Wife's Thai I.D. wrong name......after 29 years???

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, TGIR said:

.until we get to immigration where she apparently is still required to submit with her application for extension of my retirement Visa, both her Blue book and her Thai I.D. card.  

I don't know why you think she has to apply for an extension. She is Thai citizens and can stay here for infinity if she enters the country on her Thai passport.

There are many Thai wives with dual nationalities. They leave and enter here on their Thai passport and use their other passport to enter and leave the other country they have a nationality for.

[lopburi3]

3 minutes ago, TGIR said:

After we were Married (in Bangkok, in Thai) our Attorney suggested she file an application for a Fiance Visa to the U.S.  He explained, rightly so, that applying for a Visa as my wife would mean a long wait.  Applying for a Fiance Visa took only two months and she emigrated to the U.S. having 90 days to get married or go home.  It worked perfectly for us and no-one in the U.S. really gives a crap where we were married and whether or not we also got married in Thailand.  She wanted to be a U.S. citizen, so she took her tests, waited the two years to be naturalized and is now officially a real live American.......until we get to immigration where she apparently is still required to submit with her application for extension of my retirement Visa, both her Blue book and her Thai I.D. card.  

 

I'm happy to know many of you are so well versed in Thai law, and available for answers to a lot of questions raised by TV members, but everyone's experience with immigration is different as we all know.  I've related the facts as I know them and it won't do any good for us to keep trying to litigate what's happened in the past, or why we should do this or that.  We follow the rules as instructed by Thai immigration officials.   

Very bad advice from that attorney if you were already married I fear.  Perhaps best to end my posting here.

[flexomike]

19 hours ago, TGIR said:

I just checked with her and this will have nothing to do with the blue book.  On her Thai I.D. card her name is N.... P....Duangsawang, her maiden name.  On her U.S. Passport her name is N....P... Che....., her married name. Her blue book remains in her maiden name, at an address where we no longer live, but cannot be changed until we sell that particular property.  That was why the I.D. card became an issue....her blue book didn't match her  passport and they then required her Thai ID to verify she was she.

 

She originally chose this route to avoid problems when purchasing property years ago.   Back then foreign married women weren't  allowed to buy more than one piece of property.   Apparently about 10 years ago that rule was relaxed and is longer a factor. She just told me they wanted her to change last year and she didn't bother to do it because of the hassle;  she does have to have a consultation with both Embassies to get her name changed in their records......since technically, I think, Thailand doesn't allow multiple citizenship.  She always refers to herself in these situations as a "former Thai citizen".

 

We have several arguments many years ago when she went through changing her name after we got married and I kept appealing to her to just change the name everywhere to avoid these kinds of problems.....she was still carrying a Thai passport at the time, not to use, just for a back-up I suppose.   I am reserving my right to say "I told you so" in the interest of my continuing good health.

 

 

She can have dual citizenship, my wife has both Thai and US, married in the US, living in Thailand now, she did do a name change, but I think the paperwork went through the Los Angelos Thai embassy, she had no problem getting her ID changed in Bangkok, but that was where her housebook was, had to take a sister with as a witness, very easy

[BEVUP]

36 minutes ago, TGIR said:

<removed> NO, we did not get a divorce and we are legally married in both Thailand and America.....have been since 1988.   I don't know what you're talking about on the retirement issue.  She is my dependent and therefor has to submit the same paperwork to immigration I do.  She is carrying an American passport and, as I mentioned, considers herself to be An American citizen, and "former" Thai citizen.  Perhaps that's why the big deal with changing her I.D. card.

No she is not your Dependent, she is your wife who is a Thai Citz holding all the Thai Citz documents that says she is Thai

Other wise she would be doing the same as you & even more so if she entered Thai with an American PP

[TGIR]

Just now, lopburi3 said:

Very bad advice from that attorney if you were already married I fear.  Perhaps best to end my posting here.

Very bad advice in your opinion, very good advice in mine.   To clarify, she chose to travel using her American passport.  Having done that, she is included in my Retirement Visa as a dependent and is obligated to file the paperwork as instructed by the immigration office.

