Trump loudly insists both sides to blame for Virginia violence

[boomerangutang]

44 minutes ago, WaywardWind said:

As much as I detest Trump, I somewhat hope that we are able to muddle trough to 2020 (without getting nuked) rather than have him removed by impeachment, which would leave us with Pence, who is equally as dangerous, just not given to outrageous conduct and statements.

Agree that Pence is Yuksville, but not a lit cannon rolling aimlessly on an oil slick sloop deck, like Trump.

[Bluespunk]

3 hours ago, webfact said:

 

"Thank you President Trump for your honesty & courage to tell the truth about #Charlottesville & condemn the leftist terrorists in BLM/Antifa," former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke wrote on Twitter after Trump's latest remarks, referring to Black Lives Matter (BLM) and anti-facists.

Says it all really. 

 

Trump, the grand poobah of racist hate. 

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

I acknowledge that there are many screwball rednecks hugging their guns and itching for confrontation, I nevertheless am in favor of keeping the Lee statue in the park.  The history he was involved in was 160 years ago.  It happened.  He was a general for the side that lost.   All around the world there are statues of army heads who, if they're looked at critically, could be seen as out-of-step with current social norms.

 

If youngsters today study history, they may be more likely to avoid the mistakes of past generations.  If unpleasant history is erased, ....that's another story.  Trump should hone-up on history, and he might then be less of a hot-head re; N.Korea stand off.

 

Incidentally, when Trump gets dropkicked out of the WH, those same rednecks will mobilize, and it will make Charlottesville look tame in comparison.

Then think of the history of why these statues are in public squares around the south. The majority of human beings in Charlottesville during Civil War times were slaves. Robert E Lee never stepped foot in Charlottesville. (The statues were put there 60 years after the war by White supremacist local government, to celebrate Jim Crow segregation and terrorize blacks).Most of the current local residents of Charlottesville don't want the statues. To say you support "keeping the Lee statue in the park" in 2017, puts your thinking inline with a few ignorant people clinging to a past that never existed and open racists and Nazis.

[Golgota]

1 hour ago, FreddieRoyle said:

All I saw is a heavily armed group of liberals spoiling for a fight (without neccessary permits) and coming off worse, then screaming blue murder about it all. They should take stock of the situation, and make an effort to protest peacefully and legally in the future. It's not as if they don't have a habit of violent behavior - just look at the Berkeley riots against free speech where they assaulted and burnt anything and everything in their path.

 Trump is exactly right, all sides here must share the blame. Not sure why this is such a difficult message for some to swallow?

Maybe because one side has sawastikas all over, nazi symbols and racist speech...when you propagate hate based on racial supremacy, biggotery and other things which should stay buried in the pit of shame it is hard to swallow that the POTUS can't make a distinction between them and the people wanting these hate speech to be stopped.

 

By the way 50% to 75% of all terrorists activity in USA are from racist/alt-right/kkk affiliates:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/domestic-terrorism-white-supremacists-islamist-extremists_us_594c46e4e4b0da2c731a84df

[irwinfc]

both sides ARE indeed to blame. but just like a script engraved in stone centuries ago, you'll only hear the liberals complain about it.

[mtls2005]

1 minute ago, irwinfc said:

both sides ARE indeed to blame.

 

Sounds like a Trump quote about WW2.

 

 

[Pinot]

1 hour ago, FreddieRoyle said:

All I saw is a heavily armed group of liberals spoiling for a fight (without neccessary permits) and coming off worse, then screaming blue murder about it all. They should take stock of the situation, and make an effort to protest peacefully and legally in the future. It's not as if they don't have a habit of violent behavior - just look at the Berkeley riots against free speech where they assaulted and burnt anything and everything in their path.

 Trump is exactly right, all sides here must share the blame. Not sure why this is such a difficult message for some to swallow?

Yeah, that's all you guys ever see. 

 

You and Trump are defending Nazis. Tsk...

[phantomfiddler]

Everyone should watch the truly excellent unbiased Burns documentary "The Civil War", after which they would surely realize that Lee was an extremely important part of American history and should never be brushed under the carpet. The liberals have degenerated into a bunch of narrow minded thugs insisting everything must be their way, and because of this I believe Trump is correct in what he says.

[iReason]

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

All I saw is a heavily armed group of liberals spoiling for a fight (without neccessary permits) and coming off worse, then screaming blue murder about it all. They should take stock of the situation, and make an effort to protest peacefully and legally in the future.

It's not as if they don't have a habit of violent behavior - just look at the Berkeley riots against free speech where they assaulted and burnt anything and everything in their path.

 

"All I saw is a heavily armed group"

"where they assaulted and burnt anything and everything in their path."

