What is considered work?

[paul18620]

3 hours ago, sinbin said:

I doubt very much many many rural Thais would know where to report a farang for illegally working. And even if they did I doubt they'd travel 200 km, round trip, to do it. Also I doubt the average Thai would know the basic laws regarding working here. Apparently Thais are the only ones who can work in agriculture? I suggest someone comes around here and arrest all the Cambodians working in the cassava fields.

Okay I will try and explain a bit better 

The local Thai person only needs to report you to the head man in the village or his family member that is in the police  and I am sure he would know how to get the official report done if you had upset this local.

Some provinces the local office isn't as far as 200 km.

mine is only 10 km away and if you had pissed them off so much I am sure the 200 km journey would be worth it for them as you would have to pass the brown envelope to them and I am sure it would cover the fuel cost and some more 

[owl sees all]

2 minutes ago, paul18620 said:

Okay I will try and explain a bit better 

The local Thai person only needs to report you to the head man in the village or his family member that is in the police  and I am sure he would know how to get the official report done if you had upset this local.

Some provinces the local office isn't as far as 200 km.

mine is only 10 km away and if you had pissed them off so much I am sure the 200 km journey would be worth it for them as you would have to pass the brown envelope to them and I am sure it would cover the fuel cost and some more 

OK - I hear you Paul. But what actually happens?

 

Say I was driving my wife around the villages for her to sell fish out of the pick up. That seems innocent enough to me. If a police/labour/immigration officer challenged me? Would I get fined on the spot or would I have to go to court. If I was caught a second time would I go to prison or get deported?

 

I am so worried about this I didn't even go to the farm to feed the dogs (work) tonight.

[jeab1980]

36 minutes ago, bsdthai said:

Pull your head out of the clouds. Its an example. Extreme and sarchastic, yes. But an example of how stupid this is becoming. Im making a point. Deal with it.

Pull your head out of your arse and deal with it 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I am so worried about this I didn't even go to the farm to feed the dogs (work) tonight.

That's probably overdoing things, a bit.

 

Overall, it's the kinds of things a farang might do that are particularly visible to others, out and around town or village, that have the potential to create an issue. Far less so doing something on your own private property where you're not necessarily visible to all.

 

Right now, the whole issue is in a tizzy because of the government's newly announced restrictions and penalties, and then the decision shortly thereafter to at least temporarily suspend enforcement of SOME of the new law -- not clear exactly which provisions they're suspending, though I'm guessing it's those relating to penalties against employers -- since they were the ones griping and have some clout, unlike the average worker.

 

If it were me, right now, I'd probably pass on driving around with the wife to sell stuff. And wait and see how the whole thing plays out. But I wouldn't change my routine at home.

 

PS - Technically, legally under the new law, a worker caught working without a lawful work permit could be arrested on the spot, fined, eventually sentenced to jail and/or deported. What really ends up happening in any particular illegal worker case that arises, who knows under Thai law.

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Henricus]

People who are on retirement visa can not work, when you want to work in Thailand do it legally, everybody know before they come to Thailand the rules about this 

[paul18620]

7 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

OK - I hear you Paul. But what actually happens?

 

Say I was driving my wife around the villages for her to sell fish out of the pick up. That seems innocent enough to me. If a police/labour/immigration officer challenged me? Would I get fined on the spot or would I have to go to court. If I was caught a second time would I go to prison or get deported?

 

I am so worried about this I didn't even go to the farm to feed the dogs (work) tonight.

Thing is at the end of the day you think its innocent ,but to the Thai people and the people in charge it is not ,there is no getting around it without the correct paperwork and the Thai company which costs a lot of money ,most people can't afford to do this so this is why they go undercover as such and if they do get caught then they have to pay the fine or bribe ,what ever you want to call it ,but there is also people who go un-deteted and go about there daily business with their wife and make money to stay here long term in the coffee shops or selling fish .

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, paul18620 said:

Thing is at the end of the day you think its innocent ,but to the Thai people and the people in charge it is not ,there is no getting around it without the correct paperwork and the Thai company which costs a lot of money ,most people can't afford to do this so this is why they go undercover as such and if they do get caught then they have to pay the fine or bribe ,what ever you want to call it ,but there is also people who go un-deteted and go about there daily business with their wife and make money to stay here long term in the coffee shops or selling fish .