[flexomike]

1 minute ago, BEVUP said:

No she is not your Dependent, she is your wife who is a Thai Citz holding all the Thai Citz documents that says she is Thai

Other wise she would be doing the same as you & even more so if she entered Thai with an American PP

 

1 minute ago, BEVUP said:

No she is not your Dependent, she is your wife who is a Thai Citz holding all the Thai Citz documents that says she is Thai

Other wise she would be doing the same as you & even more so if she entered Thai with an American PP

She does not have to do the same paperwork that you do. Unless she entered on a foreign passport, my wife enters on her Thai passport and leaves on her Thai passport. Enters the  US on her US passport

 

[007 RED]

I have to say that I’m somewhat puzzled as to why the IO is questioning the difference of your wife’s name on her Thai ID card.  You are extending your permission to stay based upon retirement and as such there are no requirement for your wife to produce either her ID, passport or house book.

 

I suspect that your good lady in trying to be efficient has provided more information in your renewal pack that is actually required, for example, copies of her ID card and passport etc., and that the IO has by some unlucky coincidence picked up the discrepancy.  That said, it should not prevent the IO from renewing you permission to stay based upon retirement.

 

I know when my wife and I go to extend my permission to stay on the grounds of retirement (which we did a couple of days ago) we always have a pack of additional documents held in reserve such as copies of her ID card, house book marriage certificated etc., just in case the IO asks for some additional info.  Thankfully in the past 6 years, I’ve never been asked for anything other than what is stipulated for my class of extension.  

 

The unfortunate situation is that we have to bow to the whim of the IO as they hold all the cards.  When they say jump… it’s not a good idea to ask how high… you just jump and hope that it’s high enough.

 

Hope you manage to get the situation sorted without too much more heart ache.   Good luck.

[swissbie]

19 hours ago, TGIR said:

I just checked with her and this will have nothing to do with the blue book.  On her Thai I.D. card her name is N.... P....Duangsawang, her maiden name.  On her U.S. Passport her name is N....P... Che....., her married name. Her blue book remains in her maiden name, at an address where we no longer live, but cannot be changed until we sell that particular property.  That was why the I.D. card became an issue....her blue book didn't match her  passport and they then required her Thai ID to verify she was she.

 

She originally chose this route to avoid problems when purchasing property years ago.   Back then foreign married women weren't  allowed to buy more than one piece of property.   Apparently about 10 years ago that rule was relaxed and is longer a factor. She just told me they wanted her to change last year and she didn't bother to do it because of the hassle;  she does have to have a consultation with both Embassies to get her name changed in their records......since technically, I think, Thailand doesn't allow multiple citizenship.  She always refers to herself in these situations as a "former Thai citizen".

 

We have several arguments many years ago when she went through changing her name after we got married and I kept appealing to her to just change the name everywhere to avoid these kinds of problems.....she was still carrying a Thai passport at the time, not to use, just for a back-up I suppose.   I am reserving my right to say "I told you so" in the interest of my continuing good health.

 

 

Ok, most points have been discussed already, so to one thing, that has not yet been mentioned. You, resp. your wife, don't have to sell the house/property to be able to change the adress to an other blue book. She can keep the blue book of the old property without anybody beeing registered in it.

[ubonjoe]

22 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I have to say that I’m somewhat puzzled as to why the IO is questioning the difference of your wife’s name on her Thai ID card.  You are extending your permission to stay based upon retirement and as such there are no requirement for your wife to produce either her ID, passport or house book.

You need to go back and read the post where he states she is getting an extension as his dependent because she used her US passport to enter the country.

I think the problem is that her US passport has her married name and her Thai ID card has her maiden name.

[Tanoshi]

23 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I have to say that I’m somewhat puzzled as to why the IO is questioning the difference of your wife’s name on her Thai ID card.  You are extending your permission to stay based upon retirement and as such there are no requirement for your wife to produce either her ID, passport or house book.

Because his wife entered on her US passport, so she is registered on Immigrations database as having entered as a foreigner.

The OP obtains an annual extension based on retirement and his wife as his dependant.

 

The scenario by entering on the wrong passport and being a Thai citizen but being treated as a foreigner and subject to Immigration control has been raised in previous topics, of the same situations.

 

In theory, it's a problem that should be easily resolved, in practice it isn't.

