U.S. Navy destroyer, Philippines merchant vessel collide off Japan

[melvinmelvin]

 

Court proceedings in the aftermath of last year destroyer crashes;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/17/homicide-charges-charges-for-mccain-fitzgerald-commanders/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 01-17-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Some views on how the homicide charges against the two skippers may affect the US Navy in the future:

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/21/how-homicide-charges-for-two-skippers-will-shake-up-the-entire-navy/

 

[manarak]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Some views on how the homicide charges against the two skippers may affect the US Navy in the future:

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/21/how-homicide-charges-for-two-skippers-will-shake-up-the-entire-navy/

 

today, there is far too much emotion involved in the management of serious matters.

[melvinmelvin]

 

From the ongoing legal proceedings following last year's destroyer crashes:

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/14/hearing-for-former-fitzgerald-commanding-officer-canceled/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 05.14.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

More from the proceedings;

 

(this one os interesting, certification of crew missing the required competence)

 

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/24/navy-chief-gets-busted-down-in-rank-at-mccain-collision-court-martial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 05.24.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Here is what happened to the officer in command during the crash of the destroyer that crashed off Singapore;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/25/former-mccain-co-sentenced-at-court-martial-for-fatal-collision/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NEW NAV 05.25.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

From the court case against the commander of the destroyer that crashed off Singapore,

apparently family of those perished take part.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/30/what-the-hell-was-he-thinking-families-of-mccain-sailors-tear-into-former-co-at-court-martial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 05.30.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Some parties may avoid court-martial;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/06/08/heres-how-two-fitzgerald-officers-could-avoid-court-martial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 060818&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Families of some of the sailors that perished in the crash off Japan are not happy with the Navy's doings;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/ship-collisions/2018/06/17/one-year-after-the-fitzgerald-collision-the-families-of-the-fallen-grieve-and-search-for-answers/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 061818&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Homicide charges against the commander of the destroyer that crashed off Japan; dropped:

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/06/19/navy-drops-negligent-homicide-charge-against-fitzgerald-co/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 061918&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Chief of the destroyer that crashed just off Japan pleads not guilty to charges;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/07/10/former-fitzgerald-co-pleads-not-guilty-to-charges-in-connection-to-fatal-collision/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 071018&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

More read re court martial and the destroyer that ceashed off the coast of Japan

 

https://www.navytimes.com/home/left-column/2018/07/23/is-this-navy-officer-being-held-accountable-for-negligence-or-railroaded/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New Campaign&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

According to this it will probably take most of next year before before one can see the end of the cases . . .

 

[melvinmelvin]

hope this thread will be kept open

there is still a host of court cases waiting re these crashes, will surface later this year and early next year

 

 

[manarak]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

an off topic (kinda) remark from me

I have said earlier in this thread that navy officers are not good at driving or handling boats

I got a lot of pepper and flak for my comments

the  US Navy has, in essence, concluded as me, they are useless at driving, don't even know the rules of the road

 

now,

very early this morning a navy frigate, in Norway, crashed into a fully loaded crude oil tanker

in one of the Norwegian fiords, why? nobody knows - so far

but it is crystal clear to everybody, including the navy, that the tanker had right of way

 

the tanker - some scratches

the frigate - very severe damage, they ran the frigate ashore, beached it - to avoid sinking

 

the tanker - pilot and a nanny tug at the bum

frigate - no pilot

 

navies around the world have challenges

 

reading through what has been written about these collisions, there are 3 things standing out:

1- there is a need for Navy bridge officers to be certified in civilian navigation procedures. Not knowing the right of way is absolutely unacceptable for someone steering a ship.

2- the ships' basic controls need to be simplified and better designed for clarity. Computer games have much better interfaces than the Navy's classified "secret" ship systems.

3- I'm unsure if it has always been that way or not, but it seems micromanagement is paralyzing officers, who rather than taking action to avoid potential danger prefer to do nothing to avoid being criticized if they do a small mistake while they are in charge. maybe it's time to review promotion criteria. to me, an officer who has never been criticized for his actions is suspect.

Edited November 8, 2018 by manarak

[melvinmelvin]

41 minutes ago, manarak said:

 

reading through what has been written about these collisions, there are 3 things standing out:

1- there is a need for Navy bridge officers to be certified in civilian navigation procedures. Not knowing the right of way is absolutely unacceptable for someone steering a ship.

2- the ships' basic controls need to be simplified and better designed for clarity. Computer games have much better interfaces than the Navy's classified "secret" ship systems.

3- I'm unsure if it has always been that way or not, but it seems micromanagement is paralyzing officers, who rather than taking action to avoid potential danger prefer to do nothing to avoid being criticized if they do a small mistake while they are in charge. maybe it's time to review promotion criteria. to me, an officer who has never been criticized for his actions is suspect.

yes, think you are on to smth here

 

I don't know - but I can easily figure that the user interface on navy ships is not good

 

modern US destroyers are very complex machines

takes a whole  lot of effort to master them

 

officers get credit for mastering varying weapon systems to excellence

likewise stealth and detection system and communication systems

shooting down aircraft systems etc

 

driving the boat in a top notch manner doesn't earn you any points

hence, spending time and effort on becoming a good sailor and ship handler does not earn you stripes

 

 

[Scott]

Troll post and replies removed.   Continue and face a suspension.

