Thai Transport Minister says phase 1 of high speed rail line to begin construction in October

[worgeordie]

Anything that goes fast here is going to have problems.

regards Worgeordie

[Dave67]

5 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Believe "phase 1" this is just the 3.5 Km section. Ultimately it will probably be turned into a SEZ, or Rot Fai Talat.

That's about as long as high-speed Demo track, so they may be playing with words when they say phase1

[Srikcir]

On 7/19/2017 at 2:33 PM, webfact said:

all pertinent agreements will be concluded by September so that construction of the railway can begin in October.

TRANSLATION:

After now 12 meetings the Prayut government still cannot confirm the financial agreement with China.

July 3, 2017: "there are still hurdles to overcome, with the terms of the loan continuing to be a major sticking point."

This is for a loan up to Bt170 billion from China. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/opinion/30319724

 

Deputy premier Somkid Jatusripitak for Economic Affairs admitted the project would not generate big returns to cover the entire cost. But he pointed to Japan’s famous Shinkansen train system that started with few passengers in the initial years, but it later proved to be more popular after five decades.  http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/national/30319177

 

Prayut is not concerned about economics of the project. He's got immunity from prosecution.

 

[Dave67]

Shinkansen has been running for over 50 years because the Japenese built it properly. 

[Redline]

15 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Had massive problems in Malaysia where locals had made their own crossing for cars, and motorbikes talking about two trains a day so when we modernized the system.locals actually complained when we fenced their crossings off. So to keep them happy dedicated motorbike bridges were built, If the railway crosses a major road route a proper bridge will need to be built. One thing I've not seen in any announcement is that a feasibility study has been carried out.

A feasibility study is not feasible at this time~got to spend quick!

[Redline]

2 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Shinkansen has been running for over 50 years because the Japenese built it properly. 

Unfortunately the Japanese  don't offer kickbacks, favors or cheap military hardware

Edited July 20, 2017 by Redline

[garbolino]

On 7/19/2017 at 7:46 PM, yankee99 said:

almost 3 years to build a underpass in pattaya...makes you wonder

and it is still NOT open !!!!!!

[webfact]

UPDATE:

First phase construction of Thailand-China railway project to start in Oct

 

KUALA LUMPUR: The construction work on the first phase of Thailand-China railway project is slated to begin in October, a China's news portal reported today.

 

People’s Daily Online reported that the Chinese Embassy in Bangkok in a statement on Saturday said both countries are currently speeding up works to ink two contracts of the first phase next month.

 

"It is a new significant progress that the project made after being approved by Thai cabinet and Thailand's National Legislative Assembly," the statement read.

 

Full story: https://www.nst.com.my/world/2017/08/270142/first-phase-construction-thailand-china-railway-project-start-oct

 

-- NEW STRAITS TIMES 2017-08-22

[Ricardo]

But the financing-deal is yet to be agreed, as reported in this thread from a week ago  ...

 

 

[Dave67]

"The negotiations of the design work contract of the first phase and price were concluded during the 20th meeting of Joint Committee on Railway Cooperation between Thailand and China."

 

"During the project, the Chinese side will be responsible for the design work and supervision, which will incorporate many Thai engineers and architects while the Thais will be responsible for construction work."

 

 "During the project " If you don't have a design how can construction start, I doubt you could design a so called high speed railway in 6 weeks and using the word "During" meaning they will be making it up they go along, 

 

This is going to be an expensive disaster.

[Thian]

It seems the Chinese accepted the interestrate  the Thai offered....

[Srikcir]

33 minutes ago, Thian said:

It seems the Chinese accepted the interestrate  the Thai offered....

Why not the reverse ... Thailand accepted the interest rate the Chinese offered?

China recognizes the risk for loan default brought to light particularly when Prayut invoked Article 44 to expedite the project. That included bypassing the necessary economic analysis to determine project financial viability.

 

Recently (and I paraphrase from memory) the Thai government said that the project's economic viability will not depend on revenues from passenger and cargo loads but on revenues that will be generated from supposed business startups on properties along the rail route. Not only "apples & oranges" but there is no infrastructure to immediately support new business along the rail route. From this perspective China would be justified to charge a higher interest rate than typically offered on rail projects.

[RichardColeman]

Unless phase 1 is : Training Thai people in the use of Railway crossings, the venture is doomed to failure.

[Antioc]

I'm sure that China will be involved with construction as well as the Thai Government.  After all they are providing the funds and will be careful to ensure that they are not wasted.  Give it time, Thailand will draw from the experience of Chinese engineers who have built successful railways where Farang engineers have insisted it was impossible.  The Chinese Tibet rail link, for example, is an incredible engineering achievement.  Thai's are no slouches at building infrastructure, take a look at some of the road projects underway right now.  Take the Bangkok skytrain as an example, the Victorian Government in Australia can't decide on how to approach putting in a similar service to their Melbourne Airport.  There is no rail link because for more than 40 years no-one is able to approve a start.  I give full marks to Thailand, they're out there doing it.  In 50 years Australia will be a back water if they don't start moving their buts.  A recent report on US infrastructure also painted a poor picture, much of it is reaching the end of it's life and is not being renewed.

