Getting a Thai Taxpayer Identification Number - Downside?

[TerraplaneGuy]

Hi All,

 

I understand that the Thai taxpayer ID number is a 13-digit number that we can get at the Thai revenue office.  My question is, if we don't have any Thai income and therefore don't owe Thai taxes, is there any downside to getting this number?  Will it put us "in the tax system" in Thailand in a way that will generate red tape, filing requirements, etc.?  My understanding is that as long as we have no income generated in Thailand (my situation), we don't need to file a Thai tax return, but does having the number create any requirements?

 

Practical questions:  To get the number, I see you need your passport and possibly a house registration book.  If we are renting and so don't have such a book, is it a problem?  How long does it take to get the number or is it generated while you wait at the office?

 

Background:  I'd be getting the number for U.S. tax reasons.  To claim the benefit of the Thai-U.S. tax treaty to reduce withholding tax on U.S. income, we have to file an IRS Form W-8BEN.  It requires entry of the Thai taxpayer identification number.  

 

 

Thanks!

 

TG

[claffey]

No. It won't affect you in any way. I have had a number for 13 years and I've never had any contact from the tax office. I've even claimed back tax on a few occasions. If you have nothing to hide and are here legally it will have no impact on you.

[1SteveC]

32 minutes ago, claffey said:

No. It won't affect you in any way. I have had a number for 13 years and I've never had any contact from the tax office. I've even claimed back tax on a few occasions. If you have nothing to hide and are here legally it will have no impact on you.

 

If you have claimed tax back here, you must have been paying tax here. It seems the OP wants to not pay tax here, but use the tax id to avoid paying some tax in the USA.

[TerraplaneGuy]

I'm OP - right, I will owe no tax in Thailand.  Getting the number is strictly for purposes of claiming reduced tax in the U.S under the treaty.

[mahjongguy]

"If you have claimed tax back here, you must have been paying tax here."

 

Anyone who has fixed accounts here has 15% withheld. Getting a Thai tax ID is the first step in getting that withholding back.

[mahjongguy]

" To get the number, I see you need your passport and possibly a house registration book.  If we are renting and so don't have such a book, is it a problem?  How long does it take to get the number or is it generated while you wait at the office? "

 

You will need a residency letter from Immigration, just as you would for a driver's license.

 

The TIN will be generated and presented to you on the spot.

[Tanoshi]

10 minutes ago, mahjongguy said:

You will need a residency letter from Immigration, just as you would for a driver's license.

 

The TIN will be generated and presented to you on the spot.

 

Didn't require a CofR at my office.

Passport and copies of the house owners Tabien Baan and ID card were acceptable.

[mahjongguy]

I should have mentioned, my application was made at the Jomtien office.

[Tanoshi]

37 minutes ago, mahjongguy said:

"If you have claimed tax back here, you must have been paying tax here."

 

Anyone who has fixed accounts here has 15% withheld. Getting a Thai tax ID is the first step in getting that withholding back.

Absolutely correct.

 

Most Countries have reciprocal agreements regarding double taxation.

If your income is generated and taxed in another Country, what you transfer here is not taxable.

 

If you have fixed term accounts the interest is automatically taxed at 15%.

The interest is regarded as income generated from within Thailand, but as interest paid is below Thailand's personal tax allowance, you are entitled to annually reclaim the tax automatically deducted.

[TerraplaneGuy]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

 

Didn't require a CofR at my office.

Passport and copies of the house owners Tabien Baan and ID card were acceptable.

Has any non-Thai applied for the tax ID number at the Bang Rak Revenue office near Silom or any other Bangkok office?  Did they require anything other than a passport?  I'm a tenant so no tabien baan.  I hope I don't have to go to Immigration for a residency letter.  I could bring my lease if that would help.

 

Btw please can we keep the posts here on topic?  It's about any downside to getting a TIN and the procedure for getting one.  If people want to discuss tax refunds etc. that would be a good topic for a separate string.  Thanks :)

[new2here]

I got my Tax ID at the office on Sathorn (Thai CC building) and it couldn't have been any easier.
Required:
1) Passport (original)
2) Current Work Permit
3) Copy of employment contract

The Rev Dept clerk barely glanced at the contract, but made copies of the work permit. My address listed on my Tax ID card also shows my employers address (that was driven off the work permit)
I was never asked about any kind of residence certificate or similar.

