Pressure switch - time lags.

[up2you2]

I have an underground storage tank situated just outside of my pump room.
Eleven years ago when I purchased my Makita pump to produce pressure for my two storey home, it used to give me constant pressure.
Now when I run the stand pipe right beside my pump room, the water pressure really goes up and down, with the cycle of the pressure switch kicking in.
I have been told it cannot be adjusted.

Does anybody have experience of the difference between different manufacturers of pressure switches in Thailand?
Secondly perhaps even different models from the same manufacturer?

Finally in the event I have to change this pump in the future, does anybody again have any experience of a pump that can produce constant pressure please?
 

[RichCor]

What's the make and model of your Makita Pump?

It might not be a pressure switch issue, but a malfunctioning accumulator or expansion tank that's lost it's air cushion.

 

I'm assuming that before you could open a water valve and water would flow at an even rate, but now it pulses unless one or more valves are wide open.  This would indicate the accumulator or expansion tank are flooded and can't assist in regulating water pressure between pressure switch cycles.

 

You could always add an external pressure tank. 

[up2you2]

Thank you for your reply.

Here are the details of my pump - see attachments

[Crossy]

This unit has a pressure switch (to turn it on) and a flow switch which keeps it on regardless of the pressure and only turns it off when the flow goes below a certain level. The idea is that the pump runs all the time there is still flow.

 

It looks like the flow switch has failed (got stuck?) and it is now only being controlled by the pressure switch.

 

Locate the flow switch, replace, problem (hopefully) solved check the wiring too, just in case it's a simple "wire fallen off" job.

 

EDIT Looking at the images of the pump there appears to be an air valve on top of the accumulator, drain all the water out of the pump (power off) and pump up to the recommended pressure (on the tank label).

[RichCor]

In your 2015 topic thread, it was suggested you contact KTW or MakitaThailand.  I'm guessing those were a bust?

 

New water pressure pump for residental property.
Started by up2you2, March 7, 2015

 

On 3/8/2015 at 5:26 AM, IMHO said:

OK, it might be worth trying KTW then as well: https://www.ktw.co.th/contactus or http://makitathailand.com/en/contactus

 

...or:

• MSP Machine Tools,
• TRIPLE E TRADING CO., LTD.

 

 

 

Looks like the VSS751 has an accumulator/pressure tank.  

Can you describe the issue your experiencing?  Is it 'surging' immediately?  

As @Crossy wrote, have you checked to see if the accumulator/pressure tank has air (isn't flooded out)?

 

And again, another option would be to add an additional pressure tank to smooth things out. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by RichCor

[up2you2]

Thank you for this.

All sounds like good advise, but it is trying to find someone to do this in Phuket.

 

Grundfos were round a couple of weeks ago, but they could not help me with this.

 

Makita themselves have been down from Bangkok, but had no solutions.

[RichCor]

2 minutes ago, up2you2 said:

Makita themselves have been down from Bangkok, but had no solutions.

Can you explain what Makita themselves found/determined?

[Crossy]

Engineering solution.

 

The flow switch is the thing in the vertical pipe on the right side of the photos above.

 

Take your "engineer's adjuster" (hammer) and give it a couple of sharp thumps.

 

Test.

 

Fixed - QED

 

Not fixed call the man.

[Crossy]

13 minutes ago, up2you2 said:

Makita themselves have been down from Bangkok, but had no solutions.

 

Did they take the beast apart? Do anything electrical?

 

These things are not rocket science and really shouldn't be beyond an enthusiastic DIYer.

[up2you2]

Makita Bangkok were under great pressure from Japan through me to try and fix this.

Their visit to my home was basically lip service (in Thai), as they had local pump service engineers join them at my premises.

Nobody seemed to know, and what I find out so often is the case, nobody wanted to know.

Sorry here in this part of of the world, what you are talking about and referring to, is in fact truly rocket science.

The only way I could get the Grundfos guy round, was with the enticement, that if it fails completely, then I wanted to know which model I should purchase from them.

 

My pump works, to the degree that I am living and having to accept this performance fault.

Of it not being able to provide constant pressure.

The time lag between the pump switching off, having reached the agreed pressure, before it switches on again is long.

Hence my original enquiry as to what difference there are between the various pressure switch in Thailand.

