before permission to stay ends.

 

Regardless of when you apply,  the extension of stay begins when your 90 day permission ends, so in this example your 90 day entry would end near the end of December, which is when your one year extension of stay starts. The renewal date for the extension would remain the same each year ... it doesn't fall earlier each year. So you would have a renewal date each year, in this example, near the end of December and you could apply up to 30 to 45 days before that.

 

Remember on an extension of stay you will need a re-entry permit before you return home so that your extension would remain valid when you come back to Thailand.

 

If you first enter on a non-imm O-A, you have one year from the date it was issued to enter as often as you like. If you exit and re-enter before it expires, you'd get a new one year permission to stay. You would need a re-entry permit, but still no extension of stay during the second year.  You could then start doing annual extensions of stay, as above, as much as 30 to 45 days before that permission expired.

 

 

[Orton Rd]

56 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

The last pension increase was 3 quid a week, not worth worrying about.

 

It will be a worry if they strip expats of their personal tax allowance, they looked at it already. That would reduce income of pensioners by 20% on all income

[steve73]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

The last pension increase was 3 quid a week, not worth worrying about.

 

Maybe not for one year, but over say 10 years that will have compounded up to over 40 quid a week.  Certainly enough for a good night out (or in!!)

[Laza 45]

10 hours ago, elviajero said:

• If you are in receipt of state pension getting a ME Non 'O' is very easy to get, but you will have to leave/re-enter every 90 days.
• If you have the equivalent of 800K in the bank in the UK or an income greater than 65K you can get a ME Non 'O-A', but you will need to have a medical and police check done too, The advantage to this visa will be no border runs and if you time next years entry before the visa expires you'll get two visits to Thailand from this visa.
• If you are only going to be living in Thousand for 6 months per year I wouldn't bother with an extension of stay as it might be difficult to time the renewals each year, and you have to tie up 800K in Thailand or provide proof of income greater than 65K or a combo of the two.

 

You can get an OA non immigration visa.. multiple entry.. come and go as you like... apply in your own country.. no $$ required in Thailand..  if you time it right you can leave the country and return just before the first year is up and get another full year.. but you loose your re-entries.. if you want to go out and come back in the 2nd year you have to buy a re-entry.. 1k Bt.. I think...  I have been doing this for years from Australia..

[SpokaneAl]

We travel from the US to Thailand each October and stay until mid or late April and have been doing this for five years now - this year will be number six.

 

Each year I apply and obtain a non imm o-a multi entry visa from the LA Thai Consulate via the US Postal Service. I find this to be an easy solution for me, and ensures I only need to deal with the local Thai immigration office once or twice (depending on timing and precise length of our stay) for the 90 day reporting, and of course the initial notification when we first arrive.

 

My wife enters and departs Thailand on her Thai passport.

 

While some will say that I could avoid that annual visa fee, I like doing this because I do not want to be beholden to travel and arrival dates, border runs etc.

[Laza 45]

20 minutes ago, SpokaneAl said:

We travel from the US to Thailand each October and stay until mid or late April and have been doing this for five years now - this year will be number six.

 

Each year I apply and obtain a non imm o-a multi entry visa from the LA Thai Consulate via the US Postal Service. I find this to be an easy solution for me, and ensures I only need to deal with the local Thai immigration office once or twice (depending on timing and precise length of our stay) for the 90 day reporting, and of course the initial notification when we first arrive.

 

My wife enters and departs Thailand on her Thai passport.

 

While some will say that I could avoid that annual visa fee, I like doing this because I do not want to be beholden to travel and arrival dates, border runs etc.

My thoughts exactly.. that is why I do it too... easy..  

[VBF]

5 hours ago, james6 said:

BUT being out of UK for a period of six months would mean no yearly increase in pension along with other things RULES tightened up and made to fleece the expats..

If you're keeping your residence in UK, whether owned or rented, and all indications are that you really do live in UK,  which the OP does, I don't see why it matters. Assuming that your pension is paid into your bank account, and you're still paying Council Tax, utility bills etc, then you're just on holiday.

 

It would be different if you were being paid Benefits where you have to "sign on" regularly. A friend of mine is in that situation where if he leaves the UK for more than 30 days he loses housing  benefits but a pension is different.

