Britain says free movement of people with EU will end after Brexit

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, buddhalady said:

I find it sad that no-one on this thread has mentioned the post-Brexit plight of Brit expats who chose to live in France, Spain or other EU member states rather than Thailand or another SE Asian country.

 

 

 

If nothing else, I’d have expected some concern for those who might lose everything and be forced back to a country they deliberately left, in the same manner as did those of us now living here. Expected ….yes, but I’d forgotten this is the Thai Visa forum, famed for its lack of compassion and empathy.

 

 

 

My mistake.

 

Good point!

 

My sister and brother in law built a house and retired in Aragon (as in Katherine). Spanish speaking and fully integrated. I stay with them for a few weeks each year. Lovely; far from the awful costas.

 

They're not worried. They feel the EU and Spanish governments are more to be trusted than our own. I think they're right!

[Khun Han]

47 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

 

I thought an English Language O level/GCSE was always a requirement for most degree courses. Maybe semiconductor science is different? Or maybe someone likes to make things up?

[nauseus]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

Khun Han is of course a storch (six)  Brexiteer so we permit him his victories however small. ?

Fieseler Fi 156 Storch  

 

or squak!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, jinners said:

No, you like many other remainers are confused. Brexiteers knew it was about immigration as well as controlling our own laws and making our own decisions. There was and still isn't any confusion. Except for you.

I beg to differ! We have been informed continually that immigration was not what persuaded the Brexiters here to vote to leave the EU. It was sovereignty, mainly, plus the thought of how much Eurocrats earn compared to the average vegetable picking professional.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I beg to differ! We have been informed continually that immigration was not what persuaded the Brexiters here to vote to leave the EU. It was sovereignty, mainly, plus the thought of how much Eurocrats earn compared to the average vegetable picking professional.

Blue passport, don't forget the blue passport!

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I thought an English Language O level/GCSE was always a requirement for most degree courses. Maybe semiconductor science is different? Or maybe someone likes to make things up?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malapropism

 

Its from Sheriden's The Rivals. I'm would have thought an educated man like you would know that!

 

Since you ask, German was a requirement for Chemistry at Durham! 

 

?

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Fieseler Fi 156 Storch  

 

or squak!

Did you know Hanna Reitsch?

Edited July 28, 2017 by Grouse

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Did you know Hanna Reitsch?

 

Only briefly, unfortunately. Here she is waving me off after we did the Stuka air brake tests together. 

 

 

[buddhalady]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Its 'cos you're missing the point - there are far more EU people in the UK than UK 'expats' in the EU.

 

So its easy to surmise that an agreement will be reached on this issue.

I' m not missing the point - not my style....but what I should have included in my post is that the majority of Brits in Europe are there for retirement , just as are the majority of British expats in Thailand.

 

In contrast, the majority of the four million plus EU expats in the UK are working professionals and should be able to retain their positions post-Brexit if their input is considered essential by their employers.  If I remember correctly, long-stayers such as those married to British citizens will be offered permanent residency based on a five-year or more stay once the EU divorce is finalised. If, or course, it ever is.....

 

The above does not apply to British retirees who've chosen for financial reasons to live in warmer, more welcoming countries and have based their final years' plans on staying there, protected by the reciprocal European Health card. Given the state of the UK right now, I can't see any retirees welcoming the fact they're about to be kicked out of their chosen country and forced to return to a country where they can no longer afford to rent or buy a property or afford private health insurance as a protection against the failing NHS .

 

Same may well apply to Brit expats here some way down the line....

 

 

[dunroaming]

22 hours ago, KunMatt said:

Brexit means no single market and no freedom of movement.  That's what we were told time and time and time again before the referendum.

We were all told lots of things before the referendum and most of them were lies or promises that wouldn't be fulfilled.  If you look again at what Lewis says he is giving himself lots of wriggle room. 

 

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:57 AM, webfact said:

"Once we have left the EU, this government will apply its own immigration rules and requirements that will meet the needs of UK businesses, but also of wider society," Interior Minister Amber Rudd said in an article in the Financial Times.

 

"I also want to reassure businesses and EU nationals that we will ensure there is no 'cliff edge' once we leave the bloc," Rudd said.

Well British businesses have said they want unhindered access to EU workers to maintain their staffing levels.  As for no cliff edge that means years of a transitional period which Hammond is saying that at the moment they cannot put a time scale on.

 

In other words this latest "statement" means nothing.

[Retiredandhappyhere]

On 7/27/2017 at 3:10 PM, Grouse said:

Senseless morons 

 

What is the point of making that statement now?