 

Continuing to just make stuff up are ya?

Hysterical looniness...

[iReason]

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

This was covered to death in the other thread, with photos showing more liberal baseball bats than a day at Wrigley field

 

"with photos showing more liberal baseball bats than a day at Wrigley field"

 

From just making stuff up, to outright LYING.

 

Bombastic gibberish.

[boomerangutang]

8 minutes ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

Then think of the history of why these statues are in public squares around the south. The majority of human beings in Charlottesville during Civil War times were slaves. Robert E Lee never stepped foot in Charlottesville. (The statues were put there 60 years after the war by White supremacist local government, to celebrate Jim Crow segregation and terrorize blacks).Most of the current local residents of Charlottesville don't want the statues. To say you support "keeping the Lee statue in the park" in 2017, puts your thinking inline with a few ignorant people clinging to a past that never existed and open racists and Nazis.

Do you have data supporting your assertion "Most of the current local residents of Charlottesville don't want the statues."

 

Why plural?  Are there other statues in contention?  It doesn't matter whether Lee was in Charlottesville 160 years ago.  George Washington never went to the west coast of N.America, yet there's a large state there named after him.   

 

Note, there's a statue of General Douglas Haig in London.  He commanded British forces in Europe during WWII.  He is blamed for contributing to the deaths of a half million (and grave injuries to 2 million) young British men - due to his foolish belief that charging 300 meters at German machine guns in knee-deep mud would win the war.  Should his statue be taken down?  

[Pinot]

10 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

Everyone should watch the truly excellent unbiased Burns documentary "The Civil War", after which they would surely realize that Lee was an extremely important part of American history and should never be brushed under the carpet. The liberals have degenerated into a bunch of narrow minded thugs insisting everything must be their way, and because of this I believe Trump is correct in what he says.

The south went to war to defend slavery. If it was up to the alt-right, we'd still have it. 

 

Slavery was a terrible, inhuman part of our history and there is NOTHING about the confederacy that should be celebrated. These statues aggrandize this dark period and remind everyone just how cruel a human being can be. 

 

 If you are fighting to prevent a statue of Robert E. Lee from being taken down, you are, in fact, a white supremacist. 

 

I feel sorry for all you misguided racists. The alt-right is an American embarrassment that speaks to the world.  You and the rest of your ilk should be ashamed of yourselves. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Pinot

[Rancid]

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

All I saw is a heavily armed group of liberals spoiling for a fight (without neccessary permits) and coming off worse, then screaming blue murder about it all. They should take stock of the situation, and make an effort to protest peacefully and legally in the future. It's not as if they don't have a habit of violent behavior - just look at the Berkeley riots against free speech where they assaulted and burnt anything and everything in their path.

 Trump is exactly right, all sides here must share the blame. Not sure why this is such a difficult message for some to swallow?

Pretty much how I saw it. However the liberal PC media use it to claim Trump is a racist. Racism is ugly, but so is violently enforcing PC, one objectionable and the other Orwellian. Seems one side of totalitarianism always gets a free pass.

[boomerangutang]

14 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

Everyone should watch the truly excellent unbiased Burns documentary "The Civil War", after which they would surely realize that Lee was an extremely important part of American history and should never be brushed under the carpet. The liberals have degenerated into a bunch of narrow minded thugs insisting everything must be their way, and because of this I believe Trump is correct in what he says.

I agree in the first part of your paragraph, but not the 2nd half.

[Pinot]

We knew we were in scary territory with Trump. We are now living the beginning of a dystopian TV series. It's up to us to make sure it's canceled before it gets renewed for another season.

 

Anyone who can watch that press conference and not think that we are being led by a deranged, out-of-control racist is someone who will never be convinced about Trump's unfitness for office.

 

 

[Opl]

13 minutes ago, Pinot said:

We knew we were in scary territory with Trump. We are now living the beginning of a dystopian TV series. It's up to us to make sure it's canceled before it gets renewed for another season.

 

Anyone who can watch that press conference and not think that we are being led by a deranged, out-of-control racist is someone who will never be convinced about Trump's unfitness for office.

 

 

Trump is working at his reelection since day 1 in office : all he says is easy to understand and remember  and then repeat - even for very young children - that's how Trump enlarges his supportive base.    

Trump does not care answering questions, or even adressing issues , he just delivers talking points he wants his supporters can repeat as such - whatever the context. And it works. "Believe me" 

Trump is a Master at articulating anger .. and now hate. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Opl

[boomerangutang]

6 minutes ago, Pinot said:

The south went to war to defend slavery. If it was up to the alt-right, we'd still have it. 

