Latimer Road fire: Huge fire engulfs west London flats

[sandrabbit]

47 minutes ago, JamJar said:

 

This isn't my field. I'm just putting the info together in one place for those with the relevant experience to peruse.

It's clear that some are trying to protect themselves by taking their pages down asap.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20170614035707/http:/wittukgroup.co.uk/grenfell-tower-london-w11-1tq-regeneration-project/

https://web.archive.org/web/20170614034527/http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk/page/grenfell-tower

https://web.archive.org/web/20170614055549/http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/refurbishment/case-studies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower

http://www.bailey-uk.com/face-value/environmental/rainscreen-cladding-and-fire-risk/

 

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/09/14/cladding-firm-harley-curtain-wall-pre-packed/

 

 

https://twitter.com/hashtag/GrenfellTower?src=hash

 

two of those links were useful, some of the stuff I quoted from the links you supplied will be coming up in the coming weeks on tv, in parliament etc. and harley curtain wall went into admin 2 years ago.

 

cheers JamJar

Edited June 14, 2017 by sandrabbit

[sandrabbit]

24 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Some articles have mentioned that because of Ramadan more people were awake and saved, or something like that.  Not really sure what they meant.  But it brings up the question were the majority of the tenants in the building muslims?  Was the place possibly targeted because of that? Also reading articles, people are saying there were no alarms.  It sure seems like the building had no sprinkler system or a badly working one, but no alarms?  In the USA it is very common, and it is the law to have smoke detectors in hotels, apartment complexes, etc.  Are such things mandated in the UK?

they would have been up late after fasting finished

[sandrabbit]

some idiot lecturer is talking about fire compartments but it's obvious it spread from the outside.

[kkerry]

34 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Some articles have mentioned that because of Ramadan more people were awake and saved, or something like that.  Not really sure what they meant.  But it brings up the question were the majority of the tenants in the building muslims?  Was the place possibly targeted because of that? Also reading articles, people are saying there were no alarms.  It sure seems like the building had no sprinkler system or a badly working one, but no alarms?  In the USA it is very common, and it is the law to have smoke detectors in hotels, apartment complexes, etc.  Are such things mandated in the UK?

 

People who live there were saying they didn't hear a fire alarm from inside their flats. Some said the alarm was only audible in the fire exit stairwell.

 

Because of Ramadan, people were still awake after 1AM, eating and praying. Being awake, they could hear people in the streets yelling out, so some were alerted to the fire that way. 

 

Apparently lots of buildings in the UK don't have sprinkler systems. UK tower blocks are designed to prevent fire spreading from floor to floor rapidly, but this one did just that, so the cladding is what everyone is focusing on. In Dubai and Australia there have been similar fires in apartment towers with cladding, but newer buildings, so probably better fire escapes, access and sprinklers. UK design doesn't rely on a sprinkler system because ideally the fire brigade will arrive asap and put out what should be a fire in a small area only, so staying inside your flat behind a strong door waiting for the fire to be contained is what people had been instructed to do.

 

 

 

 

 

[sandrabbit]

48 minutes ago, kkerry said:

 

People who live there were saying they didn't hear a fire alarm from inside their flats. Some said the alarm was only audible in the fire exit stairwell.

 

Because of Ramadan, people were still awake after 1AM, eating and praying. Being awake, they could hear people in the streets yelling out, so some were alerted to the fire that way. 

 

Apparently lots of buildings in the UK don't have sprinkler systems. UK tower blocks are designed to prevent fire spreading from floor to floor rapidly, but this one did just that, so the cladding is what everyone is focusing on. In Dubai and Australia there have been similar fires in apartment towers with cladding, but newer buildings, so probably better fire escapes, access and sprinklers. UK design doesn't rely on a sprinkler system because ideally the fire brigade will arrive asap and put out what should be a fire in a small area only, so staying inside your flat behind a strong door waiting for the fire to be contained is what people had been instructed to do.