 

[Kiwiken]

One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey

[EVENKEEL]

54 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey

The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will.

[lannarebirth]

4 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will.

All those lookouts, collision avoidance, communications and radar officers, helmsmen, bearing takers, is one of the reasons Naval officers are such poor seamen. Reevant information of relative speed, relative bearing, distance and depth is spread out too much. Collision avoidance sytems are useful in very high traffic areas but most encounters a watch officer should be able to acquire all this data and act on it himself. Assuming he knows the Inland/International Rules of the Road of course.

 

I've had encounters with US Naval ships in the Channel Islands, Tokyo Wan and the Strait of Hormuz. All hailed me for information and instructions to change course. They were wrong in every case and I cited relevant rules to explain why they were wrong. One of those encounters was as a midshipman and I made an aircraft carrier change course. That was kinda cool.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will.

sophisticated electronics - good stuff, but essential that one fully understand the inherent limitations of the various gadgets

 

as said above, looking out the window is king,

eyes and ears are very good navigational aids

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey

yes, scarey

 

not only one time, off Tokyo, but also a few months later off Singapore,

the latter in broad daylight if I remember correctly - probably bad situation awareness combined with unhealthy ship handling

 

the same type of destroyer was involved in an encounter with a tanker close to Hormuz, darkness,

no fatalities no severe damage I think

 

 

[lannarebirth]

On 7/22/2017 at 8:35 PM, jaggiss said:

Until??

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

in extremis

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and the replies have been removed.  This is not about a recent shipwreck in Norway.

 

A post commenting on moderation has been removed. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by metisdead

[melvinmelvin]

 

The defense team for the skipper, Mr Benson, requests that the judges drop the court martial against Benson.

Claiming that the top management in the navy has made a fair trial impossible.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/11/16/defense-team-navy-brass-made-it-impossible-for-former-fitzgerald-skipper-to-get-fair-trial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy Times 11-16-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup 

 

[EVENKEEL]

For those of us who make our living standing our 4 hr bridge watches conning a ship around the world, well it's mind boggling to think this could have happened. I work for a Company who doesn't always transmit on AIS and I've had countless times I've had to call a ship when I'm "stand on" and ask their intention. At 4 NM they still aren't aware of the situation. Things can turn ugly real fast if you're not on top of things alllll the time. 

[Stargeezr]

That big three letter word may be cause of some of these collisions, EGO, and I believe the US navy and maybe other navies, has an over supply of Ego.

Geezer

[manarak]

49 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

The defense team for the skipper, Mr Benson, requests that the judges drop the court martial against Benson.

Claiming that the top management in the navy has made a fair trial impossible.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/11/16/defense-team-navy-brass-made-it-impossible-for-former-fitzgerald-skipper-to-get-fair-trial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy Times 11-16-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup 

 

 

his defense team is not wrong.

 

but there are other issues.

 

what do you all think about being given a ship with a crew that hasn't performed mandatory certifications, but is still given missions?

should a CO refuse to carry out the mission as long as training isn't up to the navy's official standards?

Edited November 17, 2018 by manarak

[melvinmelvin]

13 minutes ago, manarak said:

 

his defense team is not wrong.

 

but there are other issues.

 

what do you all think about being given a ship with a crew that hasn't performed mandatory certifications, but is still given missions?

should a CO refuse to carry out the mission as long as training isn't up to the navy's official standards?

A CO might get away, flak free, with that today - after the accidents,

but it would have been quite problematic 2 years ago - me thinks

[oztaurus]

On 6/17/2017 at 1:49 PM, klauskunkel said:

brake failure?

... and the driver ran away

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

The defense team for the skipper, Mr Benson, requests that the judges drop the court martial against Benson.

Claiming that the top management in the navy has made a fair trial impossible.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/11/16/defense-team-navy-brass-made-it-impossible-for-former-fitzgerald-skipper-to-get-fair-trial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy Times 11-16-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup 

 

Pretty damning evidence that the CNO and VCNO are hell-bent of fire-walling their sloping-shoulders. An ex- USN friend says that the overall situation of how the Navy delivers Commander's Intent in the Pacific fleet is dire, especially how "Force Generation – the process of maintaining, training and certifying naval forces" is being implemented. Sailors go through a pressured regimen of training that is little more than a 'box checking' exercise. These do little to encourage the mastery of any particular skill and understanding of basic principles and thus imperils crew discipline and basic on-deck command and control. If there's a lack of focus and in-depth understanding by the Captain due to some incoherent, incremental certification process that's mismanaged by a fundamentally disengaged shore command, then in my opinion, there's little hope for basic seamanship at sea and accidents will happen.