 

Goodbye single market, goodbye customs union

 

I was aware that an embarrassingly large proportion of the electorate are numpties, but I am surprised to see numpties in positions where they can cause real damage!

My God, you are such a condescending person!  Note that I refrained from using your abusive terminology for anyone who voted for Brexit and does not conform to your views.  

[Retiredandhappyhere]

6 hours ago, Nurseynutcase said:

Whooah - hang on there!!!!!!!  As a Brexiteer I have seen a drop in my income of around 25% - I would still vote to leave as I am sick to death of propping up ailing countries and Britain being flooded with immigrants who only wish to benefit from the Uks very generous welfare society.

In that case, I believe you were, in fact, in agreement with the poster to whom you responded.

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, Nurseynutcase said:

Whooah - hang on there!!!!!!!  As a Brexiteer I have seen a drop in my income of around 25% - I would still vote to leave as I am sick to death of propping up ailing countries and Britain being flooded with immigrants who only wish to benefit from the Uks very generous welfare society.

Candidate for post-Brexit Minister of Economics.

[Grouse]

27 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

My God, you are such a condescending person!  Note that I refrained from using your abusive terminology for anyone who voted for Brexit and does not conform to your views.  

I was being polite. Do you want me to say what I really think? BTW, I don't mind how anyone voted; it's the irrational poorly informed thought processes that get my goat. One would have thought that people would really educate themselves and bone up on the facts before taking such an important decision, but no; not the numpty way I assume ?

[dunroaming]

It's been said before but Brexit for ex-pats in Thailand won't have much if any impact except that the pound will be considerably weaker than it was.  I enjoyed my life in Thailand very much,  cheap housing and prices and lax laws and the tax I paid for my business there was pathetically low.  All in all I benefited enormously from being there.  Now back in the UK I have different benefits though the weather isn't one of them! 

 

However one thing that is really noticeable is the way that the EU citizens are essential to life here.  From the carers who look after my elderly neighbour to the doctors in the hospital where my wife is spending far too much time at the moment to the gas installers who have just fitted a new boiler.  To lose these people would be a disaster for the UK because there are not the British equivalents available to do the jobs.

 

So to the ex-pats, enjoy your lives in Thailand, I did, but please don't think that you know what is best for the UK unless you live there.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

I was being polite. Do you want me to say what I really think? BTW, I don't mind how anyone voted; it's the irrational poorly informed thought processes that get my goat. One would have thought that people would really educate themselves and bone up on the facts before taking such an important decision, but no; not the numpty way I assume ?

I re-educated myself months before the referendum and was shocked to find what I did. I ignored the mainstream lies and propaganda (from both sides) and tried to research sensible reading, speeches and documentaries. Arguments with far more actual facts were put by the leave campaign - remain side counters against these arguments were surprisingly lacking (I did try to find these for balance but couldn't). "Safer and stronger together" just didn't cut it for me.

 

The main leave points made by various campaigners (none seriously challenged or disputed by the leave side) were:

 

Sovereignty - UK sovereignty has been steadily eroded since 1973. The EEC common market mutated, "ever closer", to becoming a federal state, which the people of the UK did surely did not approve in the referendum of 1975. The broad population wrongly assumed that the EEC was purely economic and trading arrangement. The majority of British people do not wish their country to become a cluster of regions within a European federal state. EU bureaucracy and power is centralizing and eroding decision making powers from both national and local governments. The introduction of qualified majority voting allows decisions to be made against the interest of a single member. Most Britons still value their sovereignty and have shown that they want to be British. 

 

Democracy - the British system of government and constitution could be improved but it is still far preferable to this EU structure, with a selected group of commissioners basically running the show. Several of these commissioners are just second-rate so-called politicians put into place by already established pals or by arrangement and/or agreement with other allies. The anti-democratic nature of the EU government and the significant rewards of being part of it encourage a dictatorial mind-set and large scale corruption - the 1999 commission fraud scandal is enough evidence of that! The EU commission is the only EU body with power to propose new laws and regulations and at least 10,000 of its 33,000 "advisors" are estimated to be paid more than £70,000 p.a., so there is certainly advantage to being a loyal and obedient servant! There are obviously much higher rewards enjoyed by anyone above "advisor" pay grade.  

 

Law /Justice - UK law is secondary to EU law, which comprises more than 50% of new laws. The majority of (informed) British people showed that they don't want that. They also do not want to lose their freedoms and rights e.g. to be presumed innocent of any crime before being proved guilty and they rejected a regime of corpus juris. The majority of British people showed that they do not want the imposition of endless regulations and laws that are not made in the UK but which override British Law. 

