SURVEY: Should teacher's credentials be examined carefully?

[tomwct]

I'm now retired from a large Thai university in Isan. We had an Englishman who interviewed with us 3 years prior and he had a bachelor's and masters degree. We didn't hire him, but we told him another position would be coming up the following year. 7 months later the job came up and submitted his resume again. Now he had a PHD from an unknown school in Australia in Psychology.

I told my boss somethings wrong. We looked up this school and it was an internet school who sold degrees. This guy got a

PHD for 5000 Aussie Dollars in 90 days. We checked further on his Masters degree and again online school. We declined him for an 

interview and notified the other large universities in NE Thailand to look out for this individual. Not qualified for anything.

[wakeupplease]

The old saying is true you get what you pay for. Anyone who takes a job as an English teacher here is on to a hiding to nothing. They will be hated by the other teachers who always think they know better but never seen outside of the border. They will like the rest of the Farangs be treated like a secondhand citizen. They will be paid peanuts so why bother?

 

If the powers that be want a 4 as they call it invest in quality, not rejects or runaways.

 

Invest is another word not understood here

 

3rd/4th world and always will be.

[Gary A]

The professor (really) taught in China but they would not renew his contract. When teaching in Bangkok, his favorite subject was his life experiences. The kids did not understand English and could not understand him so naturally they didn't like him and they learned nothing. The kids in the unqualified teacher's class actually learned English and liked their teacher. The old Bangkok hands likely know who I am talking about but since both teachers have passed away. I can talk about them.

 

My wife's nephew goes to a Christian school and after several years he speaks no English. Looking at some of his quizzes tells me that his English teacher isn't proficient either. They spend a lot of time on grammatical modifiers. They would be way ahead teaching them basic English, meaning reading phonetically and actually speaking. The rules are way over their heads and simply wasted time.  Proper English should only be taught in universities and colleges.

[Artisi]

8 hours ago, kwilco said:

Sorry but that is purely subjective anecdote and cannot be taken seriously.

 

The fact is that the LAW is not only not being enforced, but it is also an ASS.

your approach does not address any of the issues - you just claim one teacher to be "better" in your eyes than another.

Not that difficult to tell the difference, unless of course you are "highly" qualified and consider yourself as a gift to the teaching profession above everyone else. 

[KKr]

Kindly elaborate the Survey questions:
is this about foreign teachers, or also about Thai teachers.
Is this about teaching credentials?
Is this about a background check for child abuse or other criminal behavior.
Thereafter, maybe, the survey will have some value.
 

[Gary A]

A good friend of mine and I have a Thai friend who was an interpreter at the Udon US Air Force base. He spoke excellent English even including a lot of slang. We were having a few beers with him when the head local English teacher joined us. That Thai English teacher asked us if we were willing to come to his school a day or two a week to talk to his students. I immediately declined because I am a selfish old fart, but my farang friend was interested. That head English teacher could NOT speak English. There was no pay involved except that he would make our visas much easier. If not for our old interpreter friend we would have had no idea what the teacher was trying to talk about. I did feel sorry for the school kids because they had no chance to learn English. The school did hire two guys from Cameroon. Their native tongue was French. That was a total waste of scarce money. They didn't last long either but they had the credentials. It's simply a hard fact that they cannot afford to hire competent English teachers according to the rules. That's why I am opposed for English teachers having to have a degree. There are retired farangs who are genuinely interested in working with the Thai youngsters. Those guys would be far better teachers than some of the riff raff who only teach because that is the only way they can stay here in Thailand.

[wakeupplease]

6 hours ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

I have kept up with all the requirements for teaching English in schools here in Thailand over the years. I am now, in the eyes of the Thai govt 100% qualified and legal.....and I am in a real minority I can tell you. I wouldnt like to even guess the amount of farang teaching here that dont have much more than a high school diploma. The numbers would be high. To be fully legal here now to teach (according to OBEC rules) you need to have a verifiable degree in education OR a verifiable degree AND a post grad dip in education. I am the ONLY farang I know in my area that has met these requirements. A TEFL certificate is all well and good but it doesnt really prepare you for the realities of teaching here. I think the degree requirement is fair but the salaries arent high enough....and thats putting it mildly. 

