Home ownership on death of wife

[DUNROAMIN]

Hi to everyone, To start of my wife has not died. I hope she outlasts me. There is always a lot of talk in this forum about ownership of land and house, most people who have bought a house know that their Thai wife is the owner of the property, unless you have a lease agreement.

It dawned on me the other day what happens if your Thai wife dies unexpectedly, motor bike or car accident, natural causes? what happens to the house and land I am living in? Does the family get it or does the government get it. I was told that if you are legally married in Thailand it can change your status somewhat? Is there anything I can put in place to stop eviction from my home.

Any thoughts or sound advice.

[happylarry]

To start with you need to get your wife to make a legal will leaving it to you. You are then the legal owner but only for one year!!! You have a year to either sell the property or to put it into another Thai persons name. 

Also you need to get your wife to sign a usufruct to you on the property. This allows you to stay in the property for life if you so require, so that when you sign over the title deeds to another Thai name (ie a relative) there is no way they can then force you out against your will.

If there is no will then the legal spouse will inherit 50% and the other 50% is split between the parents of the deceased and the children of the deceased.

Hope this helps.

HL

[DUNROAMIN]

40 minutes ago, happylarry said:

To start with you need to get your wife to make a legal will leaving it to you. You are then the legal owner but only for one year!!! You have a year to either sell the property or to put it into another Thai persons name. 

Also you need to get your wife to sign a usufruct to you on the property. This allows you to stay in the property for life if you so require, so that when you sign over the title deeds to another Thai name (ie a relative) there is no way they can then force you out against your will.

If there is no will then the legal spouse will inherit 50% and the other 50% is split between the parents of the deceased and the children of the deceased.

Hope this helps.

HL

Thanks for the info, how or where do you get this  "Üsufruct". Is this a legal thing done by a solicitor of government office?

[ballbreaker]

The usufruct is obtained at the land office and entry will be made on back of chanote.

Do make sure both you and wife have wills because it makes everything go smoothly in court should someone die.

[tharae]

2 hours ago, happylarry said:

To start with you need to get your wife to make a legal will leaving it to you. You are then the legal owner but only for one year!!! You have a year to either sell the property or to put it into another Thai persons name. 

Also you need to get your wife to sign a usufruct to you on the property. This allows you to stay in the property for life if you so require, so that when you sign over the title deeds to another Thai name (ie a relative) there is no way they can then force you out against your will.

If there is no will then the legal spouse will inherit 50% and the other 50% is split between the parents of the deceased and the children of the deceased.

Hope this helps.

HL

What happens if both parents are deceased and the deceased has no children?

[happylarry]

3 hours ago, tharae said:

What happens if both parents are deceased and the deceased has no children?

Good question.....please see the attached list.  The authorities would just go down the list until they found an appropriate person on the list to give the house to.

HL

 

 

[trogers]

7 minutes ago, happylarry said:

Good question.....please see the attached list.  The authorities would just go down the list until they found an appropriate person on the list to give the house to.

HL

 

 

Give the other half the property to...

 

The first half is to the spouse.

[happylarry]

6 hours ago, DUNROAMIN said:

Thanks for the info, how or where do you get this  "Üsufruct". Is this a legal thing done by a solicitor of government office?

Once again it depends on which land office you go to as to whether they will grant you a usufruct or not, some land offices refuse to grant usufructs to farangs, period, but it is always wise to use a lawyer as other offices wont deal with a farang unless through a lawyer.

Same as always go to your office and ask beforehand and then act accordingly.

HL

[happylarry]

2 minutes ago, trogers said:

Give the other half the property to...

 

The first half is to the spouse.

You need to read the posts my friend, that has already been covered but this question was what if both spouses died.....lol

[henry15]

If the property is less than 1 rai, you can  become the owner of the property, with full ownershiprights, just like  Thai national. So you don't have  sell the propertu within a year. You can even putt it in your will and let inherrent by foreigner. But he must sell within a year

What your wife have to do , is making a last will were she disown the 6 statutaire heirs,  Needles to say you need a good lawyer, who  is willing to go all the way. In the inherritance were I wass the appointed manager of the estate confirmed  by the Civil Court, the procedure to.change  the Ghanotte took about 6 months. This was rather quick due the fact, that none of the 6 statutary heirs  opposed the will.