 

The EU can't even abide by its own rules. EU (Dublin) Regulation(s) specify that asylum applications must be processed at the point of entry into the EU. Greece and Italy have failed to fulfill these obligations and assistance from the EU is farcical, especially by Merkel who has done the opposite. Parts of the Lisbon Treaty have been ignored in order to keep Greece afloat.

 

Immigration - needs complete control now. Freedom of movement used to be for EC/EU workers only, now its the whole show. UK housing and all services cannot keep pace with the ridiculous rate of influx, both from the EU and elsewhere. Our green and pleasant land is disappearing fast enough as it is!

 

Economy and cost - at least 10 billion Euros net per year is paid into the EU coffers by the UK and even Maggie Thatcher's rebate is likely to disappear soon. If we stay in then it can only be a matter of time before the Euro is forced upon the UK in place of sterling. The Euro has already shown itself as being unfit for purpose for several of the countries with previously weaker national economies. The scale of money creation and bond buying by ECB is similar to that of the US after 2008. The final downside of this is almost certainly yet to be seen, on both continents. Many parts of the EU are still plagued by high debt and unemployment and the EU still has the worst economic performance in the developed world, despite attempts to slap some kind of tax on just about everything! Ultimately, if we stay in, the EU will no doubt request all of the assets of the B o E be transferred to the ECB - once the UK currency and assets are gone, then the UK economy is gone and there is no way back!

 

Efficiency - The EU is not run efficiently. In fact it is wasteful, as shown by the ridiculous migration of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg for just 4 days each month, mainly to keep French noses in the air! The Common Agricultural Policy chews up 40% of the budget, again mainly for the benefit of French farmers (subsidies). The CAP has led to higher prices for consumers although some reform has reduced some of the initial wastage. But the CAP has provided little benefit and the UK should have been much tougher with this from day one. Ditto, of course the Common Fishing Policy, which has been a disaster for British fishing since we joined the EEC in 1973. 

 

The Future - (imho)

Without the necessary shock (of Brexit) the EU will not reform. Possibly now it will, a bit. But unchecked it will continue down its path to becoming a federal superstate. The EU up to now has stubbornly refused reform (you can ask Cameron about that). The people that control the EU are not able to be easily removed but at least the members of the British parliament are. Personally, after observing the Eurocrats in action, I do not see any way to be able to trust them or give them ward of my country, especially as it seems that the wasteful mismanagement of the EU will continue, or probably worsen.

 

The real question of the referendum was really "Do you want to be a Briton or a European"? I always preferred the first option. 

 

If they could just have stuck with a common market all would be good.  

 

 

 

[KhonJaiYen]

'my Thai daughter (UK passport) can go to university in Germany or The Netherlands and be taught in English with no tuition fees.' 

Classic!

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The real question of the referendum was really "Do you want to be a Briton or a European"? I always preferred the first option. 

I think you make some valid points in your detailed post. And some of it I think is not valid.  However there is no point in arguing over and over again about the same thing.  Therefore I have quoted just one line which I think is the nub.  I think of myself as being a European because I am. I live in a European country but that doesn't mean that I am not also an Englishman and proud of that too.  The EU is very flawed and has been for long time like all big (probably over big) corporations.  Then you have two choices, either work to change the system from within or walk away (cutting your nose off to spite your face). 

[johnnyonesock]

On 7/27/2017 at 8:03 PM, Grouse said:

I want my greater family to be able to work where they like, live where they like and retire where they like.

 

What kind of Numpty would not agree with that? ( a few fruit & veg pickers and some bar staff. Great!)

 

Is is ingnoramuses or ignoremi? Replies on a post card please!

typical remainer complaining about the result of a referendum to take back sovereignty and yet happily lives in a  foreign country where citizenship is virtually impossible ,u have to jump thru hoops to get a visa and the purchase of land is unavailable to you..come to think of it the UK should model its Brexit reforms on Thailand because it hasnt destroyed their economy has it

[PaddyDaddy]

What a croc of sh*t. Are you guys in or out? Really we won't miss you as much as you think

[prestburypark]

1 hour ago, PaddyDaddy said:

What a croc of sh*t. Are you guys in or out? Really we won't miss you as much as you think

Go on go on go on, you don't love us? Thats sooo hurtful xx

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, prestburypark said:

3 hours ago, PaddyDaddy said:

What a croc of sh*t. Are you guys in or out? Really we won't miss you as much as you think

Go on go on go on, you don't love us? Thats sooo hurtful xx

 

They weally, weally don't miss us. So much so that they feel the need to go on the internet to tell us. It's not like they could just, well, not miss us to the point that they couldn't be bothered to even comment about us, is it?