[TGIR]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You need to go back and read the post where he states she is getting an extension as his dependent because she used her US passport to enter the country.

I think the problem is that her US passport has her married name and her Thai ID card has her maiden name.

 

EGGactly, as noted on both pages 1 and 2.   

[Tanoshi]

10 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You need to go back and read the post where he states she is getting an extension as his dependent because she used her US passport to enter the country.

I think the problem is that her US passport has her married name and her Thai ID card has her maiden name.

The problem is that she is a Thai national, being treated as a foreign national.

Sort that issue out and the rest doesn't matter.

[BritTim]

My reading of this thread is that, while you are both applying for extensions at the same time, your application for a retirement extension is a complete red herring. Your wife is applying for an extension as a "former Thai citizen". Presumably this because she at some point voluntarily relinquished her Thai nationality. (I am not sure if she can actually do that as someone born in Thailand to Thai parents, but immigration is presumably operating on that basis. The problem, as I see it, is that she cannot prove based on the documentation she is providing that she is a former Thai citizen. She is trying to get an extension in her US passport under one name, and showing the is card of someone with a different name as proof of her former Thai nationality.

 

My guess is that this is easily solved by reclaiming her Thai nationality which most likely has never been legally renounced. Then, leave Thailand, get a Thai passport at an embassy abroad, and reenter using the Thai passport.

[ubonjoe]

Just now, BritTim said:

My guess is that this is easily solved by reclaiming her Thai nationality which most likely has never been legally renounced. Then, leave Thailand, get a Thai passport at an embassy abroad, and reenter using the Thai passport.

She is still a Thai national since she has a valid Thai ID card. All she has to do is go to a passport office and get a new passport.

Then fly out to a neighboring country using the US passport to depart the country and then re-enter using her Thai passport.

[Tanoshi]

Just now, BritTim said:

My reading of this thread is that, while you are both applying for extensions at the same time, your application for a retirement extension is a complete red herring. Your wife is applying for an extension as a "former Thai citizen". Presumably this because she at some point voluntarily relinquished her Thai nationality. (I am not sure if she can actually do that as someone born in Thailand to Thai parents, but immigration is presumably operating on that basis. The problem, as I see it, is that she cannot prove based on the documentation she is providing that she is a former Thai citizen. She is trying to get an extension in her US passport under one name, and showing the is card of someone with a different name as proof of her former Thai nationality.

 

My guess is that this is easily solved by reclaiming her Thai nationality which most likely has never been legally renounced. Then, leave Thailand, get a Thai passport at an embassy abroad, and reenter using the Thai passport.

She didn't relinquish anything.

 

She entered Thailand on a US passport, presumably with a Visa and for all intents and purposes is now recorded on Immigrations database as a foreigner entering the Country and subject to Immigration control.

Hence when the OP gets his annual extension, she gets the same based on being his dependant.

[Tanoshi]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

She is still a Thai national since she has a valid Thai ID card. All she has to do is go to a passport office and get a new passport.

Then fly out to a neighboring country using the US passport to depart the country and then re-enter using her Thai passport.

In theory Yes, in practice, No.

 

When the Thai tries to re-enter using their Thai ID, they have no exit stamp, or entry card.

The puzzled IO asks how they managed to leave the Country.

Foreign passport, with exit stamp.

The IO insists that since they left on a foreign passport and there is no record of departing as a Thai, the same passport must be used to re-enter, and so the circle continues.

[ICECOOL]

13 hours ago, OJAS said:

In which case he'd better brace himself for having to surmount formidable hurdles in communicating with them since immigration officers' grasp of the English language tends to be minimal (at best) or completely non-existent (at worst) in my experience. That is one of the reasons why I always get my wife to accompany me to my local office at retirement extension of stay time.

While my gf accompanies me to do retirement extension at HH I do the lot. She sits outside usually. But it seems different everywhere.

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

In theory Yes, in practice, No.

 

When the Thai tries to re-enter using their Thai ID, they have no exit stamp, or entry card.

The puzzled IO asks how they managed to leave the Country.

Foreign passport, with exit stamp.

The IO insists that since they left on a foreign passport and there is no record of departing as a Thai, the same passport must be used to re-enter, and so the circle continues.