 

If there was a a genuine check up of all those teaching in schools here (wont happen too much money greases palms) and laws were enforced, thousands of farangs would have to go. Many are here working on other visas, though the eternal tourist visa and 'ed' visa routes arent as easy as there were. I have seen many have to leave because of this, some were good people, many are scumbags.

 

I am all for reasonable standards. I have tried to keep up with the ever changing goalposts the Thai govt throws at foreign teachers here. At the moment my head is above water. The dream though of having all farang teachers with ed degrees and paying them 30,000 - 40,000 per month is just that, a dream. Expectations are low here. Thai English teachers usually teach pretty pitiful English and we are left to plug up the holes in the dam of all the misinformation. Its all very well to set standards but you must also be willing to reward those standards being met. That isnt happening here. 

Stupid question but

 

As an English teacher here what do you actual teach?

[mommysboy]

What is meant by credentials? I assume it means certificates, but this will not predicate someone who is violent, or unstable. 

 

The only salient piece of paper would be a police background check, but I think this is already a requirement in some places.

 

Assuming something altogether stricter is required, though quite what that is I can't think, then that would be out of all proportion to the occupation- we're not talking about access to weapons, state secrets, or the medical profession.

 

This assault by a farang was a rarity- perhaps even a million to one event.  You can't really adjust a whole system to avoid that one chance event.

Edited June 4, 2017 by mommysboy

[248900_1469958220]

9 hours ago, wakeupplease said:

Stupid question but

 

As an English teacher here what do you actual teach?

You're right, that is a stupid question......Imagine if you wanted to learn anothe langauage. What is it, do you think you would need to do?........mmmmm thats it...think....thats right.....here it comes.....

 

Well, how did it go? Ok, yes thats right. You could start by learning the alphabet of that language. You could dabble in some grammatical structures while learning some basic conversational phrases. You learn how to read using phonics. 

 

Anyway, I TOTALLY agree with the need for proper criminal background checks. This doesnt happen enough and there must be some pretty dodgy types at schools that could be weeded out. Will it happen? Again, palms get greased and things are swept under the carpet. Infact,  the Thai education system/schools are rather like a beautiful carpet. It looks nice on top, beautiful patterns that catch the eye....lift it up and look underneath and you'll see where all the dust  and dirt is hidden.

 

The owners of a lot of these, especially private schools just dont care. They want a white face to show the parents. Doing criminal checks and proper checks of qualifications takes time and money......and god help them, if people acutally were found to be genuinelly qualified (and hadnt spent time in jail) they may demand BETTER MONEY AND CONDITIONS!! We cant have that. They know that most shouldnt really be teaching and so they offer them as little as possible. Its been going on for decades now. However, its beggining to catch up on the schools.

 

A lot of loopholes have been closed and I have seen a lot of people forced to leave. I'd say the the pool of farang teachers that can be fully legally employed has shrunk significantly over the last 3 -5 years. All those guys 'studying' Thai on Ed visa's but really working on the sly, not so easy now. The 'tourist visa' teacher also not so easy. It seems schools are now more desperate than ever and wondering what happened! Its partially their own fault. I wonder if they will ever think to raise salaries in line with better qualified applicants??

 

We'll see....

Edited June 4, 2017 by 248900_1469958220

[LazySlipper]

20 hours ago, lemonjelly said:

I think probation periods and references from previous schools rather than relying on certificates earned aeons ago would be more conducive to meeting the supply needs of the industry.

Being a licensed teacher both in my home country and Thailand I cringe at the idea of having some of the schools in this country as references. Having worked here for nearly 15 years I can without hesitation say that most schools here are run by morons. Most admin and Thai teachers are not even qualified teachers... they do their time and get their license. Things are slowly changing but not fast enough.