Slavery was a terrible, inhuman part of our history and there is NOTHING about the confederacy that should be celebrated. These statues aggrandize this dark period and remind everyone just how cruel a human being can be. 

 If you are fighting to prevent a statue of Robert E. Lee from being taken down, you are, in fact, a white supremacist. 

I feel sorry for all you misguided racists. The alt-right is an American embarrassment that speaks to the world.  You and the rest of your ilk should be ashamed of yourselves. 

                   I think slavery was a lesser part of the reason the South rose up against the North.  I spoke with an 80-something yr old American woman the other day, and she opined that the war revolved mostly around economic issues.   Slavery was, among other things, economic in the sense that a slave was property owned by the man of the house (much like a wife and kids are, today).   

 

                    The south had a lot of ag products (cotton, tobacco, etc) and didn't want the North controlling the economics of it.   Yes, slavery was an issue, but even if the South had won (which it almost did), slavery would have been soon abolished, as it was everywhere else in the world, before and soon after the mid 19th century.

 

                       I just watched a special about how the Canadian Maple syrup industry is controlled by a small group of bureaucrats in Quebec.   I didn't think about it until just now, but it's somewhat similar to the situation which fueled the Civil War:    A group of bureaucrats (the North) controlling prices and commerce of products from the southern states. 

 

 

[phantomfiddler]

1 minute ago, Pinot said:

The south went to war to defend slavery. If it was up to the alt-right, we'd still have it. 

 

Slavery was a terrible, inhuman part of our history and there is NOTHING about the confederacy that should be celebrated. These statues aggrandize this dark period and remind everyone just how cruel a human being can be. 

 

I feel sorry for all you misguided racists. The alt-right is an American embarrassment that speaks to the world.  You and the rest of your ilk should be ashamed of yourselves. 

Everyone with a mind fully realizes that slavery was a truly terrible thing and had no place in a civilized world, but we have moved on since then, at least the more sensible of us have. How can you possibly call me a racist when you don,t even know me ? I have friends of all colours and take everyone as they come. This is about the attempts by the incredibly narrow minded liberals (read radicals) to erase history. We should all be glad that the confederacy failed, but it DID happen and was an extremely significant part of American history. A modern civilized society is built on compromise and common sense. Your suggestion that I should be ashamed of myself is laughable. Broaden your mind !

[LannaGuy]

All violence should be condemned. I loathe the Rights message but let them spout their filth and ignore it, news blackout it and it will fade into obscurity. Ghandi knew a thing or two about non-violent response for change. 

[LannaGuy]

38 minutes ago, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

Then think of the history of why these statues are in public squares around the south. The majority of human beings in Charlottesville during Civil War times were slaves. Robert E Lee never stepped foot in Charlottesville. (The statues were put there 60 years after the war by White supremacist local government, to celebrate Jim Crow segregation and terrorize blacks).Most of the current local residents of Charlottesville don't want the statues. To say you support "keeping the Lee statue in the park" in 2017, puts your thinking inline with a few ignorant people clinging to a past that never existed and open racists and Nazis.

Let's get rid of the other statues of the 18 Presidents who kept slaves too!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves

 

Including Washington and Jefferson in fact let's blow up half of Rushmore too as it's an affront!!!  

[boomerangutang]

                              A note about the Civil War:    The battle of Antietam (Maryland), which saw the greatest # of Americans killed (22,500) in one day, in US history...    was considered a draw.   In other words, despite thousands of young men killed on both sides, neither side was victorious.

 

                                 Yet, there was a point in the battle, where the Rebels could have won.   It happened around the middle of the timeline, and the battle was located in roughly the middle of several battle locations on that bloody day.   There was a very strong line of Rebels dug in at the ridge of a slope. Rebels were in a ditch - an excellent defensive position.  The Yanks were plodding up the hill, being mowed down by Rebel bullets like a chainsaw on cheese.  At one point, a Rebel captain misread a directive.  He thought the order for retreat was given, so he pulled his platoon back from the trench.   Very soon after, Yanks jumped in the weak point of the defense and proceeded to shoot down the trench, both ways, mowing down Rebels in literal heaps.   

 

                            If that one Rebel captain had not misinterpreted that one order, the whole battle would have likely swung in favor of the Rebel forces, and it would have likely changed the direction of the war.

[Pinot]

18 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

Everyone with a mind fully realizes that slavery was a truly terrible thing and had no place in a civilized world, but we have moved on since then, at least the more sensible of us have. How can you possibly call me a racist when you don,t even know me ? I have friends of all colours and take everyone as they come. This is about the attempts by the incredibly narrow minded liberals (read radicals) to erase history. We should all be glad that the confederacy failed, but it DID happen and was an extremely significant part of American history. A modern civilized society is built on compromise and common sense. Your suggestion that I should be ashamed of myself is laughable. Broaden your mind !