 

My thinking about that is, if you're a single guy without any serious attachments, then maybe there's a level of risk that can be tolerated there.

 

But if you're a married guy with a wife and a family who rely on you for support and who are YOUR family with a home here, then my level of tolerable risk for getting caught and deported drops considerably. In that kind of situation, I really wouldn't want to be taking too many chances.

 

[jeab1980]

Sorry i have to say this if your so bloody worried about doing bits and pieces and are worried someone might talk to head man ect then obviously your not liked by someone. So keep your head down dont broadcast what you are doing and just do it. If some of you stopped acting as you come across on here superior then maybe you wouldn't have a problem eh!!

[owl sees all]

3 minutes ago, Henricus said:

People who are on retirement visa can not work, when you want to work in Thailand do it legally, everybody know before they come to Thailand the rules about this

I am on a marriage visa and I do not do any paid work as such. I teach the local children maths (arithmetic) at my home occasionally but that puts me out of pocket (willingly); drinks and crisps etc.

 

I reckon over the years I've paid Thai workers well over 2 Million Baht to do work for me on and around the farm. Sometimes I've worked with them to make sure things are done my way. I, like many others, have invested time, money, effort and good will into developing a farm, and farm house, that I'm proud of. I've also built a road of 320 metres which has opened up other areas.

 

My first reaction - if I was ever challenged - would be to argue the toss. Not wise I know and that would quickly end. I would just feel so demoralised after doing what I have for the village, as a whole, to be challenged and stopped for such pettiness.

 

/

[jeab1980]

25 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I am on a marriage visa and I do not do any paid work as such. I teach the local children maths (arithmetic) at my home occasionally but that puts me out of pocket (willingly); drinks and crisps etc.

 

I reckon over the years I've paid Thai workers well over 2 Million Baht to do work for me on and around the farm. Sometimes I've worked with them to make sure things are done my way. I, like many others, have invested time, money, effort and good will into developing a farm, and farm house, that I'm proud of. I've also built a road of 320 metres which has opened up other areas.

 

My first reaction - if I was ever challenged - would be to argue the toss. Not wise I know and that would quickly end. I would just feel so demoralised after doing what I have for the village, as a whole, to be challenged and stopped for such pettiness.

 

/

Which proves what ive just said. You did it beacuse you wanted to develope a farm for you and your family. But you would feel "demoralised after doing what i have done for the village "  So building a road for you which just happened to be helpful to villagers. you mean of course what you have done for yourself and family first and foremost and for that i applaud you. The by product may be helping other villagers with 320 meters of road but why should they feel greatfull for something you did to make your life easier. Sorry if this sounds negative but people have to get away from this lording over attitude.

I really do applaud your efforts for your family but the way your post comes over is they owe you something .

Edited July 1, 2017 by jeab1980

[perthperson]

I wonder how many of those complaining here also complain about foreigners and illegals 'stealing'  jobs in their home countries ? 

[owl sees all]

13 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Sorry if this sounds negative but people have to get away from this lording over attitude.

I really do applaud your efforts for your family but the way your post comes over is they owe you something .

I really get on well with the villagers and most of the family. I built the road partly for myself it's true but also to open up other family's farms.

 

What I've done is small beer to what other ex-pats have.

 

I love Thailand and look after many children. I don't want anything other than a fair shout (which I do get), I am sharing what I have with those around me.

 

I've read some strange and petty things on TvisaF. Getting nicked for carrying spuds to pulling down shutters.

 

The OP was asking for other TvisaF member inputs because of the Thai authorities well broadcast clamp down on work infringements.

 

[Falcon]

7 hours ago, Sexbomb said:

Does renting out property that you own, such as one/several condos, constitute as work if I am living in Thailand?

 

Is there are a difference between having a legit broker renting them out for you or you rent them out yourself by putting them on AirBnB or other rental websites?

 

I know, rentals less than 30 days requires a hotel license but if that law is also followed.

As you are making money on the rentals of the properties, you are, in effect working as you are getting an unearned income in through this. Not just the unearned income matter but if the authorities wanted to Persue it, they could also file for unpaid taxes due to the unearned income. This isn't just in thailand but is the law in almost every other country too.

 

as far as the original question of 'should foreigners be worried', my answer in this would be NO, we shouldn't be worried about it at all as, again, just the same as every other country and foreigners with the country, if we are doing work of some kind and getting paid for it, we should then be doing it the legal way. We all break certain rules no matter what country we are living in, regardless of how 'honest and trustworthy' we say we are, and if we are caught doing something then we need to face the consequences.

[YetAnother]

8 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

Worried! Concerned! NOT in the slightist i do all those things the OP mentioned. Will carry on doing said things with no concerns whatsoever.

guess we will have one less

[Dumbastheycome]

18 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I am on a marriage visa and I do not do any paid work as such. I teach the local children maths (arithmetic) at my home occasionally but that puts me out of pocket (willingly); drinks and crisps etc.

 

I reckon over the years I've paid Thai workers well over 2 Million Baht to do work for me on and around the farm. Sometimes I've worked with them to make sure things are done my way. I, like many others, have invested time, money, effort and good will into developing a farm, and farm house, that I'm proud of. I've also built a road of 320 metres which has opened up other areas.

 

My first reaction - if I was ever challenged - would be to argue the toss. Not wise I know and that would quickly end. I would just feel so demoralised after doing what I have for the village, as a whole, to be challenged and stopped for such pettiness.

 

/

I can sympathize with  all  you say. It would  seem a natural  situation where an individual demonstrates  community  advantage by way  of  employment  or  mutual physical  input  that there  would be  no issue in general. Which  to date  is/has probably  been the case at  local  community  level. 

However as has been  mentioned  many times  about the fact  that it  only takes  one  vindictive  individual  who  presumes   some  cause  to  complain to  rock the  boat.  

That the  "work" issue  has been highlighted could possibly  mean that the risk has been increased at  least in the  short term. It  cannot  be assumed  that  everybody( Thai)  is  unaware  of  the  regulations  or  the  new emphasis  on  it.

Interpretation and discretion is  very  likely to become  a  valuable  asset  to  the  bureaucrats  who are  empowered  to   apply the policy from outside the locality  a person resides  and is  "active" in.

 Non  discretionary policy can be  negative  in  effect.

There  are  activities  I undertake which  often  requires  employment. Those  activities  also  involve  expenditure for   materials.

If there   was  to be   such  strict  application of   work policy I would  simply  be forced  to do  nothing at all in most  situations.

That would  result  in  no expenditure  at all to the satisfaction  of  the  policy but  not  the local/generaleconomy.

Or  even  voluntary activities . Many times  I  have  had  requests   from  all levels  to agree  to  providing  English  lessons. When I  have  declined on the  basis  of  Thai  regulations which I have  actually presented to the people  making  the  request  it has  been met  with  confusion but  not  debate. Only small attempt at  persuasion . lol

I  can understand  that any  country needs  to  protect  itself   against  individuals  who work unregistered  in  professional  occupations  without  proof  of  qualification  or   many  other  scenarios  involving  risk of  fraud or deception but  some  reasonable  level  of  discretion in terms  of  domestic  activity  needs to be  defined.

As it stands  the  regulations  are  so  non discretionary I and  all other   need  to employ a  nose  wiper.

 

 

[Dumbastheycome]

59 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Which proves what ive just said. You did it beacuse you wanted to develope a farm for you and your family. But you would feel "demoralised after doing what i have done for the village "  So building a road for you which just happened to be helpful to villagers. you mean of course what you have done for yourself and family first and foremost and for that i applaud you. The by product may be helping other villagers with 320 meters of road but why should they feel greatfull for something you did to make your life easier. Sorry if this sounds negative but people have to get away from this lording over attitude.

I really do applaud your efforts for your family but the way your post comes over is they owe you something .

I think  the  post  is  valid. Yes...the  building  of a  road  was  primarily  for  personal  advantage....but... was  also an asset  to  others. No  doubt  few  were outwardly  "greatfull"  but  surely  took advantage  of  at  no  cost. It  is  not a  lording  attitude. It  is  highlighting the  fact  that   the  provision  of   infrastructure in enhancement  of  production  via  "illegitimate" input   has done the opposite  of  harm.

The way  it  is  a  complaint  could  be  made  about a  expat doing  work  instead  of  employing  Thai  to do what they  would probably  never  have the  collective initiative to do but  take  advantage  of.

This  highlights  the  contradiction  of  purpose  in the   policy in  my  view

[madusa]

On 7/1/2017 at 5:21 PM, Sexbomb said:

What does me having to provide documents to immigration when I rent a property have to do anything with tax?

 

You mix and blend things from here and there that you dont seem to have a clue about.

No, Mr sexbomb, what he meant was if you rent out your property not you rent a property from someone else. What he wrote was not clear so it is easily misunderstood like I did when I read it the first time.

Usually that happens with bad English, you need to read it again to figure out what it is all about.

Say you bought a shop house, you live upstairs and you are renting out the shop downstair- you need to provide documents to immigration and pay tax on the income you receive from renting out the shop downstairs- this what he meant I think. I may be wrong but unlikely.

"If what you said is not what it meant then what should be done remains undone"-  from a chinese saying.

[madusa]

On 7/1/2017 at 8:33 PM, paul18620 said:

Okay I will try and explain a bit better 

The local Thai person only needs to report you to the head man in the village or his family member that is in the police  and I am sure he would know how to get the official report done if you had upset this local.

Some provinces the local office isn't as far as 200 km.

mine is only 10 km away and if you had pissed them off so much I am sure the 200 km journey would be worth it for them as you would have to pass the brown envelope to them and I am sure it would cover the fuel cost and some more 

Yes, I believe what you wrote is the scenario if you offend someone knowingly or unkowningly. Thais like to take revenge- don't forget that if you are living among them. This is not Thai bashing. I just say what's on my mind (as allowed in democratic country).

I lived in Japan for years and studied there, speak their language fluently. Well, the Japanese would even come up to you and ask you if you know what you are doing is against the immigration rules and you could be in trouble. Very seldom would they report you behind your back unless you really piss them off, just about anyone will report on you behind your back if you piss them off not only Japanese. Otherwise they would talk to you first. Japanese are among the well informed people regarding laws in their own country. The British too.

It's kind of troublesome to live in a country where the people don't want to come up to you face to face to let you know they were offended by you so problem could be settle there and then. Often you heard or known cases where people were offended and took revenge ending in bloodshed. So this got to do with their culture, education and upbringing.

Feeling offended whether real or imagine should be dealt with openly rather than taking revenge (one revenge is to report on you behind your back).

I speak from experience because some thais took revenge on me and I had to pay 2,000 baht for some minor immigration problem.

[Sexbomb]

1 hour ago, madusa said:

No, Mr sexbomb, what he meant was if you rent out your property not you rent a property from someone else. What he wrote was not clear so it is easily misunderstood like I did when I read it the first time.

Usually that happens with bad English, you need to read it again to figure out what it is all about.

Say you bought a shop house, you live upstairs and you are renting out the shop downstair- you need to provide documents to immigration and pay tax on the income you receive from renting out the shop downstairs- this what he meant I think. I may be wrong but unlikely.

"If what you said is not what it meant then what should be done remains undone"-  from a chinese saying.

I almost got the feeling and understanding that he meant that immigration reports to the tax authorities but I know that is not the case since immigration themselves said so in some interview with some high-up.

 

But as you said, poor english I guess.

 

I havent re-read every post since my inbox was flooded with replies but I also think that the 20,000 THB threshold is for income generated from bonds, etc and not rental income but I might be wrong.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Closer to home, in the other main running thread on this topic, there was a post earlier today by a guy who says a friend of his got deported after he was caught working strictly online -- after he and his Thai wife had a falling out and she ended up reporting him to the authorities. Hell hath no fury like a woman [who feels] scorned. Say goodbye to Thailand.

 

 

[FrankyFreedom]

Jeez... This country called Thailand ("the land of smiles") surely is a pretty NASTY, dysfunctional place. The people are pretty LAME. There is not enough affordable drugs/alcohol to deal with their b.s , etc. Methinks I will exit this place, next week and move on to a plave where the people are a BIT less subconsciously dysfunctional.... Just sayin'...

[jasonsamui55]

8 hours ago, Techno Viking said:

About an hour ago I self pleasured to completion. Technically there are Thai's available to perform this task.

 

Should I be concerned ?

LOL. I was thinking the exact same thing. I think you're stealing plenty of jobs with that one!