In and out in about :10 or so. No fees of any type.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Crisu]

I have no income in TH, not working and rent only a condo?
Can i get a tax no. too

[partington]

I went to a tax office in BKK  near Asoke six months or so ago to get a tax number.

 

As I'm retired, all I had was a passport, plus my lease and a utility bill for proof of  address (neither of which were asked for). I said I needed the tax number "for bank", as I had read that you can get tax refunds for tax taken from interest, and so I thought they would be familiar with this (though I actually needed it to open an offshore account with Santander Jersey).

 

They were extremely pleasant, helped me fill in the form, and generated the card and number on the spot, whole thing about 20 min from beginning to end.

Edited June 23, 2017 by partington

[tuk75]

Everybody can get a taxid, just to apply, I am using my pink id card as tax id, 13 numbers, but you have to registered it at amphur.

 

[bangkokairportlink]

So we can get a tax number without any revenue, and can we get a document saying that we have no revenue ? Thanks.

[Briggsy]

The OP asked for downside. I see 2 minor disadvantages.

 

1. The tax office may call you in for an interview, particularly if you are of working age, have a tax number in Thailand and not paying income tax. This is to ascertain your situation and find out what you are living off. This is a waste of time, travel costs, etc. The Revenue may accuse you of working illegally with no evidence whatsoever. This is stressful. Happened to me.

 

2. A tax return will automatically be sent out. If no taxable income in Thailand is received in the period referred to in the tax return, then there is no requirement to complete the tax return. But will the Revenue department flag this up as suspicious?

[TerraplaneGuy]

1 hour ago, Briggsy said:

The OP asked for downside. I see 2 minor disadvantages.

 

1. The tax office may call you in for an interview, particularly if you are of working age, have a tax number in Thailand and not paying income tax. This is to ascertain your situation and find out what you are living off. This is a waste of time, travel costs, etc. The Revenue may accuse you of working illegally with no evidence whatsoever. This is stressful. Happened to me.

 

2. A tax return will automatically be sent out. If no taxable income in Thailand is received in the period referred to in the tax return, then there is no requirement to complete the tax return. But will the Revenue department flag this up as suspicious?

Thanks.  

 

1.  May I ask how old you are?  I'm 63, presumably not "working age" in their view.

 

2.  About the tax return, I assume they mail it to the address you gave when you got your ID number (which I understand is on the card they give you).   So if you change address, is there an obligation to go back to the Revenue office and tell them?  I imagine it wouldn't make a difference if (as in my case) you have no Thai income and won't be filing the report anyway, so I probably wouldn't bother to update my address.  Anyone have experience with this?

[Tanoshi]

3 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Thanks.  

 

1.  May I ask how old you are?  I'm 63, presumably not "working age" in their view.

 

2.  About the tax return, I assume they mail it to the address you gave when you got your ID number (which I understand is on the card they give you).   So if you change address, is there an obligation to go back to the Revenue office and tell them?  I imagine it wouldn't make a difference if (as in my case) you have no Thai income and won't be filing the report anyway, so I probably wouldn't bother to update my address.  Anyone have experience with this?

I'm retired, working age, although not working. I've been registered for 4 years just to reclaim my taxable interest deductions back.

Never been questioned or interviewed. I think Briggsy is an exception and something must have aroused their suspicions.

 

If you have no Thai income, why bother registering.

If you changed address in your home Country, wouldn't you be obliged to notify certain government departments.

Other than Immigration there is no obligation to notify Inland revenue your Bank, the DLT, or any other government office you may deal with,  but it's in your interest to do so.

[TerraplaneGuy]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

If you have no Thai income, why bother registering.

I'm the OP.  As mentioned before, I have no Thai income but I'd be getting a Thai ID because the U.S. demands it if I want to claim a reduced withholding tax rate on U.S. source income under the Thai-U.S. tax treaty.  So there is a real benefit to me in the U.S. if I get the Thai ID but I'm asking whether there are any downsides here in Thailand that I might not be aware of.

[Briggsy]

42 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Thanks.  

 

1.  May I ask how old you are?  I'm 63, presumably not "working age" in their view.

 

2.  About the tax return, I assume they mail it to the address you gave when you got your ID number (which I understand is on the card they give you).   So if you change address, is there an obligation to go back to the Revenue office and tell them?  I imagine it wouldn't make a difference if (as in my case) you have no Thai income and won't be filing the report anyway, so I probably wouldn't bother to update my address.  Anyone have experience with this?