Not really correct. The officer cannot force a Thai to use the other passport.

With the auto gates for Thai's now it even less of problem. Just fill out a new card and use it.

[Tanoshi]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

Not really correct. The officer cannot force a Thai to use the other passport.

With the auto gates for Thai's now it even less of problem. Just fill out new entry card and use it.

The auto entry gates won't let you enter on a Thai passport, if you didn't exit on that passport.

The bio metric information doesn't match that recorded of a Thai exiting the Country.

 

There is no matching departure card, if you just complete a new arrival card portion.

The barcode on the arrival portion can't match with a record of departure on the same barcode.

 

You will be referred to an IO for entry, in the interest of national security and to confirm your ID.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The auto entry gates won't let you enter on a Thai passport, if you didn't exit on that passport.

The bio metric information doesn't match that recorded of a Thai exiting the Country.

 

There is no matching departure card, if you just complete a new arrival card portion.

The barcode on the arrival portion can't match with a record of departure on the same barcode.

 

You will be referred to an IO for entry, in the interest of national security and to confirm your ID.

Who told you that nonsense.

The only Thais that are denied entry using a valid Thai passport are ones that just accept the BS from an immigration officer.

[abrahamzvi]

21 hours ago, tonray said:

Isn't the passport enough, why even present a Thai ID? 

I assume the marriage has been registered in Thailand and therefore the married surname had to be changed. In the old days when Thai ladies married to foreigners were not able to buy land in Thailand (this law has been changed in the early 2000), many such ladies had their name changed in their passports if they lived abroad, but left their maiden name on their ID,

to enable them to purchase land in Thailand when they were there. Whilst registering their marriage abroad and having the Thai Embassies/Consulates change their names on the Passports, their IDs were not touched. This practice, which was known to the Thai embassies/consultes, is not practiced, or allowed now, as there is no reason for this.

[BEVUP]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You need to go back and read the post where he states she is getting an extension as his dependent because she used her US passport to enter the country.

I think the problem is that her US passport has her married name and her Thai ID card has her maiden name.

Your right Joe & as I mentioned If she entered on the American PP would be another matter ( I think OP should of stated that straight up) & now all of a sudden she encountered a IO on a bad day (maybe pay back for not going with the Thai citz.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Who told you that nonsense.

The only Thais that are denied entry using a valid Thai passport are ones that just accept the BS from an immigration officer.

I agree totally with your sentiments and opinion.

 

The fact remains that most Thais are clueless regarding their own laws and even less reluctant to lose 'face' in front of an official they regard as a superior, and (supposedly) more knowledgeable than themselves. They don't like confrontation especially in public areas.

 

A foreigner may demand to see a superior and make a stand, but very few Thais will.

[tryasimight]

9 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

Very bad advice from that attorney if you were already married I fear.  Perhaps best to end my posting here.

If he thinks he's having problems now.....he wants to hope the US never discover the fraudulent fiancee visa and the act of bigamy that occurred in that country. Thailand immigration will be the least of his worries.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, tryasimight said:

If he thinks he's having problems now.....he wants to hope the US never discover the fraudulent fiancee visa and the act of bigamy that occurred in that country. Thailand immigration will be the least of his worries.

While the fraudulent fiance visa might indeed be an issue, I do not think you can be accused of bigamy over executing a superfluous marriage to someone you are already married to.

[Maestro]

On 10/08/2017 at 9:15 AM, TGIR said:

...we went to the Immigration office for our 12th annual O-Retirement extension.  All the paperwork was prepared and in order, as it has been every year... "They know we're married and it's clear on our paperwork that the I.D. card and her passport have different names (one before marriage, one after)"...

 

 

This is the first time I hear that a foreigner who happens to have a Thai wife and applies for a one-year extension of stay for the reason of retirement (retirement extension) must be accompanied by his wife and his wife must present her Thai ID card and her passport.

 

It is also the first time I hear that a Thai woman whose foreign husband applies for a retirement extension must be in possession of a passport.

 

What immigration office is it that has these weird requirements for the retirement extension?