 

Their masters' and Phd's are bogus and not even up to international standards. Their references would only be based on one thing... were you a yes man...

 

 

[JAG]

Being a licensed teacher both in my home country and Thailand I cringe at the idea of having some of the schools in this country as references. Having worked here for nearly 15 years I can without hesitation say that most schools here are run by morons. Most admin and Thai teachers are not even qualified teachers... they do their time and get their license. Things are slowly changing but not fast enough.
 
Their masters' and Phd's are bogus and not even up to international standards. Their references would only be based on one thing... were you a yes man...
 
 

As long as the "prevailing culture" within the education system, and particularly within the management echelons, sees nothing wrong in exploiting the recruitment of NES teachers as an opportunity for kickbacks and agency fees and commisions, then qualifications and references will carry little if any weight.

I would bet my months ( meagre) salary that our friend in the badly tie dyed shirt never saw more than 60% of the sum quoted in the school accounts.

[car720]

22 hours ago, kwilco said:

that is a gross oversimplification of the situation - based on a false premise.

argumentum ad verecundiam

 

 

[car720]

19 hours ago, davidst01 said:

You dont know thailand very well. The real teachers do move here and get paid huge money to work in the International schools. Its the other farang who marry a thai and have a baby, for example, that end up in the 30k a month jobs. 

Very  presumptuous comment.  Also I don't think the reference point of this survey are those few who are the exception to the rule.

Tell me can you remember when Sukhumvit Rd virtually ran into jungle at Soi Cowboy?

[ben2talk]

On 6/4/2017 at 11:15 AM, Gary A said:

I voted no because I had two friends who were English teachers. One was well qualified and had all sorts of degrees. The other was an oil field worker who lost his oil field job. The professor was a really poor teacher and the former oil field worker was a great teacher. High education does not necessarily make a good teacher.

Unfortunately this post is obviously made by a poorly qualified teacher in self defence.

 

I do agree with it in principle, however, having had extensive experience. I'd say that teachers with 'Higher Education' are often of a higher quality than those without.

 

If the rules were less strictly enforced, there would be less effort to defraud the system. Schools should be free to decide for themselves - following interview with test teaching, trials with reviews at 1-2-3 month intervals (and full pay during probation) it should not be complicated.

 

For less capable schools, incapable of judging teachers for themselves, then vetting should be strict enough to guarantee no fraud is commited... but rules relaxed enough that teachers applying with some experience/work history and ability should be eligible. There are many capable people who have no degree... I personally qualified as a Marine Radio and Radar Officer - not a recognised University program, but a Secretary of State for the Home Department qualification (in some respects of a higher standard) requiring 4 years of study.

 

Entirely unlisted on the approved education lists... 

[Gary A]

I am convinced that the eggheads trying to teach proper complicated grammar are wasting their and and the student's time. I see the homework that the kids have and they are learning nothing. They have absolutely no reading or speaking comprehension. Colleges and Universities are the places to teach proper English.  Being able to communicate in English should be the first and foremost goal. Once the students can speak basic English, they can take more advanced courses. Why would they even care what an adverb is or what it means.

[Gary A]

1 hour ago, ben2talk said:

Unfortunately this post is obviously made by a poorly qualified teacher in self defence.

 

I do agree with it in principle, however, having had extensive experience. I'd say that teachers with 'Higher Education' are often of a higher quality than those without.

 

If the rules were less strictly enforced, there would be less effort to defraud the system. Schools should be free to decide for themselves - following interview with test teaching, trials with reviews at 1-2-3 month intervals (and full pay during probation) it should not be complicated.

 

For less capable schools, incapable of judging teachers for themselves, then vetting should be strict enough to guarantee no fraud is commited... but rules relaxed enough that teachers applying with some experience/work history and ability should be eligible. There are many capable people who have no degree... I personally qualified as a Marine Radio and Radar Officer - not a recognised University program, but a Secretary of State for the Home Department qualification (in some respects of a higher standard) requiring 4 years of study.