Its was a test case  and the first succesfull case in Thailand. Total legal amd procedure costs about 350 000 Baht. Not included the fee of the manager of the estate, because I did it for free, because it wass a friend.

[aboctok]

1 hour ago, happylarry said:

You need to read the posts my friend, that has already been covered but this question was what if both spouses died.....lol

Not at all, buddy. The question asked what happens if both parents are deceased, not the two spouses. That is to say, the parents of the deceased wife. Err, "need to read," etc...

Edited August 8, 2017 by aboctok

[happylarry]

11 minutes ago, aboctok said:

Not at all, buddy. The question asked what happens if both parents are deceased, not the two spouses. That is to say, the parents of the deceased wife. Err, "need to read," etc...

Quite right....lol....its me that's getting confused and I apologise profusely.

HL

[khunPer]

OP can read more about "usufruct" here...

 

Agree with above posters that a Last Will is important, if she wish her spouse – OP – to inherit the house-and-land.

[Khun Jean]

4 hours ago, henry15 said:

If the property is less than 1 rai, you can  become the owner of the property, with full ownershiprights, just like  Thai national. So you don't have  sell the propertu within a year. You can even putt it in your will and let inherrent by foreigner. But he must sell within a year

What your wife have to do , is making a last will were she disown the 6 statutaire heirs,  Needles to say you need a good lawyer, who  is willing to go all the way. In the inherritance were I wass the appointed manager of the estate confirmed  by the Civil Court, the procedure to.change  the Ghanotte took about 6 months. This was rather quick due the fact, that none of the 6 statutary heirs  opposed the will.

Its was a test case  and the first succesfull case in Thailand. Total legal amd procedure costs about 350 000 Baht. Not included the fee of the manager of the estate, because I did it for free, because it wass a friend.

The exception that proves the rule.

[DUNROAMIN]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post, plenty of info to get started,

Cheers.

[inThailand]

A 30 year registered lease from your wife for you will also allow you to stay in the house whether she is alive or dead.

 

No messing around with a will, probate or it being contested.

Edited August 9, 2017 by inThailand
fat fingers

[Tofer]

18 hours ago, henry15 said:

If the property is less than 1 rai, you can  become the owner of the property, with full ownershiprights, just like  Thai national. So you don't have  sell the propertu within a year. You can even putt it in your will and let inherrent by foreigner. But he must sell within a year

What your wife have to do , is making a last will were she disown the 6 statutaire heirs,  Needles to say you need a good lawyer, who  is willing to go all the way. In the inherritance were I wass the appointed manager of the estate confirmed  by the Civil Court, the procedure to.change  the Ghanotte took about 6 months. This was rather quick due the fact, that none of the 6 statutary heirs  opposed the will.

Its was a test case  and the first succesfull case in Thailand. Total legal amd procedure costs about 350 000 Baht. Not included the fee of the manager of the estate, because I did it for free, because it wass a friend.

What happens if the property is more than 1 rai?

[topt]

15 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

The exception that proves the rule.

Khun Jean please explain. Is this something other people were aware of as I don't remember reading this ever before - in fact I thought the whole point was that it was not possible?

[Madgee]

The house and the land it is built on are 2 separate entities.

The house you can own.

The house can be in your name with title deeds to that effect.

The land you cannot own.

The land has to sold or transferred to a Thai national within 1 year.

 

Under normal circumstances the land would/could be transferred to a blood relative of the deceased (son/daughter/brother/sister etc.) who would allow you to continue living there in your house. If you have no trust in the family, get a usufruct on the land. 

Obviously, the complications kick in if either party wants to sell up!  

 

The scenario from the Op actually occurred to a friend of mine a couple of years ago and he was made totally aware of his legal options regarding the house and land.