 

You cannot call yourself a patriot and be a racist, neo-Nazi white nationalist at the same time. 

 

Broaden my mind...Hey, compromise this!

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

All I saw is a heavily armed group of liberals spoiling for a fight (without neccessary permits) and coming off worse, then screaming blue murder about it all. They should take stock of the situation, and make an effort to protest peacefully and legally in the future. It's not as if they don't have a habit of violent behavior - just look at the Berkeley riots against free speech where they assaulted and burnt anything and everything in their path.

 Trump is exactly right, all sides here must share the blame. Not sure why this is such a difficult message for some to swallow?

Clearly you're politically clueless. Liberals are people who believe in the power of government to make people's lives better. The protesters were anarchists. People who believe in no government. But you're probably confused because they are against racism, unlike so much of the political right.

[JHolmesJr]

what did trump say that was inaccurate?

 

nothing.

 

yet the spinbois want to twist his words to imply…see, things would have been much better under our candidate.

 

rubbish as usual.

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, WaywardWind said:

The First Amendment protects speech from government sourced/sponsored suppression. Nothing more.

 

It does not protect anyone from having their remarks challenged, even suppressed, by others who are not connected with government.

 

If government officials are not involved, then there is no First Amendment application.

If your constitutional rights are being violated by others, the government not only has a right to put a halt to that, it has a duty to.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

Do you have data supporting your assertion "Most of the current local residents of Charlottesville don't want the statues."   Why plural?  Are there other statues in contention?  It doesn't matter whether Lee was in Charlottesville 160 years ago.  George Washington never went to the west coast of N.America, yet there's a large state there named after him.     

Note, there's a statue of General Douglas Haig in London.  He commanded British forces in Europe during WWII.  He is blamed for contributing to the deaths of a half million (and grave injuries to 2 million) young British men - due to his foolish belief that charging 300 meters at German machine guns in knee-deep mud would win the war.  Should his statue be taken down?  

 

 

 

Don't deflect to irrelevancy. They don't want the Lee statue or the many others that are now going to come down at statehouses and town squares around the South. This is a very liberal college town (guarantee they voted Clinton there in huge majority). It is also one of the whitest cities in the South. Many out of town for summer and the white supremacists and Nazis knew thought they could overwhelm the security forces there and hugely outnumber the local opposition, in preparation for bigger rally in Richmond in September. The rascist rally has nothing to do with a statue the outside agitators chose this site on purpose. There are many unfair comparisons to Stalinist style erasure of history. Nothing of the sort the various monuments offered for or donation always end up in museums. The People of Charlottesville don't want to celebrate the "lost cause" of the confederacy, the so called "glory of traditions" (slavery), or back handed way racist structures of control continued in the south through Jim Crow laws. The people who put up the statue in the 1920's were segregationists and racists and it is no longer appropriate in 2017 to be there.

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

51 minutes ago, phantomfiddler said:

Everyone should watch the truly excellent unbiased Burns documentary "The Civil War", after which they would surely realize that Lee was an extremely important part of American history and should never be brushed under the carpet. The liberals have degenerated into a bunch of narrow minded thugs insisting everything must be their way, and because of this I believe Trump is correct in what he says.

No one is talking about brushing Robert E. Lee under the carpet. It's about not celebrating him. I guess you think it's a pity that after WW2 the Germans took down all the statues of Hitler and his friends, too.

[ilostmypassword]

37 minutes ago, Rancid said:

Pretty much how I saw it. However the liberal PC media use it to claim Trump is a racist. Racism is ugly, but so is violently enforcing PC, one objectionable and the other Orwellian. Seems one side of totalitarianism always gets a free pass.

So you think anarchists, who are against any form of government are liberals, too? Sad.

[WaywardWind]

11 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

If your constitutional rights are being violated by others, the government not only has a right to put a halt to that, it has a duty to.

Nope, not if the conduct is at the hands of a private individual. It may well be a criminal violation in many cases, but it does not raise constitutional issues.

 

Common example: your employer fires you for posting something on the internet that the employer disagrees with. While you may have rights under a union contract or an individual employment contract, there is no constitutional issue on which you can base a claim.

[ilostmypassword]

11 minutes ago, WaywardWind said:

Nope, not if the conduct is at the hands of a private individual. It may well be a criminal violation in many cases, but it does not raise constitutional issues.

 

Common example: your employer fires you for posting something on the internet that the employer disagrees with. While you may have rights under a union contract or an individual employment contract, there is no constitutional issue on which you can base a claim.

One is a question of basic constitutional rights, the other is a civil matter.