U.S. prepared to use force on North Korea 'if we must' - U.N. envoy

[baboon]

5 minutes ago, Grubster said:

And I commented on your claim that because NK has caught up to 70 and 50 year old technology that they are now a big player in high tech. Bla-bla-bla.

Why cannot this be the case? How much would it cost them to buy (under sanctions too) a fleet of spiffy new fighter jets and how much would it cost them to train a few computer whizzes? 

[Grubster]

9 minutes ago, khunken said:

To add to Naam's answer (above) just Google N Korea cyber hacking. Numerous western intelligence agencies (OK not always truthfully) attribute the Wannacry virus to N Korea so basically they could very likely fry your car radio.

Always dangerous for anyone to underestimate their enemy. BTW no army, no matter how powerful, can withstand bombs & missiles for very long. Oh & I wasn't one of the royal 'we' you mention.

Yes I am very sure they could jam my radio, but I am more sure they could not jam our latest communications technologies, homing devices etc.

[khunken]

Just now, Grubster said:

Yes I am very sure they could jam my radio, but I am more sure they could not jam our latest communications technologies, homing devices etc.

Stop digging when you're in a hole. Just minutes ago you said they couldn't jam your radio, now you're sure they could. Basically you have no idea what they can or can't jam. 'Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise'  proverb.

[Grubster]

17 minutes ago, baboon said:

Why cannot this be the case? How much would it cost them to buy (under sanctions too) a fleet of spiffy new fighter jets and how much would it cost them to train a few computer whizzes? 

You mean like the junk that Iraq was sold? A much, much richer country than NK. Do you really think that the US and Russia would sell their latest and best military weapons on the world market?

[iReason]

On July 6, 2017 at 8:46 PM, UncleFester said:

Not only will a good war with North Korea #MAGA make America great again, but it will pump those favorable numbers in the polls to overwhelmingly go for President Trump.  All this other #FakeNews stuff will go away as soon as the first ICBM hits the target.

"All this other #FakeNews stuff will go away as soon as the first ICBM hits the target."

 

Nope.

The wheels of justice will continue to turn.

As we speak.

 

The slimy rocks being overturned are just beginning to expose the collusion, fraud, racketeering and money laundering by the motley crew occupying the White House.

 

Count on it. 

 

And no Trumped up "war" will change that.

 

And rational people are already aware of the dangerous, inept man-child occupying the White House: 

 

Republican-led committee approves bill restricting Donald Trump's ability to wage war

The amendment would revoke the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (sub-title)

 

"A House committee has earned a rare bipartisan round of applause for beginning to roll back,

the US president's ability to wage war."

 

"The House Appropriations Committee recently approved an amendment to revoke the Authorization for Use of Military Force, which allows the president to undertake war against al-Qaeda and its affiliates without Congressional approval."

 

“This issue is more urgent given the erratic behaviour and inexperience of our current Commander-in-Chief”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-war-authority-bill-law-restrict-limit-committee-republican-vote-a7815656.html

 

"Not only will a good war with North Korea #MAGA make America great again,

but it will pump those favorable numbers in the polls to overwhelmingly go for President Trump"

 

That is sick wish.

A "good" war.

Really disgusting.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by iReason

[Grubster]

7 minutes ago, khunken said:

Stop digging when you're in a hole. Just minutes ago you said they couldn't jam your radio, now you're sure they could. Basically you have no idea what they can or can't jam. 'Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise'  proverb.

Wow, you really thought I was serious about the car radio? Not a wise man at all are you?

[Grubster]

29 minutes ago, mrboatbkk said:

Who is actually the threat NK or US?

Sent from my VIE-L29 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I guess it depends on where you are.

[Grubster]

Just now, khunken said:

If you think you can weasel out of your infantile posts, think again. Ignorance I can excuse but not dishonesty so that's enough for me. Carry on trolling.

Wow he did, he did,  Can I put it this way for you wise one. NK intelligence , technology, and arms cannot hold a candle to the US.  Go ahead ask me why they would want to hold a candle.  DUH

[baboon]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

You mean like the junk that Iraq was sold? A much, much richer country than NK. Do you really think that the US and Russia would sell their latest and best military weapons on the world market?

I mean it would be much cheaper for the DPRK government to train some IT specialists than to buy a spiffy new fleet of fighter jets, just as my post said.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been removed.   One member has been given a suspension and others are likely to follow unless the nonsensical bickering stops.  