 

 

 

 

 

it's looking like you are right, the cladding caused it. read some previous posts & the links and you will see the subject was already known.

[beautifulthailand99]

 

[IMA_FARANG]

The questions to ask:

• Why didn't the smoke detectors work?
• Why was there apparently no water sprinkler fire suppression system?
• What was the nature of the recent  upgrades to the building?
• Why did the fire apparently spread upwards on the OUTSIDE of the building. Was flammable material recently installed there on the outside of the building to "improve" it's appearance.

[chickenslegs]

10 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

The questions to ask:

• Why didn't the smoke detectors work?
• Why was there apparently no water sprinkler fire suppression system?
• What was the nature of the recent  upgrades to the building?
• Why did the fire apparently spread upwards on the OUTSIDE of the building. Was flammable material recently installed there on the outside of the building to "improve" it's appearance.

Very understandable that people want Immediate answers to all these questions, and more.

 

The reality is that these investigations will take weeks or months to complete before we get any answers.

 

I hope that the investigations will include a look at the consequenses of the reduction of Fire Service personnel over the past several years.

[Kabula]

9 hours ago, overherebc said:

You really don't believe that do you??

Yes and I never saw anything similar in the news in 60 years.

[7by7]

3 hours ago, IMA_FARANG said:

The questions to ask:

• Why didn't the smoke detectors work?
• Why was there apparently no water sprinkler fire suppression system?
• What was the nature of the recent  upgrades to the building?
• Why did the fire apparently spread upwards on the OUTSIDE of the building. Was flammable material recently installed there on the outside of the building to "improve" it's appearance.

 

"Why was there apparently no water sprinkler fire suppression system?"

 

Standard practice in the UK is what is called a passive system. There are no sprinklers: fire doors and fire resistant walls are supposed to contain a fire for at least 1 hour. Many blocks, like the one I live in, operate a 'stay put' policy like Grenfell had. We are advised to remain in our flat with the front door closed unless advised by the fire brigade to leave the building. After today, we wont be doing that; if the fire alarm goes off, we're out of there!

 

Your other questions need answering, and hopefully the inquiry will provide them.

 

 

[webfact]

Fire engulfs London tower block, at least 12 dead, dozens injured

By Kylie MacLellan and Toby Melville

 

Firefighters direct jets of water onto a tower block severely damaged by a serious fire, in north Kensington, West London, Britain June 14, 2017. REUTERS/Toby Melville

LONDON (Reuters) - A blaze engulfed a 24-storey housing block in central London on Wednesday, trapping residents as they slept and killing at least 12 people in an inferno that the fire brigade said was unprecedented in its scale and speed.

 

More than 200 firefighters, backed up by 40 fire engines, fought for hours to try to control the blaze, London's deadliest for a generation. The Grenfell Tower apartment block was home to about 600 people.

 

A local residents' group said it had predicted such a catastrophe on their low-rent housing estate that overlooks affluent parts of the Kensington area of the capital, and London Mayor Sadiq Khan said there were questions to answer.

 

Prime Minister Theresa May promised there would be a proper investigation into the disaster, which delayed her talks on trying to secure a parliamentary deal to stay in power and launch talks on Britain's exit from the European Union.

 

Some residents screamed for help from behind upper-floor windows and others tried to throw children to safety as flames raced through the Grenfell block of about 120 apartments just before 1 a.m.

 

Firefighters said they had rescued 65 people - some in pyjamas - from the 43-year-old block.

 

"We could see a lot of children and parents screaming for 'Help! Help! Help!' and putting their hands on the window and asking to help them," Amina Sharif told Reuters.

 

"We could do nothing and we could see the stuff on the side was falling off, collapsing. We were just standing screaming and they were screaming."

 

TYING SHEETS TOGETHER

 

Another witness, Saimar Lleshi, saw people tying together sheets to try to escape.