 

 

 

[RichCor]

On 6/13/2017 at 5:34 PM, up2you2 said:

Now when I run the stand pipe right beside my pump room, the water pressure really goes up and down, with the cycle of the pressure switch kicking in.  I have been told it cannot be adjusted.

 

25 minutes ago, up2you2 said:

My pump works, to the degree that I am living and having to accept this performance fault. Of it not being able to provide constant pressure.

The time lag between the pump switching off, having reached the agreed pressure, before it switches on again is long.

Hence my original enquiry as to what difference there are between the various pressure switch in Thailand.

 

I'm having a bit of a problem understanding why the pump people seem to be ignoring you even when onsite looking at the pump.  

What, did the 'guy who fixes the drills' come out and really didn't have a clue? Are they all saying nothing's wrong, or are they 'hinting' they don't want to get involved and you should 'live with it' or 'pay the money to replace it'.

 

I would really ask you to work on how you describe the issue. The first quote describes constant cycling. The second quote describes long cycling with falling pressure.  A functioning Accumulator/Pressure Tank will take over from a running pump at lower flow out ... but should deliver somewhat constant flow and pressure between the pre-set points where the pumps pressure switch is actuating. That's the way it's supposed to work, it's not constantly cycling, not constant pressure, but gently falling pressure with constant flow.

 

If you can better describe the issue, including pressure descriptions and times between On and Off cycles, what happens when a valve or several valves are WIDE OPEN, vs when a valve is partially cracked open or moderately opened... it might be helpful as you might just need to replace the pressure switch, or maybe need to replace (or add an additional) accumulator/pressure pump.

 

Then there's the third option. Just replace the thing with something someone is willing to work on.

[Crossy]

IMPORTANT NOTE This is a "constant pressure" pump. It has both a pressure switch and a flow switch. If either of them is active the pump runs.

 

It is evident from the symptoms that the flow switch is not closing and it's operating on the pressure switch only (the accumulator may, or may not, also be flooded).

 

Have you (or your man):-

• Tried the hammer trick?
• Taken it apart and checked the flow switch is operating and not jammed by debris?
• Verified that the motor does run with the flow switch active? (wire off, contacts blocked by ants)

After all, this is the DIY forum

 

 

[up2you2]

2 hours ago, RichCor said:

 

 

I'm having a bit of a problem understanding why the pump people seem to be ignoring you even when onsite looking at the pump.  

What, did the 'guy who fixes the drills' come out and really didn't have a clue? Are they all saying nothing's wrong, or are they 'hinting' they don't want to get involved and you should 'live with it' or 'pay the money to replace it'.

 

I would really ask you to work on how you describe the issue. The first quote describes constant cycling. The second quote describes long cycling with falling pressure.  A functioning Accumulator/Pressure Tank will take over from a running pump at lower flow out ... but should deliver somewhat constant flow and pressure between the pre-set points where the pumps pressure switch is actuating. That's the way it's supposed to work, it's not constantly cycling, not constant pressure, but gently falling pressure with constant flow.

 

If you can better describe the issue, including pressure descriptions and times between On and Off cycles, what happens when a valve or several valves are WIDE OPEN, vs when a valve is partially cracked open or moderately opened... it might be helpful as you might just need to replace the pressure switch, or maybe need to replace (or add an additional) accumulator/pressure pump.

 

Then there's the third option. Just replace the thing with something someone is willing to work on.

Okay let's see if I can fill in these missing blanks.

First of all Makita stopped making these pumps years ago, further more from what I have understood for sure Thailand doesn't carry spare parts, which now may also be the case with Japan itself.

Next of all the people who have come to look at this pump, nobody has had experience with repairing Makita pumps.

I don't speak a word of Thai, they accept something is wrong, but probably are thinking if the pump works, what's the problem, and perhaps the achieving constant pressure is not a problem for them.
Nobody who has been has been able to diagnose the problem, let alone fix it.
Yes 'live with it' is the impression I get.
And no nobody has been really suggesting that I replace it.
Really to most people, it's simple not a problem.

I wrote:
"Now when I run the stand pipe right beside my pump room, the water pressure really goes up and down, with the cycle of the pressure switch kicking in.  I have been told it cannot be adjusted."
When you turn on the stand pipe beside the pump, after a few seconds the pump starts up.
Whilst the pump is running the water pressure is good.
When the water pressure reaches a certain level, the pump stops.
The water pressure goes down.
It goes right down until the pump kicks in again.