 

P.S. I see from this later post of yours that your wife has chosen to live with you in Thailand as a US national and apparently applies for her own one-year extensions of stay as your dependent under clause 2.20 of Police Order 327/2557. If this is the case, I cannot understand why she has to show her Thai ID card for her application for extension, as it is not a requirement for a US national to have a Thai ID card. She has created a big confusion by using documents relating to both her nationalities for her application.

 

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

... I cannot understand why she has to show her Thai ID card for her application for extension, as it is not a requirement for a US national to have a Thai ID card. She has created a big confusion by using documents relating to both her nationalities for her application.

I think the issue is that she is applying for an extension of stay as a returning Thai citizen. To do this, she needs to prove that she is an existing (or former) Thai citizen. Her US passport does not demonstrate this.

[TGIR]

16 hours ago, tryasimight said:

If he thinks he's having problems now.....he wants to hope the US never discover the fraudulent fiancee visa and the act of bigamy that occurred in that country. Thailand immigration will be the least of his worries.

 

tryasimight, you might just want to tune down the rhetoric a bit.  I did not commit an act of bigamy, which per the dictionary is the act of going through a marriage ceremony while already married to another person.  No did I commit a fraudulent act in obtaining the Fiance Visa.  She wasn't married lawfully in the United States at the time of application for the Visa.  If you want to argue about something that happened three decades ago I guess that's your problem, not mine.

 

We obtained the Fiance Visa at the recommendation of a qualified Thai attorney, and I doubt the American government would give a crap if we were married in Bangkok or Kathmandu.  We followed the rules of the Fiance Visa to the letter.  The rules are that you have 90 days to marry or return to your home country.

 

My wife was a thirty one year old single woman who had never been married.  It isn't likely that I would have received the family's approval to take her to America without going through a proper Thai marriage first.  It could have taken up to two years to submit ourselves to the process of bringing a new Thai bride to the U.S. according to our attorney.  I doubt he would have suggested the route we took if it were illegal.  Why would a practicing attorney do that?  A little legal sleight of hand is not a criminal offense.

[tryasimight]

4 minutes ago, TGIR said:

 

tryasimight, you might just want to tune down the rhetoric a bit.  I did not commit an act of bigamy, which per the dictionary is the act of going through a marriage ceremony while already married to another person.  No did I commit a fraudulent act in obtaining the Fiance Visa.  She wasn't married lawfully in the United States at the time of application for the Visa.  If you want to argue about something that happened three decades ago I guess that's your problem, not mine.

 

We obtained the Fiance Visa at the recommendation of a qualified Thai attorney, and I doubt the American government would give a crap if we were married in Bangkok or Kathmandu.  We followed the rules of the Fiance Visa to the letter.  The rules are that you have 90 days to marry or return to your home country.

 

My wife was a thirty one year old single woman who had never been married.  It isn't likely that I would have received the family's approval to take her to America without going through a proper Thai marriage first.  It could have taken up to two years to submit ourselves to the process of bringing a new Thai bride to the U.S. according to our attorney.  I doubt he would have suggested the route we took if it were illegal.  Why would a practicing attorney do that?  A little legal sleight of hand is not a criminal offense.

I have no argument either way, merely pointing out that if you were in fact legally married and thus obtained a fiancee visa fraudulently then everything done after that is null and void.

Did you get married at the Amphur or just a ceremonial village event? If it was a village event only then you were never married and all is good.

 

Anyway....keep your happy thoughts and good luck.

 

 

BTW my visa agent insisted I DO NOT get married before trying to bring my lady to Australia for the same reasons as you mention. And we did not. She went there and we got married just the once to keep it legal.

[abrahamzvi]

On 8/10/2017 at 3:24 PM, ubonjoe said:

I cannot see what the problem with immigration is. It is perfectly legal for her to keep her maiden name after marriage.

She does not need to do anything at the US embassy since her passport is in her married name. There are no Thai embassies here in the country.

All she has to do is go the Amphoe where her house book registry is for and apply for a name change. 

The law on owning property was changed in 1998 or 1999 after the constitution of 1997 went into effect.

You are right. However, before the Amphue changes the name the marriage has to be registered with any Amphue in Thailand. It is a rule that Thais married abroad have to register their marriage in Thailand, even if both are Thais.