 

"I saw three people putting sheets together to climb down, but no one climbed down. I don’t know what happened to them. Even when the lights went off, people were waving with white shirts to be seen," Lleshi said.

 

The fire sent up plumes of smoke that could be seen from miles away. The ambulance service said 68 people were being treated in hospital, with 18 in critical condition.

 

More than 16 hours after the fire started, crews were still trying to douse flames as they sought to reach the top floors.

 

But London police commander Stuart Cundy told reporters he did not believe further survivors would be found in the building.

 

At a nearby community centre used to house some of those rescued, tensions were rising as occupants waited for news.

 

"The fire, which was unprecedented in its scale and speed, will be subject to a full fire investigation," said Steve Apter from the London Fire Brigade. "Any lessons learnt from this will be borne out not just across London, across the UK - and lessons learnt globally."

 

The emergency services said it was too early to say what had caused the inferno, which left the block a charred, smoking shell. Some residents said no alarm had sounded. Others said they had warned repeatedly about fire safety in the block.

 

The building had recently undergone an 8.7 million pound ($11.08 million) exterior refurbishment, which included new external cladding and windows.

 

"We will cooperate with the relevant authorities and emergency services and fully support their enquiries into the causes of this fire at the appropriate time," Rydon, the firm behind the refurbishment work, said in a statement.

 

CHILDREN THROWN TO SAFETY

 

Residents who escaped told how they woke up to the smell of burning and rushed to leave through smoke-filled corridors and stairwells.

 

There were reports that some leapt out of windows. Other witnesses spoke of children including a baby being thrown to safety from high windows.

 

Tamara, one witness, told the BBC: "There's people, like, throwing their kids out, 'Just save my children, just save my children!'".

 

Opposition Labour party leader Jeremy Corbyn said sprinkler systems should be installed in such blocks and he called on the government to make a statement in parliament.

 

Fire Minister Nick Hurd said local authorities and fire services across the country would assess tower blocks undergoing similar renovation work to provide reassurance.

 

"In due course when the scene is secure, when it is possible to identify the cause of this fire, there will be proper investigation and if there are any lessons to be learned, they will be and action will be taken," May said.

 

Khan, the London mayor, said there needed to be answers after some residents said they had been advised they should stay in their flats in the event of a fire.

 

"What we can't have is a situation where people's safety is put at risk because of bad advice being given or, if it is the case, as has been alleged, of tower blocks not being properly serviced or maintained," Khan said.

 

Resident Michael Paramasivan told BBC radio he had spoken to a woman who lived on the 21st floor: "She has got six kids. She left with all six of them. When she got downstairs, there was only four of them with her. She is now breaking her heart."

 

(Additional reporting by Lina Saigol, David Milliken, Costas Pitas, Kate Holton, Neil Hall, Elisabeth O'Leary, Alistair Smout, Megan Revell and Oli Rahman; Writing by Guy Faulconbridge and Michael Holden; Editing by Mark Heinrich)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-06-15

[7by7]

Whilst this is a terrible tragedy, the spirit of Londoners of all races and religions and the way the community has rallied to offer aid to the victims of his terrible event has been heartwarming.

 

Mosques, temples and churches open their doors to help Grenfell Tower residents

 

People have been donating food and clothing to those left with nothing, and many have opened their doors to give them shelter.

 

We must also praise the firefighters of the London Fire Brigade for rushing into the inferno in order to rescue residents; were it not for their bravery, many more would have died.
 

Edited June 14, 2017 by 7by7
Correct typo

[Toshiba66]

Almost no one dies from fire. Smoke is the big killer every time. Plastic cladding? Seriously? The smoke that comes of burning PVC is thick and extremely toxic.

 

In Australia every building built above 25 metres from the ground must have sprinklers. How is this not the case in England?

 

What a tragedy for those poor people that could so easy have been avoided with some logic.