[dinsdale]

On 7/19/2017 at 2:33 PM, webfact said:

once the government secures the cooperation of China

Mmmm? I think this should read .....once all the under the table deals have been sorted

[Ricardo]

23 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Recently (and I paraphrase from memory) the Thai government said that the project's economic viability will not depend on revenues from passenger and cargo loads but on revenues that will be generated from supposed business startups on properties along the rail route. Not only "apples & oranges" but there is no infrastructure to immediately support new business along the rail route. From this perspective China would be justified to charge a higher interest rate than typically offered on rail projects.

 

" but on revenues that will be generated from supposed business startups on properties along the rail route "

 

I look forward with great interest, to seeing how they're going to manage to achieve that one, but perhaps I'm too cynical about there being a culture of tax-dodging & corruption here in Thailand.

[Srikcir]

14 hours ago, Antioc said:

I'm sure that China will be involved with construction as well as the Thai Government.  After all they are providing the funds and will be careful to ensure that they are not wasted.

Just to be clear ...

The Chinese funds to be provided are loans up to Bt170 billion. China will have no vested capital investment in the project such as in a joint venture. China will be a lender. Project budget overruns are entirely Thailand's burden.  http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/opinion/30319724

The first phase Nakhon Ratchasima-Nong Khai cost estimate was Bt179 billion. So it would seem that Prayut is financing almost 100% of the first section from the Chinese.

 

Of the total Bt179 billion cost, about Bt44 billion – 25% of the whole budget – would be given to China. This split reflects the division of work between Thailand and China. I believe that Thailand would be responsible for infrastructure construction such as tunnels, bridges, stations, crossings, etc. and China would be responsible for the train, dispatch and control systems. Essentially China will build as a contractor the proprietary portion of the project.

[Curt1591]

Has anyone explained a need for this high speed rail? All I can figure is that it is a great opportunity for corruption. 
 

Quote

Thai government said that the project's economic viability will not depend on revenues from passenger and cargo loads but on revenues that will be generated from supposed business startups on properties along the rail route.

With its length just over 200 kilometers, how many stops is it going to make and still be classified as "high speed"? I mean, isn't the concept to get from Point A, to Point B, as quickly as possible? I can vision a lot of business opportunities in between.

Anyone giving odds on whether, after the loan money pours in, anything gets built?

[Ricardo]

3 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

Has anyone explained a need for this high speed rail? All I can figure is that it is a great opportunity for corruption. 

<snip forbrevity>

 

Yes, this is one part of the first Chinese standard-gauge double-track line to the Thai ports & industrial-areas, the first section includes part of that route plus the branch on to Bangkok, probably IMO to ensure that this too gets built.  Mustn't bypass the capital !

 

There will be a lot of freight moving down from China, and less moving in the opposite direction, there will be freight to/from Laos, there will be some sort of freight-interchange in Bangkok onto the SRT meter-gauge network & possibly down to Malaysia/Singapore, there will be a big improvement in passenger-transport times between Isaan & the capital, there may be international passenger-traffic too.

 

It was earlier proposed that the Thai-section of this major Chinese strategic/economic plan would be a partnership, this has been abandoned for-now & Thailand is going-it-alone (but with limited Chinese-loans), for the first section at-least.  What might happen on the other sections, as the real costs become apparent, remains to be seen.

 

Everyone who (now) owns land along the route hopes to become rich, although I'm not sure how a medium-speed (it's really not true high-speed) railway-line going past is supposed to achieve that, the Chinese apparently wanted some of that gravy too, also some unspecified (so far) Thai-government assets, as part of the deal they didn't get.

 

One can't blame them for asking  ...  and of course there will be plenty of corruption, which is why Thai politicians & power-groups have been salivating for a decade and more, over the prospect.

 

 

[ratcatcher]

20 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

 

Yes, this is one part of the first Chinese standard-gauge double-track line to the Thai ports & industrial-areas, the first section includes part of that route plus the branch on to Bangkok, probably IMO to ensure that this too gets built.  Mustn't bypass the capital !

 

There will be a lot of freight moving down from China, and less moving in the opposite direction, there will be freight to/from Laos, there will be some sort of freight-interchange in Bangkok onto the SRT meter-gauge network & possibly down to Malaysia/Singapore, there will be a big improvement in passenger-transport times between Isaan & the capital, there may be international passenger-traffic too.

 

It was earlier proposed that the Thai-section of this major Chinese strategic/economic plan would be a partnership, this has been abandoned for-now & Thailand is going-it-alone (but with limited Chinese-loans), for the first section at-least.  What might happen on the other sections, as the real costs become apparent, remains to be seen.

 

Everyone who (now) owns land along the route hopes to become rich, although I'm not sure how a medium-speed (it's really not true high-speed) railway-line going past is supposed to achieve that, the Chinese apparently wanted some of that gravy too, also some unspecified (so far) Thai-government assets, as part of the deal they didn't get.

 

One can't blame them for asking  ...  and of course there will be plenty of corruption, which is why Thai politicians & power-groups have been salivating for a decade and more, over the prospect.