Edited July 28, 2017 by Khun Han

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, dunroaming said:

I think you make some valid points in your detailed post. And some of it I think is not valid.  However there is no point in arguing over and over again about the same thing.  Therefore I have quoted just one line which I think is the nub.  I think of myself as being a European because I am. I live in a European country but that doesn't mean that I am not also an Englishman and proud of that too.  The EU is very flawed and has been for long time like all big (probably over big) corporations.  Then you have two choices, either work to change the system from within or walk away (cutting your nose off to spite your face). 

I consider all my points as valid otherwise I wouldn't have bothered writing them down. There has never been a decent counter argument from anyone on this site to dispute these. Which ones are not true? Regarding change from within, well I refer to that when I mention the EU's historical reluctance to reform.

Edited July 29, 2017 by nauseus

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

I consider all my points as valid otherwise I wouldn't have bothered writing them down. There has never been a decent counter argument from anyone on this site to dispute these. Which ones are not true? Regarding change from within, well I refer to that when I mention the EU's historical reluctance to reform.

What you fail to address is the European Union Act 2011, which clearly states that EU law is only permissable in UK domestic law whilst parliament permits, (as evidenced by the current repeal bill going through parliament ).

 

Also the Act ensures that any transfer of powers from UK to EU requires a referendum 

 

[nauseus]

46 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

What you fail to address is the European Union Act 2011, which clearly states that EU law is only permissable in UK domestic law whilst parliament permits, (as evidenced by the current repeal bill going through parliament ).

 

Also the Act ensures that any transfer of powers from UK to EU requires a referendum 

 

What you fail address are any of my points. This always happens but never mind, I'm used to it. The European Union Act 2011 was not mentioned because it is not part of my list of negative aspects of the EU. The final version is quite weak on the issue of sovereignty and the Act was introduced after The Lisbon Treaty and as a result of conflict between the Con/Lib Dem coalition government.    

 

[SheungWan]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

I re-educated myself months before the referendum and was shocked to find what I did. I ignored the mainstream lies and propaganda (from both sides) and tried to research sensible reading, speeches and documentaries. Arguments with far more actual facts were put by the leave campaign - remain side counters against these arguments were surprisingly lacking (I did try to find these for balance but couldn't). "Safer and stronger together" just didn't cut it for me.

 

The main leave points made by various campaigners (none seriously challenged or disputed by the leave side) were:

 

Sovereignty - UK sovereignty has been steadily eroded since 1973. The EEC common market mutated, "ever closer", to becoming a federal state, which the people of the UK did surely did not approve in the referendum of 1975. The broad population wrongly assumed that the EEC was purely economic and trading arrangement. The majority of British people do not wish their country to become a cluster of regions within a European federal state. EU bureaucracy and power is centralizing and eroding decision making powers from both national and local governments. The introduction of qualified majority voting allows decisions to be made against the interest of a single member. Most Britons still value their sovereignty and have shown that they want to be British. 

 

Democracy - the British system of government and constitution could be improved but it is still far preferable to this EU structure, with a selected group of commissioners basically running the show. Several of these commissioners are just second-rate so-called politicians put into place by already established pals or by arrangement and/or agreement with other allies. The anti-democratic nature of the EU government and the significant rewards of being part of it encourage a dictatorial mind-set and large scale corruption - the 1999 commission fraud scandal is enough evidence of that! The EU commission is the only EU body with power to propose new laws and regulations and at least 10,000 of its 33,000 "advisors" are estimated to be paid more than £70,000 p.a., so there is certainly advantage to being a loyal and obedient servant! There are obviously much higher rewards enjoyed by anyone above "advisor" pay grade.  

 

Law /Justice - UK law is secondary to EU law, which comprises more than 50% of new laws. The majority of (informed) British people showed that they don't want that. They also do not want to lose their freedoms and rights e.g. to be presumed innocent of any crime before being proved guilty and they rejected a regime of corpus juris. The majority of British people showed that they do not want the imposition of endless regulations and laws that are not made in the UK but which override British Law. 

 

The EU can't even abide by its own rules. EU (Dublin) Regulation(s) specify that asylum applications must be processed at the point of entry into the EU. Greece and Italy have failed to fulfill these obligations and assistance from the EU is farcical, especially by Merkel who has done the opposite. Parts of the Lisbon Treaty have been ignored in order to keep Greece afloat.

