What is considered work?

[GreasyFingers]

15 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

I live 'bout 80 klicks from UT city and 80 klicks from NK city. House and farm together, no neighbors. Have a good Felang friend who is cosy with NK immigration, lives in NK. He reckons he's been shown photos of me driving my tractor on my land by said officials who all think it is hilarious...

Yes, all of the local Thai think I am crazy for doing manual work on the gf's small farm. They also think the gf is just as crazy working the farm when she has a farang to support her.

[owl sees all]

1 minute ago, GreasyFingers said:

Yes, all of the local Thai think I am crazy for doing manual work on the gf's small farm. They also think the gf is just as crazy working the farm when she has a farang to support her.

Before I married, the wife was forever telling me what a good farm worker she was. Now I can't get her enthusiastic about working on the farm at all. Everywhere Thais are doing rice while the misses watches TV on her own. My wife has lost all interest in farm work.

 

Many ladies change their view on work as soon as they hitch a farang. You are fortunate to have a working gf.

[jeab1980]

9 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Before I married, the wife was forever telling me what a good farm worker she was. Now I can't get her enthusiastic about working on the farm at all. Everywhere Thais are doing rice while the misses watches TV on her own. My wife has lost all interest in farm work.

 

Many ladies change their view on work as soon as they hitch a farang. You are fortunate to have a working gf.

Lol stop the money flow till she gets of her arse and does something.

After a little set up money given by me to my Mrs she now has a thriving village buisness and still goes to farm with me for rice planting/harvesting/sugar field upkeep.

Employs a lady part time to run shop and things whilst we are on farm. 

Now having said i go to farm for planting/harvesting i do not plant or cut my back would not take that at all so i do other things were very little bending is required.

Edited July 2, 2017 by jeab1980

[owl sees all]

17 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Now having said i go to farm for planting/harvesting i do not plant or cut my back would not take that at all so i do other things were very little bending is required.

We don't have rice but we have other stuff. And the one constant is grass and weeds. Virtually every day i'm controlling the grass somewhere. I enjoy the physicality of it. The wife appears not to.

 

Returning to our earlier, lively debate; I do not fear being shopped by a local, but rather a more government led clampdown directed at us.

 

Just a digress. The lady opposite got her pick-up stuck in the mud this morning. She came to me to get it out for her. Fortunately all was OK but could even something as simple as this be deemed work?

Edited July 2, 2017 by owl sees all

[jeab1980]

2 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

We don't have rice but we have other stuff. And the one constant is grass and weeds. Virtually every day i'm controlling the grass somewhere. I enjoy the physicality of it. The wife appears not to.

 

Returning to our earlier, lively debate; I do not fear being shopped by a local, but rather a more government led clampdown directed at us.

 

Just a digress. The lady opposite got her pick-up stuck in the mud this morning. She came to me to get it out for her. Fortunately all was OK but could even something as simple as this be deemed work.

I have seen no government type clamp downs or heard of any (apart from on here) in my neck of the woods. I farm alongside certain families that are very well conected within the village system. The head mans farm neighbours ours. 

Paranoia by a few causes a chain reaction this can be see on a thread re having to show money in Savannakhet for non o based on marriage.

[jeab1980]

18 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

The obvious one which many of us have made it's ILLEGAL to do any of these things. Get it now?

Its illegal to smoke in petrol stations  its still done by many with no penalties. Its illegal to drink and drive but done by many with no penalties. Whats concidered illegal in thailand is often given only lip service. Got it now

[1SteveC]

2 hours ago, owl sees all said:

 

What 'work' can a farang do legally without a work permit?

 

Going on the posts throughout TvisaF there seems to be precious little!

 

 

When you use the word "farang" do you mean foreigner ? Or were you just asking about western caucasions ?

 

Who mentioned no work permit, I specifically used the word "legally".

Edited July 2, 2017 by 1SteveC

[owl sees all]

4 minutes ago, 1SteveC said:

When you use the word "farang" do you mean foreigner ? Or were you just asking about western caucasions ?

 

Who mentioned no work permit, I specifically used the word "legally".

'Westerners' not south east Asians.

 

Going by the posts there is little that westerners can do and not be regarded as work. And there is virtually no work that 'westerners' can do without a work permit.

 

 

[tonboy]

1 hour ago, jeab1980 said:

Its illegal to smoke in petrol stations  its still done by many with no penalties. Its illegal to drink and drive but done by many with no penalties. Whats concidered illegal in thailand is often given only lip service. Got it now

the problem is that for those kind of illegal activities you get a fine, if you get cought when you are employed without a working permit, you loose your visa as well as you are banned for a lot of years.

 

[tonboy]

17 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

' And there is virtually no work that 'westerners' can do without a work permit.

In these posting you are talking always about work (in Thailand). But in fact the Thai law states "Employment (prohibited)".
To me there is a big difference. Employment is if you have an agreement or contract with a company or other person (in Thailand) to work for him. Clearly stated in the law that this is prohibited. But if you work on your own house, or for a company outside Thailand, does this also fit the definition of Employment in Thailand ?

[owl sees all]

To quote the OP;

 

Personally what I'm concerned about - as must be thousands of other expats - what constitutes work?

 

Driving a tractor or Kabota on the farm! Work?

My friend's Thai wife has a business selling fish around the villages. He does the driving! Work?

Collecting rubbish and burning it on the farm! Work?

Helping at a temple! Work?

10 minutes ago, tonboy said:

In these posting you are talking always about work (in Thailand). But in fact the Thai law states "Employment (prohibited)".
To me there is a big difference. Employment is if you have an agreement or contract with a company or other person (in Thailand) to work for him. Clearly stated in the law that this is prohibited. But if you work on your own house, or for a company outside Thailand, does this also fit the definition of Employment in Thailand ?

 

According to quite a few posts on TvisaF all of the above is work and could, and probably is considered illegal?

 

What is your take on this Tonboy?

[YetAnother]

23 hours ago, BritTim said:

The answer is that "work" is anything an official says is "work". There is a consensus by the powers that be that certain groups should be left alone (e.g. digital nomads). That aside, mostly, common sense is applied (yes, really) on whether to go after someone for what could be defined as "work". In rural Thailand, if you are on good terms with everyone, and have no enemies, you can get away with almost anything. Avoid being in competition with someone in a way that they could perceive as hurting their business. That is what generally leads to trouble.

Quite well said I would add the general umbrella of racism and there are thais that actually hate us, baselessly

[AGareth2]

20 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

At 4PM ??

 

 

he is an early riser

[tonboy]

49 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

According to quite a few posts on TvisaF all of the above is work and could, and probably is considered illegal?

 

What is your take on this Tonboy?

Again, and I will specify, nowhere in the new laws is talked about work but rather employment:

 

Draconic penalties on unlawful foreigner work in Thailand
On 22 of June 2017, an Emergency Decree had been issued. Main topics are as follows:
If an employer employs a foreigner to work at a foreigner forbidden position, such employer is fined with 400,000-800,000 Baht per employed foreigner.
If an employer allows a foreigner to work in excess of the work stipulated into the work permit he is fined with not more than 400,000 Baht per 1 employed foreigner.
If a foreigner works without having a work permit or work at a foreigner forbidden position, he/she is imprisoned not more than 5 years, fined with 2,000-100,000 Baht or both.
If a foreigner works on an urgent and essential nature work without acknowledgment of the officer (form WP-10), he is fined with not more than 100,000 Baht.
If a foreigner works in excess of the work as described in the work permit, he/she is imprisoned not more than 6 months, fined with not more than 100,000 Baht or both.
If a person deceives that he/she can bring a foreigner to work with a domestic employer without a work permit, he/she is imprisoned 3-10 years, fined 600,000-1,000,000 Baht, or both.
Any person operating as a foreigner job agency without a license, he/she is imprisoned for 1-3 years, fined 200,000-600,000 Baht, or both.

[owl sees all]

7 minutes ago, tonboy said:

If a foreigner works without having a work permit or work at a foreigner forbidden position, he/she is imprisoned not more than 5 years, fined with 2,000-100,000 Baht or both.

I think this is the one that we are referring to.

 

This is the crux of the thread.  What is considered work?

 

Good to get the list.

[the guest]

Alien (or foreigner): a natural person who is not of Thai nationality.
Work: engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

[Techno Viking]

19 minutes ago, the guest said:

Alien (or foreigner): a natural person who is not of Thai nationality.
Work: engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

I just mopped the floor, does that put me in breach of the working thing ?

[LannaGuy]

5 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

Its illegal to smoke in petrol stations  its still done by many with no penalties. Its illegal to drink and drive but done by many with no penalties. Whats concidered illegal in thailand is often given only lip service. Got it now

Glad you agree with me.. that's it's illegal but you may well get away with it. I had 2 Burmese workers stopped by police last week and had to undertake some sort of document/fine for 10,000 25% of which went to the Thai "snitch" as a 'bounty' and this is a new process, my Thai constructor tells me, very recently brought in. 

 

[LannaGuy]

1 minute ago, Techno Viking said:

I just mopped the floor, does that put me in breach of the working thing ?

Try go mopping the local restaurant floor as we have agreed it's about risk evaluation and inside your home is very unlikely you will get reported but much more likely in a public place.

[Techno Viking]

5 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Try go mopping the local restaurant floor as we have agreed it's about risk evaluation and inside your home is very unlikely you will get reported but much more likely in a public place.

I hate mopping my own floor so not a chance I'll mop someone else's.

 

 

[ELVIS123456]

On 7/1/2017 at 3:54 PM, ezzra said:

Ridiculous right? living in a country where one has to be on a look out like

a criminal if he's doing something against the law like tending to his

place of living home and farm,

the best way to sums it all up is you can do almost anything around your

home, until someone who doesn't like you drop the dime on you that is and

call the immigration on you and this is when the fun begins...