[Thechook]

7 hours ago, Grubster said:

Oh, you mean the things that we did 70 and 45 years ago? I'm sorry but in this context that is light years. Do you really think you know anything of the military technology we have now, I don't think I do but I can rest assured it will very easily take this po dunk country down while showing no more than 50% of any new toys.

You take north korea lightly, they gave the U.S a right touch up last time they met and I don't think they are to concerned this time either.  It might just be the other way around where they do the kicking.  Stupid to take your enemy lightly no matter how great a country thinks itself to be.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Thechook

[Morch]

13 hours ago, Grubster said:

Yes I am very sure they could jam my radio, but I am more sure they could not jam our latest communications technologies, homing devices etc.

 

If they couldn't, or if their electronic warfare prowess weren't formidable enough, the US would have far better intelligence with regard to their nuclear program and a better take of leadership's higher echelons. As NK managed to provide "surprises" on both these fronts over the years, guess things aren't as straightforward as you attempt to paint them.

[Grubster]

26 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

If they couldn't, or if their electronic warfare prowess weren't formidable enough, the US would have far better intelligence with regard to their nuclear program and a better take of leadership's higher echelons. As NK managed to provide "surprises" on both these fronts over the years, guess things aren't as straightforward as you attempt to paint them.

North Korea has never surprised the US intelligence with anything, Nor has Iraq, Iran, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, even 911 is a little iffy as to who new what.  All that said the US war machine will again succeed in blindsiding its people with propaganda making North Korea a near Super Power. Put down your books, pick up a gun, were gonna have a whole lot of fun.

 

   The US and Russia will never show their latest military hardware or software against a weak country. 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Grubster said:

North Korea has never surprised the US intelligence with anything, Nor has Iraq, Iran, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, even 911 is a little iffy as to who new what.  All that said the US war machine will again succeed in blindsiding its people with propaganda making North Korea a near Super Power. Put down your books, pick up a gun, were gonna have a whole lot of fun.

 

   The US and Russia will never show their latest military hardware or software against a weak country. 

 

The above assertions are divorced from reality. US intelligence agencies and decision makers were surprised numerous times over the years. On pretty much all "examples" cited, even. That you claim otherwise is bizarre, to say the least. 

 

This has nothing to do with "showing the latest military hardware". The point made was with regard to intelligence. US intelligence relies heavily on SIGINT and OPTINT, both further relying on technological advantage. If these were omnipotent, there wouldn't be any gaps in information.

[simple1]

12 minutes ago, Grubster said:

North Korea has never surprised the US intelligence with anything, Nor has Iraq, Iran, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, even 911 is a little iffy as to who new what.  All that said the US war machine will again succeed in blindsiding its people with propaganda making North Korea a near Super Power. Put down your books, pick up a gun, were gonna have a whole lot of fun.

 

   The US and Russia will never show their latest military hardware or software against a weak country. 

'Morch' is not an Oracle, nor claims to be, but you're underestimating his knowledge of warfare / intelligence matters. However, you're making statements of which it is evident you have factual knowledge.

Edited July 9, 2017 by simple1

[Grubster]

7 hours ago, Thechook said:

You take north korea lightly, they gave the U.S a right touch up last time they met and I don't think they are to concerned this time either.  It might just be the other way around where they do the kicking.  Stupid to take your enemy lightly no matter how great a country thinks itself to be.

I said the same thing about Iraq when I'm sure you were beating the war drum and listening to all the lies coming out of Washington and other western nations about how really really strong their military was, and how they were an imminent threat to the west.

       Since the last I checked I won't be making any decisions about these matters, it is not stupid for me to take these enemies lightly, I cannot say the same for those who always seem to follow the lead to war, without asking questions about the validity of the claims made by the war machine.  Ask the families of the dead troops and dead civilians in Iraq if they would have preferred we had not believed the lies leading up to that war.

[Grubster]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The above assertions are divorced from reality. US intelligence agencies and decision makers were surprised numerous times over the years. On pretty much all "examples" cited, even. That you claim otherwise is bizarre, to say the least. 

 

This has nothing to do with "showing the latest military hardware". The point made was with regard to intelligence. US intelligence relies heavily on SIGINT and OPTINT, both further relying on technological advantage. If these were omnipotent, there wouldn't be any gaps in information.

Please give one example of NK surprising the US intelligence. We have been monitoring their tediously slow advance in nuclear technology for many years. They have sent a few missiles up and you and I do not know if any of those could hit a target, but our intelligence probably know the likelihood of it. 

 

     This has everything to do with how advanced our Military hardware, software etc. are.  Their missiles have no chance, their planes have no chance, their tanks have no chance and their troops have no chance.