1. At the time of the interview, I was 43. (I had previously worked in Thailand with Work Permit). At the age of 43, I was just claiming back some withholding tax. This aroused their suspicion.

 

2. Yes, yes, yes and yes. My experience is if you don't fill in the tax return for the next year (because you have no taxable income in Thailand) there is no follow-up.

[Tanoshi]

1 minute ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

I'm the OP.  As mentioned before, I have no Thai income but I'd be getting a Thai ID because the U.S. demands it if I want to claim a reduced withholding tax rate on U.S. source income under the Thai-U.S. tax treaty.  So there is a real benefit to me in the U.S. if I get the Thai ID but I'm asking whether there are any downsides here in Thailand that I might not be aware of.

 

I've never experienced a downside to it.

A lot of local expats registered when learning the benefit of reclaiming tax.

In 4 years I have never heard one complain of a downside, only the upside.

 

I suspect there must be other US citizens who have registered for the same reason you describe, but I've never read topics on TV regarding this concern. If there was a downside to your situation, I think it would have already been posted on TV.

[TerraplaneGuy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

I suspect there must be other US citizens who have registered for the same reason you describe, but I've never read topics on TV regarding this concern. If there was a downside to your situation, I think it would have already been posted on TV.

Thanks.  I'm not a U.S. citizen but I have accounts there so have to deal with their tax system.  As for the lack of postings on this issue, the U.S. has tightened up just in the last year or so on this.  They did not used to require a foreign (e. g. Thai) tax ID number to get the benefits of the treaty, you just had to prove you were resident here.  I've been doing it for years like that but now they demand an ID number.  So it's possible that we will be hearing more questions like mine as people with U.S. accounts discover the new requirement.

[userabcd]

I got a tax number from the local tax office. Passport with visa and extension of stay stamps and proof of address using my credit card statement. In and out in about 5 minutes with TIN.

[TerraplaneGuy]

8 minutes ago, userabcd said:

I got a tax number from the local tax office. Passport with visa and extension of stay stamps and proof of address using my credit card statement. In and out in about 5 minutes with TIN.

Great.  Where is your local office?

[mahjongguy]

18 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

So we can get a tax number without any revenue, and can we get a document saying that we have no revenue ?

No, they will not provide you a document saying you have no revenue. Nor would the US IRS do that for you.

 

If you had some revenue, even 100 baht of bank interest, then you could file a tax return, pay no tax, and offer that as "proof" of almost no income. Could you make a filing even if you had zero income? I doubt it.   

[Tanoshi]

19 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

So we can get a tax number without any revenue, and can we get a document saying that we have no revenue ? Thanks.

Citizens and residents are exempt tax from earnings under 150,000 PA.

Then there are a whole lot of allowances you can claim on top of that, so tax starts around 20,000 BHT a month.

The only reason non working foreigners register is to claim tax back.

[jayboy]

Liability to Thai tax for residents (180 days+) is not restricted to income generated in Thailand.If you enter the Thai tax system, that's the potential downside - ie funds brought into Thailand being taxable.Lots of detail about distinction between current income and savings etc all of which is available on this forum.Is there much of a practical risk? Probably not but it's not completely negligible.It's risk enough for many savvy retired expatriates to keep clear of the Thai tax system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maestro]

The discussion has gone way too far off topic and I am going to clean it up a bit. What were the OP's questions?

1. Is there a downside to getting a Thai taxpayer identification number?
2. To get the number, I see you need your passport and possibly a house registration book.  If we are renting and so don't have such a book, is it a problem?  How long does it take to get the number or is it generated while you wait at the office?

Please note that there is no question about a work permit or about claiming a tax refund.

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, mahjongguy said:

No, they will not provide you a document saying you have no revenue. Nor would the US IRS do that for you.

 

If you had some revenue, even 100 baht of bank interest, then you could file a tax return, pay no tax, and offer that as "proof" of almost no income. Could you make a filing even if you had zero income? I doubt it.   

 

Yes, you can file a Thai tax return if you have no income.

[Maestro]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

The only reason non working foreigners register is to claim tax back.

 

As the starting post of this topic shows, there is another reason to register for a Thai tax ID, ie for a person subject to tax payment in the USA to meet a specific requirement of the IRS in a specific circumstance, ie  filing the IRS Form W-8BEN.