 

 

"'although I'm not sure how a medium-speed (it's really not true high-speed) railway-line"

Thank you for pointing that out. 

The Thai government has been using pictures of "Japanese bullet trains and TGV style equipment in its ads for this dreamy new railway system they plan.The section Bangkok to Korat may well be designed for some kind of "HST" but the Chinese plan to link Laos to Thailand's port at Laem Chabang to carry mainly freight surely will not be HST as we know it. No country using HST equipment mixes freight trains with passenger trains.The UK's fast trains have always shared trackage with freight trains. There is much confusion and poor reporting on this whole subject by the media, probably because they do not have the terminology or expertise to explain the differences.

As an ex-railroader, I stand to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable.

 

[josephbloggs]

I

Shinkansen has been running for over 50 years because the Japenese built it properly. 

 

These threads always attract the "Chinese railways are poorly built", "there'll be disasters "blah blah blah type posts. Consider that China has over 20,000 kms of high speed rail. Japan has about 2,700kms. So more than ten times the size. China has around 70% of all the high speed rail traffic in the world.

 

Do they fall off the track all the time? Have any of you ever ridden on one? I remember one fatal accident after one got struck by lightning, stalled, then another smashed into the back of it. It was a bad one with 40 dead but anything crashing at that speed is not going to be good. How many others have there been? They must happen all the time judging by comments here. But there have been none in the six years since that one.

 

So that's one fatal accident over the huge account of traffic they have. Germany has had many more incidents and many more fatalities over the same period of time with a network a fraction of the size.

 

Spain has a worse record too.

 

These posts are lazy and somewhat condescending / borderline racist as the fact is their safety record is better than most. And better than many European countries who clearly have superior engineering and superior safety standards.

 

[Curt1591]

Freight could be the ticket. That would make sense.

It all still smells of Hopewell.
 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Curt1591

[Curt1591]

5 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

I

 

These threads always attract the "Chinese railways are poorly built", "there'll be disasters "blah blah blah type posts. Consider that China has over 20,000 kms of high speed rail. Japan has about 2,700kms. So more than ten times the size. China has around 70% of all the high speed rail traffic in the world.

 

Do they fall off the track all the time? Have any of you ever ridden on one? I remember one fatal accident after one got struck by lightning, stalled, then another smashed into the back of it. It was a bad one with 40 dead but anything crashing at that speed is not going to be good. How many others have there been? They must happen all the time judging by comments here. But there have been none in the six years since that one.

 

So that's one fatal accident over the huge account of traffic they have. Germany has had many more incidents and many more fatalities over the same period of time with a network a fraction of the size.

 

Spain has a worse record too.

 

These posts are lazy and somewhat condescending / borderline racist as the fact is their safety record is better than most. And better than many European countries who clearly have superior engineering and superior safety standards.

 

At this point in time, the Chinese will play the part of the bank. God only knows who will design, engineer and build it.

 

[coulson]

Big dependant clause missing from the headline, pending Chinese cooperation.

[ratcatcher]

6 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

At this point in time, the Chinese will play the part of the bank. God only knows who will design, engineer and build it.

 

The Chinese will build it and they will come. As JoeBloggs said, the Chinese can build railways quite well thank you..

[coulson]

6 years ago i heard rumour about bkk to pattaya hi speed rail,  then read articles  about it was to go ahead last year. 
 
what the .......  are they doing about it now ?  is it scrapped ? 

No,but that's subject to as much giggles on another news thread started last week.

[DekDaeng]

I
 
These threads always attract the "Chinese railways are poorly built", "there'll be disasters "blah blah blah type posts. Consider that China has over 20,000 kms of high speed rail. Japan has about 2,700kms. So more than ten times the size. China has around 70% of all the high speed rail traffic in the world.
 
Do they fall off the track all the time? Have any of you ever ridden on one? I remember one fatal accident after one got struck by lightning, stalled, then another smashed into the back of it. It was a bad one with 40 dead but anything crashing at that speed is not going to be good. How many others have there been? They must happen all the time judging by comments here. But there have been none in the six years since that one.
 
So that's one fatal accident over the huge account of traffic they have. Germany has had many more incidents and many more fatalities over the same period of time with a network a fraction of the size.
 
Spain has a worse record too.
 
These posts are lazy and somewhat condescending / borderline racist as the fact is their safety record is better than most. And better than many European countries who clearly have superior engineering and superior safety standards.
 

& after the Chinese accident, what did they do?
Buried what was left, AQAP -


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DekDaeng]

& after the Chinese accident, what did they do?

Buried what was left, AQAP -

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I imagined passengers rellys at destination being told 'no, there was no 7.38 from Beijing! What are you talking about? No, you were always an orphan!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[josephbloggs]

& after the Chinese accident, what did they do?
Buried what was left, AQAP -


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, it was dealt with in a typically Communist government way and that was wrong. But my post was about the generally very impressive safety record of their railways and not the response to their single fatal accident.

[DekDaeng]

I imagined passengers rellys at destination being told 'no, there was no 7.38 from Beijing!

What are you talking about?

Parents? Don't lie!

No, you always were an orphan!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk