Thailand to get tough on foreigners working without work permits, employers also targeted

[dbrenn]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Thailand's policy is similar to that of most other developing or developed sovereign countries - you are still very welcome if you have substantial money to invest, or a skill that benefits the country and doesn't compete with the local workforce.

 

Penalties are similar too - most developed countries impose legal sanctions on both the employer and the employee for breaking the rules.

 

Sure, it used to be a lot easier to fly under the radar, but rules and enforcement seem to be tightening everywhere else too. It's a bit unfair to single out Thailand here ....

 

[debate101]

Most having  been written over a succession of unaccountable, authoritarian governments, Thai laws are largely intended to be punitive rather than socially beneficial, and their enforcement only occurs when it benefits the low-level enforcers or puts the squeeze on those not in the good graces of their commanders.

 

In this case, the intention is more important than the ramifications. Government officials frequently claim that foreigners "understand them," but I'm certain they've gotten wind of the general attitude of expats towards their "plans" and "achievements," either through monitoring forums such as this one or viewing the likes/dislikes on politically sensitive Bangkok Post articles.

 

They will eventually get you one way or another if you in any way threaten their machinations. Those who hide it well or actually don't care/support the regime can probably hold out longer.

[kwilco]

Re Teachers and other expats - About <deleted> time!

 

However it is not as clear cut as the ever over simplistic authorities seem to think.

This is yet another ill-thought out dictum.

 

The work permit and visa laws in Thailand are so bureaucratic, archaic and ill-fitted for the current nature of expats working in Thailand that a lot of people who are trying to work legitimately in the country will suffer.

 

For instance just about EVERY SINGLE TEACHER working in corporate environment is technically breaking the law as their work permits are location, job and company specific...if they work at another address they are in breach of this.

What is needed is an accompanying review and reform of the work permit and Visa laws regarding foreigners who wish to take up skilled or professional positions here.

 

But they haven’t done this.....so literally hundreds of teachers could be deported.

This will not only be those working on incorrect visas with no work permits but those who have jumped through all the often inexplicable hoops demanded by immigration and DoL.

 

On top of this are the hundreds of those working in IT in Bangkok - subcontracted to major internet companies they live on tourist visas often with no office so undetectable to the DoL or immigration unless they actually bother to check multiple re-entry on tourist visas or non imm ”O”  and education visas

 

 

Re Teachers and other expats - About <deleted> time!

 

However it is not as clear cut as the ever over simplistic authorities seem to think.

This is yet another ill-thought out dictum.

 

The work permit and visa laws in Thailand are so bureaucratic, archaic and ill-fitted for the current nature of expats working in Thailand that a lot of people who are trying to work legitimately in the country will suffer.

 

For instance just about EVERY SINGLE TEACHER working in corporate environment is technically breaking the law as their work permits are location, job and company specific...if they work at another address they are in breach of this.

What is needed is an accompanying review and reform of the work permit and Visa laws regarding foreigners who wish to take up skilled or professional positions here.

 

But they haven’t done this.....so literally hundreds of teachers could be deported.

This will not only be those working on incorrect visas with no work permits but those who have jumped through all the often inexplicable hoops demanded by immigration and DoL.

 

On top of this are the hundreds of those working in IT in Bangkok - subcontracted to major internet companies they live on tourist visas often with no office so undetectable to the DoL or immigration unless they actually bother to check multiple re-entry on tourist visas or non imm ”O”  and education visas

 

 

 

 

[stevew407]

17 hours ago, robblok said:

 

Too much work to catch a digital nomad and proving the case.. easier to hold them out by not granting visa's

I see a very changing world.  I would think Digital Nomads would be welcome? Spending money on goods and services?  Still trying to get a handle on the whole concept and application though

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, stevew407 said:

I see a very changing world.  I would think Digital Nomads would be welcome? Spending money on goods and services?  Still trying to get a handle on the whole concept and application though

Sure I would think so too, as a digital nomad only brings in cash and does take jobs away from Thais. Its also highly unlikely that they go after digital nomads who keep their heads down, you can't really catch a digital nomad. He only needs a computer and usually has money coming in from abroad. Its all far too hard to prove, so if they want to do something about it and block them, then visa's are the way to go. Looking for them is just not effective. 