 

  Please don't forget the examples of how NK brilliance surprised US intelligence.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Please give one example of NK surprising the US intelligence. We have been monitoring their tediously slow advance in nuclear technology for many years. They have sent a few missiles up and you and I do not know if any of those could hit a target, but our intelligence probably know the likelihood of it. 

 

     This has everything to do with how advanced our Military hardware, software etc. are.  Their missiles have no chance, their planes have no chance, their tanks have no chance and their troops have no chance.

 

  Please don't forget the examples of how NK brilliance surprised US intelligence.

 

I'd say that their latest missile test qualifies, other instances in the past. The full scale of the NK nuclear program was not correctly assessed before it became trouble.

 

With regard to specific capabilities - saying that it is unknown if NK missiles can hit targets is incorrect. The may not be top notch on accuracy, but that's not to mean missing a country, or a city. As far as it relates to hitting the US itself, more a matter of range than of accuracy.

 

That you claim NK missiles "have no chance" what does that even mean? That they do not have the range? That's been partially answered by facts. That they aren't accurate enough? That's both debatable and not necessarily very relevant. With regard to their air force - no claims were made. When it comes to ground forces - you're way off mark. These aren't threatening the US, but SK. Seoul is about 35 miles from the NK border.

[Kiwiken]

15 hours ago, Grubster said:

Oh, you mean the things that we did 70 and 45 years ago? I'm sorry but in this context that is light years. Do you really think you know anything of the military technology we have now, I don't think I do but I can rest assured it will very easily take this po dunk country down while showing no more than 50% of any new toys.

Assuming you could take this "Dunk" Country of 25 million people down. Do you think they cannot hit back. South Korea would be ravaged, Japan would suffer heavy casualties.

They would most likely use NBC warfare on American soil. Yes NK would be neutralised but the death toll for the World would be millions in the Koreas, Japan, China and other Asian Nations. i would think millions in the USA too. Do not think Nukes just need an icbm. And NK also has a biological warfare system too. I pray cooler heads prevail than you gung ho's

[Grubster]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I'd say that their latest missile test qualifies, other instances in the past. The full scale of the NK nuclear program was not correctly assessed before it became trouble.

 

With regard to specific capabilities - saying that it is unknown if NK missiles can hit targets is incorrect. The may not be top notch on accuracy, but that's not to mean missing a country, or a city. As far as it relates to hitting the US itself, more a matter of range than of accuracy.

 

That you claim NK missiles "have no chance" what does that even mean? That they do not have the range? That's been partially answered by facts. That they aren't accurate enough? That's both debatable and not necessarily very relevant. With regard to their air force - no claims were made. When it comes to ground forces - you're way off mark. These aren't threatening the US, but SK. Seoul is about 35 miles from the NK border.

You have no idea what our intelligence knows about Korean advancement in any of this and neither do I, but the fact that it took them seventy more years to even test one doesn't make things look to good for them. It is most definitely an unknown as to whether or not they can hit a target yet, also very doubtful. 

       We have many anti ballistic missiles and a missile fired at us will be knocked out of the air anyway, we are completing a short range missile defense system in SK right now that has been 100% effective in all tests. Thats what that means.

     I spent two years on the DMZ, its 60 miles from Seoul and is in range of their big guns, I never said they couldn't do a lot of damage, I said they don't have a chance in battle and they do not.  This is not an open prairie it is very mountainous and fortified, their army would be decimated in a couple weeks.

      We are the ones that are threatening to do whatever we think is necessary to stop them from fully developing a nuclear program, if we attack them as with Iraq, who will the world say caused the devastation in South Korea.

     My point in all this is why would we want war with this small country that is no immanent threat to us, I say leave them alone to collapse under their own system. The only other option seems to be war and that will kill more than any very unlikely attack they might do. Many countries have nukes and none have been used since WW2.

      I think the war mongers will prevail here as usual and a new can of worms will be opened in the east.

[Grubster]

4 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

Assuming you could take this "Dunk" Country of 25 million people down. Do you think they cannot hit back. South Korea would be ravaged, Japan would suffer heavy casualties.

They would most likely use NBC warfare on American soil. Yes NK would be neutralised but the death toll for the World would be millions in the Koreas, Japan, China and other Asian Nations. i would think millions in the USA too. Do not think Nukes just need an icbm. And NK also has a biological warfare system too. I pray cooler heads prevail than you gung ho's

I am not young or a gun ho, I am for leaving him alone, like we should have Sadaam,  what are you for?

 

You are claiming the same amount of damage that they said Iraq could/would inflict. You are giving this po dunk nation way to much credit.

[ilostmypassword]

13 hours ago, Thechook said:

You take north korea lightly, they gave the U.S a right touch up last time they met and I don't think they are to concerned this time either.  It might just be the other way around where they do the kicking.  Stupid to take your enemy lightly no matter how great a country thinks itself to be.

Actually, no, it was the Chinese who gave the US a "right touch up last time."

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

You have no idea what our intelligence knows about Korean advancement in any of this and neither do I, but the fact that it took them seventy more years to even test one doesn't make things look to good for them. It is most definitely an unknown as to whether or not they can hit a target yet, also very doubtful. 

       We have many anti ballistic missiles and a missile fired at us will be knocked out of the air anyway, we are completing a short range missile defense system in SK right now that has been 100% effective in all tests. Thats what that means.

     I spent two years on the DMZ, its 60 miles from Seoul and is in range of their big guns, I never said they couldn't do a lot of damage, I said they don't have a chance in battle and they do not.  This is not an open prairie it is very mountainous and fortified, their army would be decimated in a couple weeks.

      We are the ones that are threatening to do whatever we think is necessary to stop them from fully developing a nuclear program, if we attack them as with Iraq, who will the world say caused the devastation in South Korea.

     My point in all this is why would we want war with this small country that is no immanent threat to us, I say leave them alone to collapse under their own system. The only other option seems to be war and that will kill more than any very unlikely attack they might do. Many countries have nukes and none have been used since WW2.

      I think the war mongers will prevail here as usual and a new can of worms will be opened in the east.

 

I have enough insight into these issues to assert that even if your claim to US intelligence omniscience was currently close to reality, it was not always the case. I doubt there were fundamental changes on that score.

 

It didn't take NK 70 years to launch a missile. Their missile program isn't that old. Further, no one suggests that their achievements, military and technological, surpass those of the US. For all their talk, they will never be able to fully match the US might. Point is that they do not have to. 

 

With regard to NK missile accuracy, again - not that relevant. That they can hit Japan or SK isn't even a question. Whether or not their missiles can reach the US is. If the range issue is cleared, missing the US would be quite a feat. Hype aside, the US defenses against ICBM's are pathetic. Better than others perhaps, but still. Believe there was an article linked about it up the topic. THAAD (which was deployed in SK) was never battle tested, and might be sorely tried if faced with multiple projectiles (a very realistic scenario). And no, it wasn't 100% effective even under test conditions.

 

It is not claimed that the NK armed forces are a match for whatever the US/SK may put up against them. It is pointed out that the damage inflicted upon SK if such a confrontation erupted, would be severe. That even more destruction would be visited on NK is perhaps not a major consideration.

 

If it wasn't clear, I'm not among those advocating war. IMO, it would incur massive destruction and loss of life on both sides (and that's without including other countries getting involved). It may not even end with NK bizzare-hair-cut boy our of power, or with the dismantling of NK nuclear program. That said, things are unstable enough that it might come to this, regardless if wanted or not.

 

[Grubster]

23 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I have enough insight into these issues to assert that even if your claim to US intelligence omniscience was currently close to reality, it was not always the case. I doubt there were fundamental changes on that score.

 

It didn't take NK 70 years to launch a missile. Their missile program isn't that old. Further, no one suggests that their achievements, military and technological, surpass those of the US. For all their talk, they will never be able to fully match the US might. Point is that they do not have to. 

 

With regard to NK missile accuracy, again - not that relevant. That they can hit Japan or SK isn't even a question. Whether or not their missiles can reach the US is. If the range issue is cleared, missing the US would be quite a feat. Hype aside, the US defenses against ICBM's are pathetic. Better than others perhaps, but still. Believe there was an article linked about it up the topic. THAAD (which was deployed in SK) was never battle tested, and might be sorely tried if faced with multiple projectiles (a very realistic scenario). And no, it wasn't 100% effective even under test conditions.

 

It is not claimed that the NK armed forces are a match for whatever the US/SK may put up against them. It is pointed out that the damage inflicted upon SK if such a confrontation erupted, would be severe. That even more destruction would be visited on NK is perhaps not a major consideration.

 

If it wasn't clear, I'm not among those advocating war. IMO, it would incur massive destruction and loss of life on both sides (and that's without including other countries getting involved). It may not even end with NK bizzare-hair-cut boy our of power, or with the dismantling of NK nuclear program. That said, things are unstable enough that it might come to this, regardless if wanted or not.

 

US intelligence has been better or on par with the Russians for many years. US intelligence does not tell citizens like you or me what they know. The fact that the US has seemingly been caught off guard a couple times does not mean that they didn't know what was going to or could happen.  They also work for the war machine.

     So you don't think NK was interested in missiles and nukes immediately after WW2, and surely after the Korean war?

 

 You don't know how effective our antiballistic missiles are but you do know we have had them for forty years or more and I'm guessing we have them figured out better than anyone else, to stop the one or two missiles that NK might send we could have many missiles launched to intercept them.

 

 Their is only two ways that this disaster can happen one is they attack someone, two is someone attacks them. I am dead against the latter no matter how powerful and crazy you think this man is.  Also I do care about the lives of North Koreans, they have done nothing wrong but be born under a crazed family dictatorship.

[Dustdevil]

On 7/5/2017 at 8:27 PM, jerojero said:

Like they blasted Iraq? Think North Korea will not retaliate? Goodbye Seoul, as Trump activates nuclear weapons from 5000 miles away.

How many times do I have to inform people that some of the US nuclear arsenal is just offshore Korea. Ever heard of Trident subs? They can launch 192 nuclear warheads, the smallest of which is 100 kilotons, compared to the one at Hiroshima of 15 kilotons.

[baboon]

21 hours ago, Grubster said:

Please give one example of NK surprising the US intelligence. We have been monitoring their tediously slow advance in nuclear technology for many years. They have sent a few missiles up and you and I do not know if any of those could hit a target, but our intelligence probably know the likelihood of it. 

 

     This has everything to do with how advanced our Military hardware, software etc. are.  Their missiles have no chance, their planes have no chance, their tanks have no chance and their troops have no chance.

 

  Please don't forget the examples of how NK brilliance surprised US intelligence.

 

[Grubster]

51 minutes ago, baboon said:

 

Still a pile of garbage that will never be a real threat to the US, China, Russia or most other nations. Does the fact that this guy has a hard time with the English language make him very credible.  Don't worry the war mongers will succeed in getting public support to attack NK, they just will not get my support.

[Morch]

14 hours ago, Grubster said:

US intelligence has been better or on par with the Russians for many years. US intelligence does not tell citizens like you or me what they know. The fact that the US has seemingly been caught off guard a couple times does not mean that they didn't know what was going to or could happen.  They also work for the war machine.

     So you don't think NK was interested in missiles and nukes immediately after WW2, and surely after the Korean war?

 

 You don't know how effective our antiballistic missiles are but you do know we have had them for forty years or more and I'm guessing we have them figured out better than anyone else, to stop the one or two missiles that NK might send we could have many missiles launched to intercept them.

 

 Their is only two ways that this disaster can happen one is they attack someone, two is someone attacks them. I am dead against the latter no matter how powerful and crazy you think this man is.  Also I do care about the lives of North Koreans, they have done nothing wrong but be born under a crazed family dictatorship.

 

What does Russian intelligence capability and how it compares with the US's got to do with the topic at hand? And again, nothing said about current accesses to classified information, just worth bearing in mind that (a) some of these issues were aired in public over the years, and (b) most of us had previous lives before becoming TVF posters. The "war machine" moniker is useless when if the intent is to engage in meaningful discussion.

 

Pretty much every country with security issues was "interested" to some degree or another in missile and nuclear technology since those appeared on world stage. That doesn't mean that such countries had the capability to achieve much on that front. Concrete knowledge regarding the full scale of the NK programs was not readily available for many years, and even at present, I dare say it is not nearing the level you claim.

 

The issue of anti-ballistic missile systems is not all that hush hush. There's plenty of information out there to review. That there were attempts to develop such systems for decades does not mean that results were ever satisfactory. Obviously there weren't many opportunities to test these under battle conditions. Again, not an issue of whether the US systems are better than those developed by other countries. You may do well to  read the link provided earlier on the topic.

 

Once more, I'm not advocating an attack on NK. Quite the opposite. That it might come to this, is another matter.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Morch

[Grubster]

16 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, no, it was the Chinese who gave the US a "right touch up last time."

Yes they sure did, the US lost less than 40,000 troops in the entire war and ended up with the same border that had been agreed on in 1945. The communist invaders who came through the 38th parallel slaughtering S Koreans were pushed back and lost a million troops, a right touch up?

[maewang99]

we never will 'must' to.....

so let's just drop this topic altogether. but... for those who would still worry about nuclear proliferation... and nuclear war... let's suggest a restart..... 

with maybe Pakistan...or the Trumpie Poohs (Donald & Ivanka)..... at the top of the worry list instead.



 

Edited July 10, 2017 by maewang99