Edited July 1, 2017 by jasonsamui55

[jasonsamui55]

Why do they let a foreigner open his own bank account? We all know he might conduct a transaction or two at some time. Isn't that "stealing" a job from a Thai accountant?

 

And why do they let a foreigner get a car/motorbike drivers license? Isn't he "stealing" a job from a Thai driver?

 

Its all borderline ridiculous, so much so that you can get dinged for feeding yourself or wiping your own a$$, but when they have such ridiculous rules they can selectively apply them against whoever they want to throw the book at. There's a book I've heard about that says the typical American commits 2 felonies per day without even knowing it. It's likely worse in Thailand. It's all just about making people constantly question "am I allowed to do this?" or "am I allowed to do that?" rather than just be free to live your own life.

 

Is this the route governments the world over will soon be taking? God forbid anyone ever piss off the powers that be in their respective countries, or they might throw the book at you and lock you up for an eternity.

 

Luckily for most in Thailand seems there is a huge difference between rules on the book and actual enforcement of just about anything.

[Odin Norway]

16 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Closer to home, in the other main running thread on this topic, there was a post earlier today by a guy who says a friend of his got deported after he was caught working strictly online -- after he and his Thai wife had a falling out and she ended up reporting him to the authorities. Hell hath no fury like a woman [who feels] scorned. Say goodbye to Thailand.

 

 

This is a realy good point.You live with them for a long time,and try to teach them all you know.Then comes payback.

 

[bandito]

16 hours ago, robblok said:

Depends, they say that working on your own house (not farm work) but painting it and so on is ok. This might be considered the same.. or they see it as farm work. Where do you stand.. that depends on the power of the one that want you nicked.  Police in general are not going after work permits.. that would be the labor department. However if you have a police officer that is smart and out to make a few bucks you could be in trouble. 

 

 

A few years back I got stopped by a police officer on the expressway tollbooth to Rangsit who wanted to see my workpermit as I was moving household items in my car (mattresses and things like that).

He wanted Baht 500- to forget it and I told him to take a hike or arrest me, gave me a handshake and wished me well.

Moving house and transporting items by yourself is work.

 Painting your house is work.

Repairing your car DIY is work.

 

 

[owl sees all]

2 hours ago, bandito said:

A few years back I got stopped by a police officer on the expressway tollbooth to Rangsit who wanted to see my workpermit as I was moving household items in my car (mattresses and things like that).

I put this one up with getting nicked for carrying spuds and opening a shutter to a shop for ridiculousness.

 

We are not talking work permits here but rather day to day work on the farm and around the house. The whole thing about working in Thailand seems to boil down to this; are you doing a Thai out of a job?

 

In many cases the ex-pat has created the work for Thais by the injection of money, effort and vision. If then. for instance, he goes to the building suppliers to buy some pipes for his project, this surely cannot be deemed work. Or; If, as is very unlikely, the farang does a day's work for a farmer cutting down (say) eucalyptus trees then he is taking a day's work from a Thai. The two are very different in my view.

 

Virtually everything we do is work in the purest sense but should what we do, sometimes in all innocence, be deemed illegal?

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by owl sees all

[LannaGuy]

They are offering Thais a 25% 'Bounty' to report illegal working. Just had 3 staff (Burmese) visited by Police and had to pay a 'fine' as a local Thai reported them and collect their 25% of the said 10,000 fine.

[1SteveC]

19 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

Basically you cannot do ANYTHING that is deemed potentially taking work away from a Thai. It only takes one vindictive Thai to report you and you're toast - just don't do it.

 

Why does this myth keep getting perpetuated ?

 

The definition of work in the law mentions nothing about "taking work away from a Thai".

 

Yes, there is a list of prohibited professions, but it is not an infinite list and there are foreigners doing work that Thais could do, and doing it legally.

[davidst01]

I think they are mainly after teachers working without a permit. 

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, 1SteveC said:

Yes, there is a list of prohibited professions, but it is not an infinite list and there are foreigners doing work that Thais could do, and doing it legally.

 

What 'work' can a farang do legally without a work permit?

 

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

I put this one up with getting nicked for carrying spuds and opening a shutter to a shop for ridiculousness.

Going on the posts throughout TvisaF there seems to be precious little!

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by owl sees all