 

That was my point that really looking for them is too hard, just making it hard for younger people to get visa's (and it is unless you go for elite visa) would do the trick. 

[Thai Ron]

 

12 hours ago, alphaflight said:

What rules? I'd love to know how you get anything done or even stay here following the rules. Please enlighten me..... 

What a silly remark.

Most of us are here on visas/extensions of stay that are commensurate with the nature of our purpose for being here. That's within the rules, is it not?

I got parental rights over my daughter by going to court and petitioning for those rights as required to qualify for the yearly extension of stay. That's within the rules, is it not?

 

I'm sure you'll come up with some BS anecdote about being handcuffed at immigration while doing your 90 day report ostensibly because you helped a cleaning lady by moving a chair so she could mop around it and were therefore "working" without a permit. Rebels without a cause don't last long here

[BangkokReady]

13 hours ago, petedk said:

Mahidol are advertising for a lecturer with PhD. Salary 31,000

Are they expecting to tempt people away from Britain where a junior lecturer could get about 1.3 million baht a month?

 

Also, isn't 31,000 less than ESL teachers in schools get? 

 

Crazy how little they pay teachers. How is that supposed to build a good education system?

[CLW]

 
depends on expectations and lifestyle. for me no chance.

Where's​ the problem with 35k per month?
Of course, if you live in a farang ghetto on Sukhumvit or Silom, smoke and drink, eat farang food everyday it is impossible.
Do you know how much many Thai people earn each month?
Ridiculous and superior mindset some people have here on TVF

[anon4637435435]

I think the heading should say "MORE ANNOYING" in place of "TOUGH" Makes more sense.. Thais cant even organize their own illegal workers in there own country. The most obvious being roadside tax avoiding restaurants and coffee shops. I have a restaurant at the end of my road that is a Danger hazard. The Tax people come through to ask for taxes for the signs and such and the hiso knob ex mayor says oh, just let them be... Great! So i will be paying for those future road accidents hospital bills that im assuming never get paid considering the financial position of the hospitals at the moment. Know one dead yet but a few broken bones.

[Thai Ron]

5 minutes ago, CLW said:

Where's the problem with 35k per month?
Of course, if you live in a farang ghetto on Sukhumvit or Silom, smoke and drink, eat farang food everyday it is impossible.
Do you know how much many Thai people earn each month?
Ridiculous and superior mindset some people have here on TVF

I wouldn't even open my eyes for 35000 a month let alone get out of bed for it.

If you want to live on crap food in a crap room, never have holidays back home because you can't afford the airfare and wing it when it comes to medical bills, then 35K will do.

Otherwise, forget it.

How would you save money on that?

That kind of money is only good if you intend to or are able to remain in Thailand indefinitely and have access to credit, loans, mortgages, etc.

If you do, you can live very well indeed if only because you've recreated a Western life plan (work, borrow to the hilt and become a debt slave)

[elliss]

16 hours ago, balo said:

We are not working in Thailand , we just live here as tourists. Pay taxes to home country etc. 

 

 

 

  Spot on.  Why  come to Thailand to work ?.

  If  you do not have the finances to live in the kingdom as a visitor ,

go home and work, or claim job seekers allowance .

[CLW]

I wouldn't even open my eyes for 35000 a month let alone get out of bed for it.
If you want to live on crap food in a crap room, never have holidays back home because you can't afford the airfare and wing it when it comes to medical bills, then 35K will do.
Otherwise, forget it.
How would you save money on that?
That kind of money is only good if you intend to or are able to remain in Thailand indefinitely and have access to credit, loans, mortgages, etc.
If you do, you can live very well indeed if only because you've recreated a Western life plan (work, borrow to the hilt and become a debt slave)

You are exactly that type that comes to my mind with elitary and superior mindset.
Probably you need a nanny for everything, cleaning​, washing, cooking?
I don't live in a crap room and eat crap food.
Probably best for you to leave Thailand as it seems you can't fit in here very well.

[LivinLOS]

9 hours ago, jspill said:

If the work is something physically tied to thailand that you couldn't do anywhere else, maybe, if not then no.