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/give-safely-to-support-those-affected-by-grenfell-tower-fire

[zoza]

11 hours ago, sandrabbit said:

labour making political points, up yours corbyn

 

sky news giving labour party political video, he was being given leading questions 

i watched Corbyn this morning no mention of blame just spoke about the need help the people involved in  this disaster ,but tomorrow when the situation is under control the reasons this happened must be investigated.

but the lead story on my laptop (MSN) was Mays adviser

has sat on the report and the measures to stop this happening again ,it was sat on for four years . she seems to be running out of advisors to throw under the bus so I reckon the game is up yours. are you a trump fan.

RIP to all the people who died . and may the injured recover and make the people who allowed this to happen face justice.   

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Don't want to get off topic, but his really gets me thinking about condos where. 

 

Have any similar incidents happened in Thailand? I am aware of structural building collapses, but has any building actually went up in flames in a similar manner?  

[overherebc]

15 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Don't want to get off topic, but his really gets me thinking about condos where. 

 

Have any similar incidents happened in Thailand? I am aware of structural building collapses, but has any building actually went up in flames in a similar manner?  

Not yet.

[Crossy]

Smaller tower (only 10 floors) and only one dead, Feb 2015.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=February+05%2C+2015+Fire+in+a+ten-storey+building+in+Bangkok+Yannawa+district&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=ru5BWcrhDebv8AfHm7nIBg

 

Link to Bangkok Post story in the search results.

 

 

 

 

[hansnl]

2 hours ago, Toshiba66 said:

Almost no one dies from fire. Smoke is the big killer every time. Plastic cladding? Seriously? The smoke that comes of burning PVC is thick and extremely toxic.

 

In Australia every building built above 25 metres from the ground must have sprinklers. How is this not the case in England?

 

What a tragedy for those poor people that could so easy have been avoided with some logic.

Why?

It is called profit making.

[cmsally]

I'm still trying to make sense of why someone thinks its OK to coat a building in plastic !!

Reports are saying it took only 15 mins for the whole building to ignite. That is terrifyingly quick. There was an eyewitnees on TV yesterday that said the from the room the fire started it spread out of the window and set the cladding alight outside. This seems to be the one factor that allowed it to spread and boy was it quick.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

"Why was there apparently no water sprinkler fire suppression system?"

 

Standard practice in the UK is what is called a passive system. There are no sprinklers: fire doors and fire resistant walls are supposed to contain a fire for at least 1 hour. Many blocks, like the one I live in, operate a 'stay put' policy like Grenfell had. We are advised to remain in our flat with the front door closed unless advised by the fire brigade to leave the building. After today, we wont be doing that; if the fire alarm goes off, we're out of there!

 

Your other questions need answering, and hopefully the inquiry will provide them.

 

 

Don't blocks this high have 'wet risers' they are  usually installed in a void outside in the hall way. They are normally 4'' galvanized pipe with double inlet breachers pieces on each floor. The pit at the bottom of the building is full of water, which makes the riser 'wet' at all times for the FB to connect to, via the BP's.

It used to be over 5 floors, required a wet riser, lower than 5 floors had a dry riser, which would be filled up from the fire engines, or an external source.I expect that the building had gone so far that the FB could not access the riser's, due to the speed of the fire burning the cladding.I seem to remember this place  my dad was a plumbing design engineer. It was just called ' Lattimer Road. It was just past Ruston Close, which was the old Rillington Place. As far as i remember, i was only young., i am sure it was a 'Bernard Sunley job. The entrance had a sloping drive and the ground floor was all garage spaces. I visited it many times, when my dad had to go on site.I would never have believed that the project would be in the news all these years later.