 

Entirely unlisted on the approved education lists... 

 

You think that I'm a wannabe teacher??? I have never been an English teacher and NEVER had any desire to be an English teacher.

[ben2talk]

1 hour ago, Gary A said:

 

You think that I'm a wannabe teacher??? I have never been an English teacher and NEVER had any desire to be an English teacher.

Difficult to imagine why you'd be commenting on your friends who were English teachers and their ability in teaching if you weren't also teaching.

 

My bad... but still, it's not right to base a vote and set up a rule based on a single instance.

[Gary A]

My vote was based on the fact that , at least here, the local kids in my area cannot speak English even though it is taught at their schools. My wife's nephew is now "learning" about adverbs but cannot speak basic English. Whoever sets up the government English programs should be replaced with a common sense administrator. As I said before, speaking basic English should be the goal. Bored old retired native English speakers would do a much better job.

 

As for myself, I'm a crotchety old fart with very limited patience. I wouldn't be at all interested but I know expats who would take an interest in the kids.

[abrahamzvi]

On 6/13/2017 at 11:41 AM, Gary A said:

I am convinced that the eggheads trying to teach proper complicated grammar are wasting their and and the student's time. I see the homework that the kids have and they are learning nothing. They have absolutely no reading or speaking comprehension. Colleges and Universities are the places to teach proper English.  Being able to communicate in English should be the first and foremost goal. Once the students can speak basic English, they can take more advanced courses. Why would they even care what an adverb is or what it means.

I agree that grammar is not the only thing to learn about a foreign language - conversation is just as important. However, as opposed to native speakers, foreigners can't learn to converse without knowing basic grammar. To a native speaker it is natural to say " he sings beautifully". Without basic grammar a foreigner would say "he sing beautiful". To strike the proper balance between grammar and conversational English is the proper way!

[Gary A]

Where do you suppose that bargirls learned their English. It sure wasn't in a Thai school. Mangled English is better than no English. Proper English is fine but some basic English is needed before learning the fine points. If a Thai says "he sing beautiful", I can certainly understand what they are trying to tell me. I read many posts here on TV that are written by native English speakers. I have difficulty comprehending what they are trying to say.

[duanebigsby]

In order to get a work permit and teaching license/waiver, one now needs a criminal background check and original transcripts verifying your degree. Most schools are now doing a 3 month probation period as well.What more could Thailand ask for?

For those suggesting "pay peanuts, get monkeys",  I made about $4500 a month in vancouver at my job and could save $500 a month. Here I make 30k baht and save about 10k baht, about $400 cdn .

[ben2talk]

On 6/14/2017 at 3:09 PM, abrahamzvi said:

grammar is not the only thing to learn about a foreign language - conversation is just as important.

Strange divisions, separating 'grammar' from 'conversation'. 

 

We're talking about spoken over written English, right? So we try to communicate and become aware of certain errors which need extra input to clarify - extra input can be in the form of improved grammar, or vocabulary and gestures.

 

I'd suggest that 'conversation' is the leading driver for gaining fluency and the ability to learn. Studying the language in books (not only grammar, but also style and function) is something people will do if they wish to learn more and learn faster.

[kwilco]

On 6/19/2017 at 9:01 PM, ben2talk said:

Strange divisions, separating 'grammar' from 'conversation'. 

 

We're talking about spoken over written English, right? So we try to communicate and become aware of certain errors which need extra input to clarify - extra input can be in the form of improved grammar, or vocabulary and gestures.

 

I'd suggest that 'conversation' is the leading driver for gaining fluency and the ability to learn. Studying the language in books (not only grammar, but also style and function) is something people will do if they wish to learn more and learn faster.

I think you need to learn about language first and then how it is learned and taught (their are several ways, of course)

 

Most native speakers in any language have no idea of grammar........ how it is implemented or even what it is...