 

 

[inThailand]

The best, easiest, cheapiest and most secure way for you to get the house is a registered lease. 

.

[trogers]

22 minutes ago, Madgee said:

The house and the land it is built on are 2 separate entities.

The house you can own.

The house can be in your name with title deeds to that effect.

The land you cannot own.

The land has to sold or transferred to a Thai national within 1 year.

 

Under normal circumstances the land would/could be transferred to a blood relative of the deceased (son/daughter/brother/sister etc.) who would allow you to continue living there in your house. If you have no trust in the family, get a usufruct on the land. 

Obviously, the complications kick in if either party wants to sell up!  

 

The scenario from the Op actually occurred to a friend of mine a couple of years ago and he was made totally aware of his legal options regarding the house and land.

 

 

Can't imagine a house not sited on land that is part and parcel of a title deed, unless it's a caravan or a raft.

 

Where can I find a house in Thailand with a title deed naming a foreigner as the owner?

[Madgee]

Hi trodgers,

 

12 minutes ago, trogers said:

Can't imagine a house not sited on land that is part and parcel of a title deed, unless it's a caravan or a raft.

 

Where can I find a house in Thailand with a title deed naming a foreigner as the owner?

It is a little known fact but true. I'm sure there are many threads on Thai Visa discussing this topic.

Just Google 'can I own a house in Thailand?' and it comes up with many legal websites about house ownership by a foreigner stating the same facts that I  mentioned.

 

Quite a few foreign friends I know have built houses on family land in their names, not their girlfriends or wives. 

As I mentioned, a friend who lost his young wife to cancer had his options explained to him in detail about a house he bought and paid for which was in her name.

The land and dwelling were 2 separate issues governed by different laws regarding ownership.

My wife has 2 different documents regarding where we live, one for the land which defines the boundaries and one for the dwelling upon the land. 

 

 

 

 

[trogers]

28 minutes ago, Madgee said:

Hi trodgers,

 

It is a little known fact but true. I'm sure there are many threads on Thai Visa discussing this topic.

Just Google 'can I own a house in Thailand?' and it comes up with many legal websites about house ownership by a foreigner stating the same facts that I  mentioned.

 

Quite a few foreign friends I know have built houses on family land in their names, not their girlfriends or wives. 

As I mentioned, a friend who lost his young wife to cancer had his options explained to him in detail about a house he bought and paid for which was in her name.

The land and dwelling were 2 separate issues governed by different laws regarding ownership.

My wife has 2 different documents regarding where we live, one for the land which defines the boundaries and one for the dwelling upon the land. 

 

 

 

 

I know you can lease land and build a house on it. But I didn't know the Land office will issue your house a title deed, separate from the title deed of the land.

[inThailand]

Is not naive that a Thai family of a deceased wife married to a falang will Not contest a will? You want to trust the Thai legal system as well to look after your interests?

 

Isn't executing a standard 30 year lease and registering it, much better?

 

[Khun Jean]

7 hours ago, topt said:

Khun Jean please explain. Is this something other people were aware of as I don't remember reading this ever before - in fact I thought the whole point was that it was not possible?

It is not possible.

'The exception that proves the rule' is just to say that a very specific case is prove that there is a general rule.

The general rule being that owning land for foreigners is not possible.

There is a rule that when you invest 40 million baht then you can have ownership of 1 rai for a residence. This is also very unlikely and has to be approved by several departments. I don't know of anyone getting that, but to be honest i am not familiar with the rich and famous.

So for the rest of us, the law remains very simple and that is you can not own land.

Which is actually not such a bad thing as it is also as good as impossible to get Thai citizenship or permanent residency.

It just keeps you reminded that you should not buy anything permanent with most of your money as you permission to stay is not permanent. Always have a fallback.