 

Immigration - needs complete control now. Freedom of movement used to be for EC/EU workers only, now its the whole show. UK housing and all services cannot keep pace with the ridiculous rate of influx, both from the EU and elsewhere. Our green and pleasant land is disappearing fast enough as it is!

 

Economy and cost - at least 10 billion Euros net per year is paid into the EU coffers by the UK and even Maggie Thatcher's rebate is likely to disappear soon. If we stay in then it can only be a matter of time before the Euro is forced upon the UK in place of sterling. The Euro has already shown itself as being unfit for purpose for several of the countries with previously weaker national economies. The scale of money creation and bond buying by ECB is similar to that of the US after 2008. The final downside of this is almost certainly yet to be seen, on both continents. Many parts of the EU are still plagued by high debt and unemployment and the EU still has the worst economic performance in the developed world, despite attempts to slap some kind of tax on just about everything! Ultimately, if we stay in, the EU will no doubt request all of the assets of the B o E be transferred to the ECB - once the UK currency and assets are gone, then the UK economy is gone and there is no way back!

 

Efficiency - The EU is not run efficiently. In fact it is wasteful, as shown by the ridiculous migration of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg for just 4 days each month, mainly to keep French noses in the air! The Common Agricultural Policy chews up 40% of the budget, again mainly for the benefit of French farmers (subsidies). The CAP has led to higher prices for consumers although some reform has reduced some of the initial wastage. But the CAP has provided little benefit and the UK should have been much tougher with this from day one. Ditto, of course the Common Fishing Policy, which has been a disaster for British fishing since we joined the EEC in 1973. 

 

The Future - (imho)

Without the necessary shock (of Brexit) the EU will not reform. Possibly now it will, a bit. But unchecked it will continue down its path to becoming a federal superstate. The EU up to now has stubbornly refused reform (you can ask Cameron about that). The people that control the EU are not able to be easily removed but at least the members of the British parliament are. Personally, after observing the Eurocrats in action, I do not see any way to be able to trust them or give them ward of my country, especially as it seems that the wasteful mismanagement of the EU will continue, or probably worsen.

 

The real question of the referendum was really "Do you want to be a Briton or a European"? I always preferred the first option. 

 

If they could just have stuck with a common market all would be good.  

 

I was shocked, deeply shocked I tell you! Stand to attention out there and please stand by for interminable impressionistic twaddle masquerading as research ("Do you want to be a Briton or a European") ...not that most of these guys have the faintest experience of what validated research actually is. Neat paragraphs anyone?

[nauseus]

35 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I was shocked, deeply shocked I tell you! Stand to attention out there and please stand by for interminable impressionistic twaddle masquerading as research ("Do you want to be a Briton or a European") ...not that most of these guys have the faintest experience of what validated research actually is. Neat paragraphs anyone?

Twaddle you call it but you have no argument against any of it do you? SOS - Same Old Straw.

Edited July 29, 2017 by nauseus

[THAILIBAN]

who needs free EU movement anyway when the UK now has more "religious Centers" of a specific kind than Thailand has "SEVEN's"

[nontabury]

On July 28, 2017 at 10:53 AM, brewsterbudgen said:

The Brexit debate is essentially old versus young. Young people to enjoy freedom of movement and the freedom to work anywhere in Europe. The old just want to bring in the drawbridge and be isolated.

Wrong, and this is one of the most distasteful aspects of the Remoaners arguments. Trying to create divisions within our own country. Young v Old, 

Educated v Life Experience. What next Females v Males, Blue eyed v Brown eyed.

Just get over it, the British people voted Democratically to leave this so- called Union.

 

 

[nontabury]

On July 28, 2017 at 0:02 PM, buddhalady said:

I find it sad that no-one on this thread has mentioned the post-Brexit plight of Brit expats who chose to live in France, Spain or other EU member states rather than Thailand or another SE Asian country.

 

 

 

If nothing else, I’d have expected some concern for those who might lose everything and be forced back to a country they deliberately left, in the same manner as did those of us now living here. Expected ….yes, but I’d forgotten this is the Thai Visa forum, famed for its lack of compassion and empathy.

 

 

 

My mistake.

 

Maybe some of us don't take note of scare stories. Example Spain which has very, very high unemployment, do you for one moment think that the Spanish government would even contemplate increasing that number, because that's exactly what would happen, as there are many Spaniards reliant on the Brit, for their employment. These same Brits also bring into Spain large amounts of Money.

 Are you also aware that there are approximately 4x the number of EU nationals living in the UK,compared to UK nationals living in the EU.