Times between On and Off cycles - don't know.
What happens when a valve or several valves are WIDE OPEN - constant pressure, the pump is running all the time.
Vs when a valve is partially cracked open or moderately opened - don't know.
Pressure switches have been changed several times.

Sorry so many people have covered the points you have raised already.
What I wanted to know was some information about pressure switches in Thailand.

Are they all the same?
What is the difference?
On some can you adjust the time delay before the pump kicks in again?
Which are the most reliable?
Are imported pressure pressure switches available here?

Does anybody know of who might replace an air cushion please?

[up2you2]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

IMPORTANT NOTE This is a "constant pressure" pump. It has both a pressure switch and a flow switch. If either of them is active the pump runs.

 

It is evident from the symptoms that the flow switch is not closing and it's operating on the pressure switch only (the accumulator may, or may not, also be flooded).

 

Have you (or your man):-

• Tried the hammer trick?
• Taken it apart and checked the flow switch is operating and not jammed by debris?
• Verified that the motor does run with the flow switch active? (wire off, contacts blocked by ants)

After all, this is the DIY forum

 

 

Great news here, it is a "constant pressure" pump.
This is a giant step for mankind.

Your advise sounds good and wise - thank you.

I do not know if anyone has tried the hammer trick.
Nobody has taken it apart.
As far as I know nobody has verified that the motor does run with the flow switch active.

After all, this is the DIY forum.
Yes my apologies here, perhaps I have come to the wrong place.

Okay you have been a great help here, letting me know things I should have known already.
This gives me a leg up to take this further.
I will go back to Makita now, and see what I can do.

Most grateful to you all for for your help and support.
 

[RichCor]

50 minutes ago, up2you2 said:

Pressure switches have been changed several times.

50 minutes ago, up2you2 said:

What happens when a valve or several valves are WIDE OPEN - constant pressure, the pump is running all the time.
Vs when a valve is partially cracked open or moderately opened - don't know.

51 minutes ago, up2you2 said:

When you turn on the stand pipe beside the pump, after a few seconds the pump starts up.
Whilst the pump is running the water pressure is good.
When the water pressure reaches a certain level, the pump stops.
The water pressure goes down.
It goes right down until the pump kicks in again.

53 minutes ago, up2you2 said:

Sorry so many people have covered the points you have raised already.
What I wanted to know was some information about pressure switches in Thailand.

Are they all the same?
What is the difference?
On some can you adjust the time delay before the pump kicks in again?
Which are the most reliable?
Are imported pressure pressure switches available here?

 

I recognize you're really only interested in discussing pressure switches and pressure switch options.  It's just that what you've posted doesn't quite make sense.

 

The reason I'm not discussing pressure switch options is I don't feel this is a pressure switch issue. If this pump's pressure switch has been replaced before during this 2+ year pump saga and it hasn't affected the pumps expected operation then this may indicate it's NOT a 'pressure' switch issue. There are other elements on this pump that affect how water flows and when the motor gets triggered.

 

In the second quote, when asked what happens when a valve is only partially or moderately opened, you indicate "don't know". This answer is confusing to me.  

 

I'm presuming a 'constant pressure' pump with an integrated accumulator/pressure tank is supposed provide itinerant amounts of water flow/pressure from the pressure tank, but when the pressure falls low enough then the pressure switch triggers the pump and it remains ON, so long as the secondary FLOW SWITCH indicates water continues to flow. Once the open valve is closed (and the accumulator tank refilled to its pressure limit) the pump turns off.

 

If the FLOW SWITCH is malfunctioning, this would definitely cause havoc with the pump's 'constant pressure' operation, very potentially resulting in the pump functioning as a High/Low cycle pump -- turning ON to fill the Accumulator until pressurized, turning OFF and allowing the Accumulator to release its held water, losing pressure as it goes, with the line pressure dropping until low enough that the Pressure Switch is triggered to turn on the Pump (and repeating the ON/OFF/ON/OFF cycle.

 

I think @Crossy is right. Check the FLOW SWITCH. Check the Accumulator Pressure Tank.  

[wayned]

It' looks like there is an air valve on the top of the accumulator tank.  It's easy to check if the internal bladder is broken.  Depress the pin in the air valve.  If water comes out then the bladder is broken and it cannot be replaced, the entire tank has to be replaced.  If no water comes out pressurize the tank with a pump to 2 PSI below the cut on pressure on the pressure switch.

 

I have a pimp, cheap Chinese variety, that has a broken bladder that was doing the same thing.  I just bypassed the pressure switch with an on/off switch so it is only turned on when I use it, but it is used in an application where that is not a problem.

[up2you2]

10 hours ago, RichCor said:

 

I recognize you're really only interested in discussing pressure switches and pressure switch options.  It's just that what you've posted doesn't quite make sense.

 

The reason I'm not discussing pressure switch options is I don't feel this is a pressure switch issue. If this pump's pressure switch has been replaced before during this 2+ year pump saga and it hasn't affected the pumps expected operation then this may indicate it's NOT a 'pressure' switch issue. There are other elements on this pump that affect how water flows and when the motor gets triggered.

 

In the second quote, when asked what happens when a valve is only partially or moderately opened, you indicate "don't know". This answer is confusing to me.  

 

I'm presuming a 'constant pressure' pump with an integrated accumulator/pressure tank is supposed provide itinerant amounts of water flow/pressure from the pressure tank, but when the pressure falls low enough then the pressure switch triggers the pump and it remains ON, so long as the secondary FLOW SWITCH indicates water continues to flow. Once the open valve is closed (and the accumulator tank refilled to its pressure limit) the pump turns off.

 

If the FLOW SWITCH is malfunctioning, this would definitely cause havoc with the pump's 'constant pressure' operation, very potentially resulting in the pump functioning as a High/Low cycle pump -- turning ON to fill the Accumulator until pressurized, turning OFF and allowing the Accumulator to release its held water, losing pressure as it goes, with the line pressure dropping until low enough that the Pressure Switch is triggered to turn on the Pump (and repeating the ON/OFF/ON/OFF cycle.

 

I think @Crossy is right. Check the FLOW SWITCH. Check the Accumulator Pressure Tank.  

Not so much that I have only been interested in discussing pressure switches, rather the fact the subject of the original post has been totally omitted.

Point taken, my problems might well not be contributed to my pressure switch.
But when I initially posted I had run out of ideas where the fault may lie.

What happens when a valve is only partially or moderately opened.
From the pump going off, a 30 second delay to it kicking in again.
If the valve is opened fully, the pump does not go off.
Sorry, last night a million mosquitoes to run this experiment.

Flow Switch.
In the event it is indeed malfunctioning, what are your experiences of Flow Switches.
Availability, reliability and performance please?

 

[RichCor]

2 hours ago, up2you2 said:

What happens when a valve is only partially or moderately opened.
From the pump going off, a 30 second delay to it kicking in again.
If the valve is opened fully, the pump does not go off.

The reason I requested this 'partially open valve' test was to determine the functionality of the integrated accumulator/pressure tank. With 30 seconds of water flow this indicates the pressure tank is working fine. I wouldn't touch it for now.

 

 

2 hours ago, up2you2 said:

Flow Switch.
In the event it is indeed malfunctioning, what are your experiences of Flow Switches.
Availability, reliability and performance please?

 I think you'd be better served by continuing diagnostics, focused on the Flow Switch.

 

As @Crossy previously suggested, it could be a simple fix.

Have you (or your man):-

• Visually inspect the Flow Switch wiring for lose or broken connections
• Try the hammer trick, sharp 'tap' on the flow switch housing), both with pump off and with it running
• Unplug (or power isolate) the pump, take apart the flow switch and check it is operating and not jammed by debris, electrical wire contacts are good, not blocked by ants or other insects/bugs, actuator mechanism functions and switch provides 'open' and 'closed' electrical states
• With everything reassembled,
  Rig a test of the Flow Switch to verify it's a Flow Switch issue:

With water valve fully or almost fully open

Verify the pump still shuts off when it really shouldn't

SAFELY temporarily 'short' the electrical connection of Flow Switch

??? with Flow Switch 'shorted' does the pump now remain constantly ON 

 

Availability, reliability and performance...  these questions come into play only if OEM or aftermarket exact replacement parts are impossible to obtain and you need to ''retrofit' another Flow Switch into its place (between the pump and the accumulator).

 

At some point you may find it more time and cost effective to just replace the pump.

[up2you2]

5 hours ago, RichCor said:

The reason I requested this 'partially open valve' test was to determine the functionality of the integrated accumulator/pressure tank. With 30 seconds of water flow this indicates the pressure tank is working fine. I wouldn't touch it for now.

 

 

 I think you'd be better served by continuing diagnostics, focused on the Flow Switch.

 

As @Crossy previously suggested, it could be a simple fix.

Have you (or your man):-

• Visually inspect the Flow Switch wiring for lose or broken connections
• Try the hammer trick, sharp 'tap' on the flow switch housing), both with pump off and with it running
• Unplug (or power isolate) the pump, take apart the flow switch and check it is operating and not jammed by debris, electrical wire contacts are good, not blocked by ants or other insects/bugs, actuator mechanism functions and switch provides 'open' and 'closed' electrical states
• With everything reassembled,
  Rig a test of the Flow Switch to verify it's a Flow Switch issue:

With water valve fully or almost fully open

Verify the pump still shuts off when it really shouldn't

SAFELY temporarily 'short' the electrical connection of Flow Switch

??? with Flow Switch 'shorted' does the pump now remain constantly ON 

 

Availability, reliability and performance...  these questions come into play only if OEM or aftermarket exact replacement parts are impossible to obtain and you need to ''retrofit' another Flow Switch into its place (between the pump and the accumulator).

 

At some point you may find it more time and cost effective to just replace the pump.

 

10 hours ago, up2you2 said:

Not so much that I have only been interested in discussing pressure switches, rather the fact the subject of the original post has been totally omitted.

Point taken, my problems might well not be contributed to my pressure switch.
But when I initially posted I had run out of ideas where the fault may lie.

What happens when a valve is only partially or moderately opened.
From the pump going off, a 30 second delay to it kicking in again.
If the valve is opened fully, the pump does not go off.
Sorry, last night a million mosquitoes to run this experiment.

Flow Switch.
In the event it is indeed malfunctioning, what are your experiences of Flow Switches.
Availability, reliability and performance please?

 

Again thank you for your time and detailed reply.

I am loathed to touch my pump myself.
Let me explain, I have a pump that is currently working, I cannot afford for it to stop working, I have my family to consider.
At this point please excuse me if I wait until the professionals arrive.

I am so grateful for all of these suggestions Crossy has made, and whoever eventually comes I will go through them one by one.

Your comments on Flow Switches also gives me a good idea of what I am up against.

Today I sent 22 emails to Makati, nobody has replied to date, it normally takes a reminder if not three attempts.

During the last year I have considered a Hitachi pump.
They have confirmed to the following for Phuket;
1. No Hitachi sales, service or maintenance by Hitachi personnel.
2. If the pump is declared unrepairable in Phuket, it has to be sent up to Bangkok.
3. During this period I have to purchase a second pump. 

[superal]

Hi Folks ,

               Interesting reading but could not find what I was looking for , as follows .

My house pump which is sited above ground and pumps water from our well for domestic use .  The pump was only fitted 2 years ago and has only been playing up for a couple of weeks or so .  Symptoms --- If I open the garden  hose 1" open end the pump runs with no problems . If I open a tap within the house the water surges in 2 second cycles  and the pump is clicking in unison with the surge . If I open 2 taps the problem goes and the pump runs quietly  and no surging . 

   The name of the pump is Mitsan 250 w model ad-303 .   Every 2 or 3 hours the pump is stopping and that is because there are a pair of electrical contacts , within a small domed sphere cover , that keep locking . Solution is power off , remove  cover and open points with screwdriver , power back on and all is fine for a few hours . There is no bladder( that I know of )  but there is a small nitrogen tank which says

 "water hammer eliminator "  .   I know that we have a small underground leaking pipe cos the concrete is damp but would that be causing the problem ?  Have been told that the constant stop & start will damage the pump so looking for advice . BTW , I called the supplier in BK and he put me in touch with the local fitter who just happened to be the original installer who thinks that the surging is not a problem but I cannot believe that  .                           All help greatly  appreciated    

[Crossy]

@superal OK, it's possible that the nitrogen tank has lost its charge, but I would be looking initially at a faulty pressure switch (the thing with the contacts).

 

They are cheap, take it off and get a replacement. Do NOT try to adjust the switch without using a pressure gauge, they are set correctly when new.

[RichCor]

1 hour ago, superal said:

 The name of the pump is Mitsan 250 w model ad-303

 

Can't find much on that particular model. I keep finding CLINTON and HIER badged units.

You could also try unplugging and letting the water completely drain. Though that's usually only a temporary solution.

[superal]

Thanks Crossy & Richcor for your help  . I will replace the pressure as a start 

[superal]

On 23/06/2017 at 3:20 PM, Crossy said:

@superal OK, it's possible that the nitrogen tank has lost its charge, but I would be looking initially at a faulty pressure switch (the thing with the contacts).

 

They are cheap, take it off and get a replacement. Do NOT try to adjust the switch without using a pressure gauge, they are set correctly when new.

Been a while I know but had the pump pressure switch replaced and it made no difference . The installer could not come up with a solution and he is the appointed agent for the area . 

              We are having some building work done starting today and always use the same guy who can turn his hand to everything and he came up with the fix it . Solution , from the delivery exit pipe he changed the 25mm to a 100mm and 2 meters long and then back to the existing 25mm. Problem solved , not the first time he has done it . Water pressure is good and no start stop from the motor . Thanks for your interest and also Richcor . 

[Crossy]

5 hours ago, superal said:

Solution , from the delivery exit pipe he changed the 25mm to a 100mm and 2 meters long and then back to the existing 25mm. Problem solved , not the first time he has done it . Water pressure is good and no start stop from the motor . Thanks for your interest and also Richcor

 

Sounds like he has created a DIY pressure tank. I hope he's made arrangements to drain the water / admit air when it becomes waterlogged as it will sooner or later with no membrane.

 

That this fixed it lends credence to the nitrogen tank lost pressure scenario.

 

[superal]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Sounds like he has created a DIY pressure tank. I hope he's made arrangements to drain the water / admit air when it becomes waterlogged as it will sooner or later with no membrane.

 

That this fixed it lends credence to the nitrogen tank lost pressure scenario.

 

Sorry pal but having posed your comments to him in my best Thai lingo he indicated nothing else needed and go and speak to another farang who I know who had the same scenario 2 years ago and all is still ok . Have to wait and see how it performs in the coming weeks .   Have you ever come across house pumps with a nitrogen tank before cos all of my Googling on the subject brings sparse info .

Cheers for your help   

[RichCor]

17 minutes ago, superal said:

he indicated nothing else needed and go and speak to another farang who I know who had the same scenario 2 years ago and all is still ok . Have to wait and see how it performs in the coming weeks .

 

Having the pump immediately output to a 100mm outpipe would considerably lower the immediate back-pressure the pump sees when running, though one wonders why the same pump worked before and only just recently (last few years) developed this issue.

 

Yep. Wait and see.

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, superal said:

Sorry pal but having posed your comments to him in my best Thai lingo he indicated nothing else needed and go and speak to another farang who I know who had the same scenario 2 years ago and all is still ok . Have to wait and see how it performs in the coming weeks .   Have you ever come across house pumps with a nitrogen tank before cos all of my Googling on the subject brings sparse info .

Cheers for your help   

Just all the Mitsubishi EP series and the Hitachi WT and WM series together with the inverter pumps and probably all the Grundfos ones that use a pressure tank.

[superal]

10 hours ago, RichCor said:

 

Having the pump immediately output to a 100mm outpipe would considerably lower the immediate back-pressure the pump sees when running, though one wonders why the same pump worked before and only just recently (last few years) developed this issue.

 

Yep. Wait and see.

Hi Richcor ,

                 I agree with all your comments , btw the next door has the same problem of the motor stop/starting every 2 seconds when delivering . It also clicks on & off every 30 seconds when not delivering  same as ours use to do suggesting a leak , however ours has now stopped all that and is inactive when there is no demand for water . 

           I read that many pumps use compressed air held by a bladder , so why would a nitrogen tank be used as in our case . 

Thanks for your interest .

[VocalNeal]

Just curious. Is your piece of 4" pipe vertical or horizontal? 

 

Can't find a decent picture of your pump. Does the expansion tank have any kind of valve on top? Car or bicycle?

Edited July 18, 2017 by VocalNeal