 

Another thought:

If you ensure that your periods IN the UK are slightly over 6 months each time, then you're clearly living in UK and holidaying in Thailand rather than the reverse

Edited June 4, 2017 by VBF
Extra comment

[NancyL]

52 minutes ago, SpokaneAl said:

We travel from the US to Thailand each October and stay until mid or late April and have been doing this for five years now - this year will be number six.

 

Each year I apply and obtain a non imm o-a multi entry visa from the LA Thai Consulate via the US Postal Service. I find this to be an easy solution for me, and ensures I only need to deal with the local Thai immigration office once or twice (depending on timing and precise length of our stay) for the 90 day reporting, and of course the initial notification when we first arrive.

 

My wife enters and departs Thailand on her Thai passport.

 

While some will say that I could avoid that annual visa fee, I like doing this because I do not want to be beholden to travel and arrival dates, border runs etc.

 

30 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

My thoughts exactly.. that is why I do it too... easy..  

No one has mentioned where they plan to live in Thailand.  The immigration office in Chiang Mai can be a difficult office for new retirees to deal with if they want to "convert" a visa exempt entry or tourist visa to retirement visa status.   And the annual retirement extension, (i.e. often called "renewing the retirement visa" is usually a five hour process involving arrival for early morning queueing.  Many retirees end up paying visa agents for a task that is a breeze in other provinces.

 

Thus, a retiree is well advised to obtain a O-A visa in their home country before starting retirement in Chiang Mai.  As described in this thread, it's possible to obtain two years of life from this visa and have minimal contact with the CM Imm. office during this time.

[smotherb]

Although I live here all year, I see no problem spending six moths--October to April--here on a retirement extension. The extension is good for one year; consequently, the extension only gets one day earlier each year--for example, my current retirement extension is good from March 20, 2017 to March 19, 2018. You could get a 90 day non-O in the UK for B1900 or just fly here and get a 30 day visa exempt and can go to a consulate out of country to get a 90 day non-O for B1900 plus expenses. Either way, that could give you a potential 90 years of using the retirement extension if you waited the 90 day non-O period before applying for the retirement extension and loosing only one day a year.  To get the one year retirement extension, you would pay B1900 and a B1000 re-entry permit. You would have to go to immigration for your 90 day reports when here more than 89 days, but you do not need to report when you are out of Thailand because the 90 day count is based on your last arrival date.

[Tofer]

You will be maintaining your UK residency if you spend 6 months in the UK in a year, hence you will retain your full UK pension rights.

 

If you wanted to declare non resident for other tax reasons, you are not allowed to visit UK more than 90 days / ann. Also if you maintain a residence in UK, or even the use of a room in a family or friends house where you keep anything belonging to you and stay for just one night on your return you are automatically deemed resident.

[TerryLH]

"The extension is good for one year; consequently, the extension only gets one day earlier each year--for example, my current retirement extension is good from March 20, 2017 to March 19, 2018."

 

My extension is, and has been, the same date for the last 23 extensions.

 

[skorts]

The determination of UK Residency if you spend more than 183 days outside of the UK is not straightforward. As well as the Automatic Overseas and Automatic UK Tests there are the Sufficient Ties Tests. HMRC have a 104 page manual covering this, including decision trees to help you determine your Residency Status - they are pretty easy to use and a good starting point. If you do not meet the Automatic Overseas or Automatic UK Tests then the number of Sufficient Ties determines how many days you can spend in the UK each tax year without being classed as UK resident. The staying with close relatives Accommodation tie requires you to stay with a close relative(s) for 16 nights in a tax year. Alternatively, if you have accommodation available to you for a period of 91 days and stay there just 1 night this would be classed as an Accommodation tie. This could be a property you own but you do not have to own it for it to qualify. This is a complex area and worth taking advice from an accountant/tax adviser who specialises in UK Residency etc. We have just been through this process ourselves.


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[VBF]

36 minutes ago, skorts said:

The determination of UK Residency if you spend more than 183 days outside of the UK is not straightforward. As well as the Automatic Overseas and Automatic UK Tests there are the Sufficient Ties Tests. HMRC have a 104 page manual covering this, including decision trees to help you determine your Residency Status - they are pretty easy to use and a good starting point. If you do not meet the Automatic Overseas or Automatic UK Tests then the number of Sufficient Ties determines how many days you can spend in the UK each tax year without being classed as UK resident. The staying with close relatives Accommodation tie requires you to stay with a close relative(s) for 16 nights in a tax year. Alternatively, if you have accommodation available to you for a period of 91 days and stay there just 1 night this would be classed as an Accommodation tie. This could be a property you own but you do not have to own it for it to qualify. This is a complex area and worth taking advice from an accountant/tax adviser who specialises in UK Residency etc. We have just been through this process ourselves.