[kamalabob2]

A standard Usufruct is very inexpensive, yet only in Thai at the local government office. A usufruct to your specific needs is easy for a good lawyer to prepare. No challenges to getting a usufruct completed and accepted in our small amphur in Buriram Province. Real professional wills in Thai and your native language are worth the modest expense. Notarized was no challenge for the American lawyer I hired in 2006 in Bangkok.  I did a lame 3 year lease with some "stamps" originally on a parcel of land. A real registered lease had to be at a realistic rental amount, and taxes paid on both ends. I see the virtue in the usufruct for residential house situations.  If you check what the taxes would be on a realistic rental figure you might understand why I selected to go the usufruct route. 

[sandemara]

On 8/8/2017 at 3:30 PM, tharae said:

What happens if both parents are deceased and the deceased has no children?

Frankly, who is there to care?

[billd766]

On 08/08/2017 at 0:34 PM, happylarry said:

To start with you need to get your wife to make a legal will leaving it to you. You are then the legal owner but only for one year!!! You have a year to either sell the property or to put it into another Thai persons name. 

Also you need to get your wife to sign a usufruct to you on the property. This allows you to stay in the property for life if you so require, so that when you sign over the title deeds to another Thai name (ie a relative) there is no way they can then force you out against your will.

If there is no will then the legal spouse will inherit 50% and the other 50% is split between the parents of the deceased and the children of the deceased.

Hope this helps.

HL

 

Before you start signing anything try reading Thai Civil and Commercial Code Part 3 Section 1629 here.

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-code-part-3.html#1629

 

DIVISION INTO PORTIONS BETWEEN SEVERAL CLASSES AND DEGREES OF STATUTORY HEIRS

Section 1629. There are only six classes of statutory heir;and subject to the provisions of Section 1630 paragraph 2, each class is entitled to inherit in the following order:

1) descendants;
2) parents;
3) brothers and sisters of full blood;
4) brothers and sisters of half blood;
5) grandparents;
6) uncles and aunts.

The surviving spouse is also a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635.

 

Section 1630. So long as there is any heir surviving or represented in a class as specified in Section 1629 as the case may be, the heir of the lower class has no right at all to the estate of the deceased.
However, the forgoing paragraph doe not apply in the particular case where there is any descendant surviving or represented as the case may be, and also the parents or one of them are still surviving; in such case each parent is entitled to the same share as an heir in the degree of children.

 

Section 1631. As between descendants of different degrees, only the children of the de cujus who are entitled to inherit. The descendants of lower degree may receive the inheritance only by the right of representation.

 

Now you have to dig deeper. It is there but I think that you need to Google the Thai Civil and Commercial code  and download it from the Government website rather than relying on what somebody says on any website.

 

When you have read it and understood it, then talk to your wife about what to do.

 

It is a little easier for me as we have a 13 year old son and my wife and has left the house and land that is in her name to him. I am named as his father and if she dies before me I am also named as his legal guardian. This would help in court IF my wife's family got greedy. I doubt that they would do this but you never know.

 

[Dogmatix]

On 8/8/2017 at 8:29 PM, henry15 said:

If the property is less than 1 rai, you can  become the owner of the property, with full ownershiprights, just like  Thai national. So you don't have  sell the propertu within a year. You can even putt it in your will and let inherrent by foreigner. But he must sell within a year

What your wife have to do , is making a last will were she disown the 6 statutaire heirs,  Needles to say you need a good lawyer, who  is willing to go all the way. In the inherritance were I wass the appointed manager of the estate confirmed  by the Civil Court, the procedure to.change  the Ghanotte took about 6 months. This was rather quick due the fact, that none of the 6 statutary heirs  opposed the will.

Its was a test case  and the first succesfull case in Thailand. Total legal amd procedure costs about 350 000 Baht. Not included the fee of the manager of the estate, because I did it for free, because it wass a friend.

 

Although the post is rather unclear it does raise some interesting points.  The first one is what appears to be a reference to Section 93 of the still current 1954 Land Code. 

 

"Section 93 The Minister shall permit the inheritance of land by an alien who is the lawful heir, but such acquisition when added to that which s already held may not exceed the amount which may be held under Section 87."