 

Obviously someone with a blog about cats doesn't need a permit when they decide to be a tourist in thailand for a few years, and while here keep tinkering with their blog and cash out their adsense revenue to a thai bank to spend it here. You can keep posting this for 100 years and still those people will never have any problems. (It's been almost 10 years already).

 

'Repeated by the labour department over and over' - where? You only ever link one or two third party phuketgazette soundbites where one or two individuals says yeah online work is work. 

 

But obviously in those individuals' minds they're thinking online phuket tour guide, online seller of something a thai person could sell, etc. etc. There isn't any definitive word on location independent online work. Wouldn't they mention it in this article if it was an issue? 

 

If they ever really crack down on it, it will likely come at the same time as them creating some kind of e-visa for online freelancers like Germany or Estonia, and making nomads pay taxes, so that rather than scare off tourists who check their work emails, they can just move us to more appropriate visas. 

 

'Why do you think there are nomad umbrella companies ??' - to make tons of money out of people that worry too much. 

Simply factually untrue.. And the mark of someone who has is desperate to read things that are clearly not what was said. .. The labour deptment have explicitly commented on 'online work' without any local presence, affiliate marketing, blogging, etc.. 

It isnt possible to say it more clearly or more explicitly than this.. Reading it your way, when the question and answer is written the exact other, is simple denial. 

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

Quote

No, it isn’t, as long as the uploading is for fun or to share on social media networks publicly for free. However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. However, if you activated the ads before entering the country, but still received revenue once entering the country for your holiday, then this would not be considered as working while staying in Thailand.

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

 

Quote

 

Is earning money through online advertising, website affiliate marketing or operating a business that has only an online presence whilst staying in Thailand considered working?

 

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

Answered on Thursday, November 25, 2010 | 03:56 PM

Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

 

Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.

 

 

[Thai Ron]

1 minute ago, CLW said:

You are exactly that type that comes to my mind with elitary and superior mindset.
Probably you need a nanny for everything, cleaning, washing, cooking?
I don't live in a crap room and eat crap food.
Probably best for you to leave Thailand as it seems you can't fit in here very well.

Weird logic whereby I should leave Thailand because I need a lot more than 35,000 baht a month to live comfortably but I'll surmise that this kind of thinking is part of the reason why you pull down such a derisory monthly sum.

Seriously, though, how has inverted snobbery worked for you throughout your life? Obviously not well since you clearly have an inferiority complex.

 

BTW, I've fitted in very well here so far (9 years) no nannies, cooks, drivers or maids.

[LivinLOS]

10 hours ago, balo said:

 

No I don't , this has been discussed to death. 

 

Anyone in Thailand , on holiday or just retired people living here can still use internet for answering emails , doing Skype calls etc ,  if it's private calls or business calls , doesn't matter , it got nothing to do with Thailand, you just happen to be here and enjoying life.  Internet is a part of life.  

 

My money are spent in Thailand, but my foreign credit card belongs to my company in Europe. 

 

 

 

 

The labour department has very publicly stated otherwise. 

[Echo Tango]

Withholding important documents (ie: passport) from a foreign worker is a Trafficking In Humans violation and is against international law! 100,000 THB fine!? That's all!? Only in Thailand!

[LannaGuy]

14 hours ago, hobobo said:

Well legitimately married Thais don't get these rights in the UK, so why should Thais do it over here?

Yes they do... where did you get that from?  once passport issued they can work like anyone else. Anyone can buy land and a house too even a FOOTBALL CLUB.

[LannaGuy]

17 hours ago, balo said:

We are not working in Thailand , we just live here as tourists. Pay taxes to home country etc. 

 

 

 

Nice try and wishful thinking if you make money here then you are working HERE

[Thai Ron]

2 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Nice try and wishful thinking if you make money here then you are working HERE

Rubbish.

What if the value of your condo increases? That's making money.

What if the value of stock you bought here increases? That's making money.

 

[LannaGuy]

3 minutes ago, Thai Ron said:

Rubbish.

What if the value of your condo increases? That's making money.

What if the value of stock you bought here increases? That's making money.