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That's why I suggested to the OP to spend just over 6 months a year INSIDE the UK. (Post ID 17) So therefore if he lives, say 185 days in UK, even in a Leap year he'd only have 181 days out of UK. It's important to consider travel days as I think (and please check) that a day counts as outside UK if one is outside at midnight of that day no matter if one is in another country or en route.

Edited June 6, 2017 by VBF

[mikebell]

On 2017-6-4 at 8:07 AM, james6 said:

BUT being out of UK for a period of six months would mean no yearly increase in pension along with other things RULES tightened up and made to fleece the expats..

I am a Brit.  I foolishly did the 'right' thing and told the authorities I was living in Thailand.  My pension (State) has been frozen now for the last nine years.

 

If you spend 6 months a year in Britain, however, your pension is unfrozen; your NHS benefits secure.  + you get a Cold weather grant?

[mikebell]

Re my post above - I did not read the two posts above.  I had no idea the process was as complicated.

[sandyf]

Once you are 65 you can get a 12 month multi entry Non O visa based on your state pension, I am assuming from your post that you will get it at 65 before the age goes up.

This would be the better bet, If you stay under the 180 days and time it right you need only leave the country once during your stay.

Its no big deal, I was here for the first 6 years on a Non O, just getting another visa each time I went back to the UK. It makes a change to have a couple of days in the neighbouring countries.

People will argue that the cost of the visa at £145 is a lot more than an extension but its not really as it avoids the hassle of finances for the extension and dealing with immigration.

[IMA_FARANG]

If you get a retirement visa you can renew it annually every year.

It does NOT change it's extension date every year.

Therefore if you qualify for a retirement visa/extension in October, your next renewal will be in October one year from the date of your original retirement visa/extension.

In order to leave the country, and NOT void your one year visa/extension you should purchase a exit re-entry permit which will have the same one year period as the retirement visa/extension as your retirement visa/extension.

When in Thailand you will need to do 90 day reporting but you will be exempted from that 90 day reporting if out of Thailand.

Your 90 day reporting clock will start again when you enter Thailand, and countdown to 90 days from the entry date.

You will be responsible for maintaining the financial requirements for the one year retirement visa/extension by maintain  a Thai bank account with the required amount  of money in even if you are out of the country.

There is no requirement you live in Thailand the entire year, but you simply must return each year to renew the visa, extension before it expires each year.

As I said above, use the exit re-entry permit to keep the retirement visa,yearly extension valid while out of the country and return in time for the annual renewal.

That  is the only Thai requirements, but If your home country has different rules, that is not a Thai concern for you.

I had a friend form the Netherlands, a retired Dutch Navy officer who for years spent the winter months in the Netherlands in Thailand and then in the summer months went back to the Netherlands to live.

He passed away a couple  of years ago in his 90's

What you are suggesting is possible according to Thai rules, but as I said I can't say what the laws are in your home country.

 

 

 

[baansgr]

Just now, wgdanson said:

The last pension increase was 3 quid a week, not worth worrying about.

 

The triple lock system guarantees a minimum increase od 2.5%....compounded over the years it is actually worth worrying about.

[Tofer]

21 hours ago, VBF said:

That's why I suggested to the OP to spend just over 6 months a year INSIDE the UK. (Post ID 17) So therefore if he lives, say 185 days in UK, even in a Leap year he'd only have 181 days out of UK. It's important to consider travel days as I think (and please check) that a day counts as outside UK if one is outside at midnight of that day no matter if one is in another country or en route.

Unless the rules have changed, the day you arrive and the day you depart do not count as days in UK.

 

I knew a guy who worked 3 days a week in UK but was non resident as this only registered as one day because he flew in from Jersey every week to work. The tax saved paid for his fuel in his plane.

[VBF]

59 minutes ago, Tofer said:

Unless the rules have changed, the day you arrive and the day you depart do not count as days in UK.

 

I knew a guy who worked 3 days a week in UK but was non resident as this only registered as one day because he flew in from Jersey every week to work. The tax saved paid for his fuel in his plane.

Quite possibly. That was why I said "please check" in my first post because it's a long time since I've been personally involved in this scenario, and things do change. The general principle of my suggestion still holds good I believe.