 

At a superficial glance this might seem the perfect solution.  However, if you look at Section 87 which is referenced in the clause and sets out the maximum amount of land that foreigners may hold for various purposes, you will see that this is all contingent on international treaties.  Unfortunately the last of these treaties expired in the early 1970s. Therefore, there is no longer any way that a foreigner can inherit land and there would be no point in wasting time and money applying to the minister for permission for something he is not empowered to grant.

 

What you can and should do and it is also alluded to here, is to have the Thai spouse draw up a will that that clearly leaves the property, or rather the proceeds form selling it, to you to the exclusion of her statutory heirs.  In this case, title in the property does not  pass to the foreign heir and it does not matter if it is more than 1 rai, since the treaties that specified that limit are now defunct.  What happens, if you do this right, is that the title in the property passes to the estate of the deceased and the estate of a deceased Thai person is a Thai legal entity, so no problem with land ownership, regardless of the nationality of the heirs.   In the case of a foreign heir or heirs, the estate has, as you say, 12 months to dispose of the property to a Thai person or entity. 

     

It might be worth establishing a usufruct, if your land office will do it.  If you can plan ahead it is better to do a usufruct before marriage because any contract between man and wife can rendered null and void later, according the Civil & Commercial Code.  The value of a usufruct agreement might be that it could help dissuade statutory heirs from attempting to take possession of the property.  It is unlikely that the Land Dept would agree to a transfer, if there is an outstanding usufruct agreement without the permission of the usufructee to dissolve the agreement.  In my experience of trying to transfer land with a usufruct agreeement intact, the land office refused to do it and insisted on its cancellation first, even though there is nothing in the Land Code that prevents this.

If you want to remain living in the property, you will have to find a Thai nominee to transfer it to.  Since you will probably have had to dissolve your usufruct, if you had one, before the transfer, you can then attempt to set up a new one with the new owner.   

[Dogmatix]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:40 PM, Khun Jean said:

It is not possible.

'The exception that proves the rule' is just to say that a very specific case is prove that there is a general rule.

The general rule being that owning land for foreigners is not possible.

There is a rule that when you invest 40 million baht then you can have ownership of 1 rai for a residence. This is also very unlikely and has to be approved by several departments. I don't know of anyone getting that, but to be honest i am not familiar with the rich and famous.

So for the rest of us, the law remains very simple and that is you can not own land.

Which is actually not such a bad thing as it is also as good as impossible to get Thai citizenship or permanent residency.

It just keeps you reminded that you should not buy anything permanent with most of your money as you permission to stay is not permanent. Always have a fallback.

 

Here we have a reference to another section of the Land  Code that ostensibly permits land ownership by foreigners up to 1 rai for residential purposes in certain specified zones in Bangkok and Pattaya.  This is an amendment to the Land Code made under the Chuan government in 1999.  Land Code Amendment Act 1999 En.doc   Unfortunately it is not applicable in the case of inheritance, since it requires adherence to very strict conditions and the permission to purchase the land must be obtained from the minister in advance.  The intention of the amendment was to boost the economy and real estate sector that was devastated by the 1997 financial crisis, so property that has already been purchased would not come close to fulfilling the intention.  In order to qualify to buy the land a foreigner must invest at least 40 million baht, excluding the cost of the property, in a business deemed beneficial to the economy.   The bureaucrats at the Interior Ministry deliberately dragged their heels for 7 years drafting the ministerial regulations needed to implement this amendment which scotched any deals that foreign investors prepared at the passing of the amendment.  

 

At any rate it is not practical to try and buy a piece of land when you have to hold the purchase on ice for at least a year awaiting approval against an extremely complex set of ministerial regulations that gives ample opportunity for the bureaucrats to stall or reject your application.  I have talked to foreigners with decades of experience working in the large estate agent firms and all of them say this a totally redundant provision and none of heard of any foreign investor successfully using it.  

 

There are many foreigners, including foreign lawyers, who superficially read Thai laws and think they have dome up with something without doing adequate research into the implementation of them, frequently being unable to read enough Thai to do the research anyway.  I have seen this approach end in tears in a Thai court room when a foreign client believed a foreign lawyer who was illegally practising law in Thailand.                

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Dogmatix