[jenifer d]

i had Guardian live updates on all of yesterday; there was one piece that stated when he refurbishing was done, 

part of the job was replacing heating pipes between floors and hooking up new central heating;

it was stated that this involved having to temporarily remove the fire stops between floors-

it said in the same update that the refurbishing contractor and the Council were UNABLE to say

whether the fire stops had been replaced- 

judging from how quickly it spread and how completely the entire building went up (and not just outside due to the cowling),

it would appear obvious that the fire stops had NOT been fitted in...

look for this to come out in the investigation; this will be a HUGE scandal all the way around

[jenifer d]

11 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Some articles have mentioned that because of Ramadan more people were awake and saved, or something like that.  Not really sure what they meant.  But it brings up the question were the majority of the tenants in the building muslims?  Was the place possibly targeted because of that? Also reading articles, people are saying there were no alarms.  It sure seems like the building had no sprinkler system or a badly working one, but no alarms?  In the USA it is very common, and it is the law to have smoke detectors in hotels, apartment complexes, etc.  Are such things mandated in the UK?

quite a few of the tenants were Muslim; several of my UK friends are suggesting (insisting)  intentional arson for that

fact and even gentrification/"cleansing" since the area is quite "posh" and the richies didn't like having the hovels of the poor so near...

the recent gov'ts have stated that such "onerous" regulations (sprinklers, etc) would make less building happen; this was

quoted quite often yesterday 

look up my post near the end of this thread for some facts i read on the Graun's live updates yesterday

 

[jenifer d]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Some dead and some in hospital.

Interview on Al Jazira with a resident that said the council would not address safety concerns by residents.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/fire-24-storey-grenfell-tower-block-white-city-latimer-road-london

 

Whatever, one thing that needs addressing is why it spread so quickly. Assuming it's a concrete building, that shouldn't happen.

i posted some info that was sourced from the Graun's live updates ystrdy, near the end of this thread

[steven100]

Just now, jenifer d said:

this had NOTHING to do with terrorism;

unless it was arson, and some yahoo thought that burning a building filled with Muslims was a good idea

oh right .....    anyway we can still let them know ....

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Just now, steven100 said:

Terrorists will never win .....   we will kill them all ...

I don't know if this was terrorism. My daughter, a fire fighter, called there yesterday, told me that their intel was, that it was an electrical appliance that went up

 A fridge I think

 

[Crossy]

An off-topic troll post has been removed along with the sensible reply.

 

Any more and holidays await.

[Tilacme]

53 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Dave said:

Don't blocks this high have 'wet risers' they are  usually installed in a void outside in the hall way. They are normally 4'' galvanized pipe with double inlet breachers pieces on each floor. The pit at the bottom of the building is full of water, which makes the riser 'wet' at all times for the FB to connect to, via the BP's.

It used to be over 5 floors, required a wet riser, lower than 5 floors had a dry riser, which would be filled up from the fire engines, or an external source.I expect that the building had gone so far that the FB could not access the riser's, due to the speed of the fire burning the cladding.I seem to remember this place  my dad was a plumbing design engineer. It was just called ' Lattimer Road. It was just past Ruston Close, which was the old Rillington Place. As far as i remember, i was only young., i am sure it was a 'Bernard Sunley job. The entrance had a sloping drive and the ground floor was all garage spaces. I visited it many times, when my dad had to go on site.I would never have believed that the project would be in the news all these years later.

I am quiet surprised how this is hitting home to a number of TV forum members, growing up in this estate, family and friends, even a LFB officer posting info first hand.  I started my career at the RBK&C and have some recollection of this estate.  Nearby Trellick Tower sticks in the mind as being the real problem block in those days and I see from aerial video that that is still standing.

[steven100]

Just now, Khon Kaen Dave said:

I don't know if this was terrorism. My daughter, a fire fighter, called there yesterday, told me that their intel was, that it was an electrical appliance that went up

 A fridge I think

 

maybe the fridge was fiddled ... wiring altered  or something ....

fridges don't catch fire for nothing  ?

[Khon Kaen Dave]

1 minute ago, steven100 said:

maybe the fridge was fiddled ... wiring altered  or something ....

fridges don't catch fire for nothing  ?

Maybe sabotage. Maybe self repairing. Human error? Eventually it will be revealed

 But the thing I think about, is how much of this can/will be covered up