 

post 196

 

This has been raised 100s times - it IS working

 

In Europe and USA increase in value of your living accommodation is never considered 'work' unless you own many. 

[Thai Ron]

10 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

post 196

 

This has been raised 100s times - it IS working

 

In Europe and USA increase in value of your living accommodation is never considered 'work' unless you own many. 

So why don't you need a work permit to buy a condo?

So why don't you need a work permit to buy equities?

You don't really know what you're talking about but you're trying to pass your musings off as fact.

[Echo Tango]

Exactly this.
So many posters just like to piss and moan about anything the Thai Gov says, yet they seem to conveniently forget - they are in Thailands Play pen, play by their rules or bugger off.

Bugger off, eh? Expats get upset about these issues because there is no reciprocity between Thailand and their home countries. Thais have so many benefits and opportunities in my home country, the United States, than I'll ever have here in Thailand! It's simply not fair and this is a good forum to vent your frustration about it.

[stingray]

It's time to leave!

[maxpower]

6 minutes ago, stingray said:

It's time to leave!

Beware of large swinging door on your way out.

[Bangkok Barry]

19 hours ago, marquess said:

What do they care, it seems that the Thai establishment are always going out of their way to make life harder for foreigners; this is just another example. Legitimately married foreigners ought to be given the right of residency and the right to work.

And in Europe they have the right to vote in local elections, married to a local or not. Can you imagine that here? No, I thought not.

[little mary sunshine]

2 hours ago, BangkokReady said:

Are they expecting to tempt people away from Britain where a junior lecturer could get about 1.3 million baht a month?

 

Also, isn't 31,000 less than ESL teachers in schools get? 

 

Crazy how little they pay teachers. How is that supposed to build a good education system?

Even craziest how many unqualified people are posing 

as teachers in Thailand

[hawker9000]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Simply factually untrue.. And the mark of someone who has is desperate to read things that are clearly not what was said. .. The labour deptment have explicitly commented on 'online work' without any local presence, affiliate marketing, blogging, etc.. 

It isnt possible to say it more clearly or more explicitly than this.. Reading it your way, when the question and answer is written the exact other, is simple denial. 

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

 

 

Some slow learners simply have to the hammer fall directly on them before they get it.  Until then they'll remain in complete denial.  Don't waste your breath.

[Thai Ron]

Whinge, whinge, whinge.

 

Reciprocity between the first world and a developing country is pie in the sky.

Those that don't like it can just sod off.

Thais living in the US, Europe etc want to be there so they accept the requirements and meet the criteria.

Foreigners living in Thailand etc want to be here but even though they know the score coming in, they turn around after a few years and complain why, having married a deadbeat and, perhaps, sired offspring and discovered their finances are stretched, the Thai government won't make allowances for their poorly thought-out life decisions.

 

Sorry but NO!

If you can't cut it, you should ponder the wisdom of having children in your later years while on a fixed income or, if you're still of working age, you should consider returning home where you can earn more money to support your family.

The Thai government's priorities don't include foolish foreigners who over commit.

 

[DLock]

I am ok with this,

 

If you don't have the prerequisites to get a job and WP and be 100% legal and correct, or you can't get a long term tourist visa, and O-Visa, a Thai Elite Card or some other way to stay here legally...stop whining.

 

You knew this before coming...or very soon after. It's not new.

 

For the people that do everything correct, they have nothing to fear. 

 

<deleted>.

[Time Traveller]

22 minutes ago, DLock said:

I am ok with this,

 

If you don't have the prerequisites to get a job and WP and be 100% legal and correct, or you can't get a long term tourist visa, and O-Visa, a Thai Elite Card or some other way to stay here legally...stop whining.

 

You knew this before coming...or very soon after. It's not new.

 

For the people that do everything correct, they have nothing to fear. 

 

 

That's pretty naive. Foreign employees have a lot to fear.  They are the ones that face the risk for jail time not the employer. And they are totally at the mercy of the Thai employer and their - mostly - inexperienced HR staff bluffing their way through the immigration and labor laws.

Ask people how many Thai companies had their work permit already issued on Day 1 of their employment.