You try to build a road, or repair a road, that other people have access to use in my home country, and you can be be charged.You do certain things inside your own home like plumbing or electrical work, without approved licence, and you can be charged.  Stop being so negative - the rules are the rules - and there are rules in every country about 'work' citizens can do and non-citizens can do.

 

However, what doesn't exist in every country (many but not all) is the ability for a local policeman or Govt person, to decide a non-citizen is doing work without a permit, following a complaint from a Thai friend or relative, and take draconian action against them.

 

So just be careful, stay on side with the locals, especially Police and Govt Officials, and dont do any 'work' in a public place - period - that is how it is here. Complaining about it aint gonna change a thing. I know that wont stop some, but for those seeking advice, I reckon the first responses by robblock and many others says it all - relax and take it easy, but be careful/mindful.

 

 

 

[louse1953]

On 2017-7-1 at 1:12 PM, owl sees all said:

Well I too have done all the things in the OP but this move on (illegal) workers by the Thai authorities has got me concerned. Is there a big picture emerging here? Or as your post says "Worried! Concerned! NOT in the slightest" to be taken sincerely. I hope you are right on this.

 

I don't fancy 5 years in the cage for trying to help Thais and build Thailand.

And cutting a Thai out of work.

[louse1953]

19 hours ago, owl sees all said:

I really get on well with the villagers and most of the family. I built the road partly for myself it's true but also to open up other family's farms.

 

What I've done is small beer to what other ex-pats have.

 

I love Thailand and look after many children. I don't want anything other than a fair shout (which I do get), I am sharing what I have with those around me.

 

I've read some strange and petty things on TvisaF. Getting nicked for carrying spuds to pulling down shutters.

 

The OP was asking for other TvisaF member inputs because of the Thai authorities well broadcast clamp down on work infringements.

 

If it sounds like bs,it is.Don't believe ever thing you read.You need to put your bs meter up a few notches.

[clockwork]

I would say all of the examples original poster provided would definitely be considered work

[BritTim]

On 7/1/2017 at 1:38 PM, Sexbomb said:

Does renting out property that you own, such as one/several condos, constitute as work if I am living in Thailand?

Probably, yes, if an official decides to go after you.

 

On 7/1/2017 at 1:38 PM, Sexbomb said:

Is there are a difference between having a legit broker renting them out for you or you rent them out yourself by putting them on AirBnB or other rental websites?

If using an agent to rent out the properties on your behalf, you would b safe unless you upset someone who is very influential.

 

On 7/1/2017 at 1:38 PM, Sexbomb said:

I know, rentals less than 30 days requires a hotel license but if that law is also followed.

It might be.

[jeab1980]

6 hours ago, tonboy said:

the problem is that for those kind of illegal activities you get a fine, if you get cought when you are employed without a working permit, you loose your visa as well as you are banned for a lot of years.

 

As stated earlier paranoia spreads quickly.  Must be a figures guru out there who can quote just how many farang and i restate farang who have been deported for working without a visa.  In the last year.

[jeab1980]

3 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

Glad you agree with me.. that's it's illegal but you may well get away with it. I had 2 Burmese workers stopped by police last week and had to undertake some sort of document/fine for 10,000 25% of which went to the Thai "snitch" as a 'bounty' and this is a new process, my Thai constructor tells me, very recently brought in. 

 

Well why was your employing burmese workers illegally then is the question you need to ask yourself surley

[YetAnother]

the fact we are having this conversation indicates the remarkable insecuty of the drafters of the 1979 act

[bandito]

21 hours ago, owl sees all said:

I put this one up with getting nicked for carrying spuds and opening a shutter to a shop for ridiculousness.

 

We are not talking work permits here but rather day to day work on the farm and around the house. The whole thing about working in Thailand seems to boil down to this; are you doing a Thai out of a job?

 

In many cases the ex-pat has created the work for Thais by the injection of money, effort and vision. If then. for instance, he goes to the building suppliers to buy some pipes for his project, this surely cannot be deemed work. Or; If, as is very unlikely, the farang does a day's work for a farmer cutting down (say) eucalyptus trees then he is taking a day's work from a Thai. The two are very different in my view.

 

Virtually everything we do is work in the purest sense but should what we do, sometimes in all innocence, be deemed illegal?

 

 

 

There are barowners deported for helping out in there own bar, ( in wifes name) like putting a bottle of Heinz on the table for a customer, filling a cup of coffee or getting behind the bar.

All of this is considered work.

Even for painting your own house you have to (officially) appliy for a temporary permit.

You can find it ridiculous (which it is) as much as you want but it is the law of the land.

Moving house and transporting items DIY, in your own car and driving, is considered work if you like it or not.

You are living in Thailand and thinking rational will not help you.

Sometimes I get the impression that thinking is considered work also.

[LannaGuy]

11 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

Well why was your employing burmese workers illegally then is the question you need to ask yourself surley

90% of the construction industry is built on these migrant workers and this will be devastating to the industry if followed through as thais don't want to do the work and are lazy compared. Anyway let's see but it's been here for centuries.