Midweek rant: The Right to Rant – it’s not bashing Thailand to criticize

[oldhippy]

50 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Have you ever seen or heard The Dalai Lama who describes himself as a simple monk make "constructive criticism" of anyone.  Even I'm not perfect and sometimes I resort to "destructive criticism"  (blast).  Thai culture insists that there is always an alternative to "destructive criticism" .  Perhaps people should remember.  "When in Rome do as the Romans do" 

 "When in Rome do as the Romans do" 

 

Last warning: STOP feeding christians to the lions!

 

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

There are somethings that irritate me in Thailand, but there was an awful lot that used to irritate me in England as well.

Noted.

 

4 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

A lot of TV members do seem to an insecure, moaning load of old farts. Leopards don`t change their spots, I bet they were the same in their own countries as well.

Well noted.

 

 

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Noted.

 

Well noted.

 

 

touché 555

[JLCrab]

... well this one puts it just a little simpler:

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by JLCrab

[amvet]

6 hours ago, David Walden said:

Have you ever seen or heard The Dalai Lama who describes himself as a simple monk make "constructive criticism" of anyone.  Even I'm not perfect and sometimes I resort to "destructive criticism"  (blast).  Thai culture insists that there is always an alternative to "destructive criticism" .  Perhaps people should remember.  "When in Rome do as the Romans do" 

Sorry Dave but it is innate in Thais to criticize everything, everyone all the time.  They however can't take criticism of any kind, anytime or anyplace especially from anyone who is lower than them in their pecking order. 

[VBF]

16 minutes ago, amvet said:

Sorry Dave but it is innate in Thais to criticize everything, everyone all the time.  They however can't take criticism of any kind, anytime or anyplace especially from anyone who is lower than them in their pecking order. 

You beat me to it! 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, VBF said:

You beat me to it! 

And me....

[sawadee1947]

19 hours ago, xylophone said:

and his response was that, "Thai electricity does not need an earth".

and what happens normally...._____ ? He would not come back after lunch break.....

As I stated before: Change could be only by themselves. But I agree there are ways for support. My friend told me the German Govt. started a joint venture program. "Electrician"-students have to go to vocational school/college in connection to a practical working time in a certified company. After 3 years they will get a certificate. Of course after passing a theoretical and practical test. With this certificate they can ask for a better salary.

It's no good to be a smartass and show them how stupid they are. Put yourself in their shoes sometimes. Then you know what and how to do.

And concerning Singapore: yes, they got a dictatorship what might suit Thailand? But don't forget: Singapore was colonized but not Thailand.

[VBF]

2 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

It's no good to be a smartass and show them how stupid they are. Put yourself in their shoes sometimes. Then you know what and how to do.

 

IMO There is a difference between being a smart-arse and offering constructive criticism and advice.

For example, instead of saying what I just wrote, I could have said to you "That's a damn stupid comment, you idiot"

That would certainly and rightly annoy you but Instead I prefer to politely point out to you that I think you may like to re-think what you said. Then again...you may not.

[sawadee1947]

17 hours ago, amvet said:

Perhaps English is not your first language

you are absolutely right. I was born with a leprechaun  in my mouth: I'm Irish.

[sawadee1947]

4 minutes ago, VBF said:

offering constructive criticism and advice

hahahahha.....if you show him that his work is unsafe and wrong....he would lose his face. Reaction is the same. He would never work for you again. Or....following your statement you can sponsor him to study and offer high salary. Later.

(An Australian friend started to build his "palace" recently in Chaipra...He's an engineer. And told his workers every day what and HOW to do. At the end he got already his fourth gang trying to finish his house) What would have been your advice in his case???

[transam]

7 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

you are absolutely right. I was born with a leprechaun  in my mouth: I'm Irish.

And it shows....

[Justgrazing]

14 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

you are absolutely right. I was born with a leprechaun  in my mouth: I'm Irish.

Hahaha .. Superb riposte Sir .. But is you're second lang' Gaelic and if so is it accepted on T V F .?  

[VBF]

3 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

hahahahha.....if you show him that his work is unsafe and wrong....he would lose his face. Reaction is the same. He would never work for you again. Or....following your statement you can sponsor him to study and offer high salary. Later.

(An Australian friend started to build his "palace" recently in Chaipra...He's an engineer. And told his workers every day what and HOW to do. At the end he got already his fourth gang trying to finish his house) What would have been your advice in his case???

Honestly - I don't know!

However, if the work being done is really unsafe and wrong then perhaps your friend is better off getting crew number 5 lined up.  

I do know that my methods worked with Filipino and South Asian people in the mid-east when I worked there in supervisory roles. Totally different mind sets I realise but my teams showed me respect and were willing to help me out when they didn't need to. Not sure how relevant that is but felt the need to reply.....

[NanLaew]

29 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

and what happens normally...._____ ? He would not come back after lunch break.....

As I stated before: Change could be only by themselves. But I agree there are ways for support. My friend told me the German Govt. started a joint venture program. "Electrician"-students have to go to vocational school/college in connection to a practical working time in a certified company. After 3 years they will get a certificate. Of course after passing a theoretical and practical test. With this certificate they can ask for a better salary.

It's no good to be a smartass and show them how stupid they are. Put yourself in their shoes sometimes. Then you know what and how to do.

And concerning Singapore: yes, they got a dictatorship what might suit Thailand? But don't forget: Singapore was colonized but not Thailand.

I would wager that the Thai-Austrian Technical College (Sattahip) has been churning out qualified sparkies, replete with bits of paper, since at least 1990. However, there's certainly no evidence that these graduates ever move beyond being time-served apprentices where they are quickly taught all the time-saving (and money-making) short cuts that their comparatively unschooled bosses and supervisors teach them.

 

As my uncle used to lament, "You buys them books and you sends them to school..."

 

BTW, Singapore was occupied not colonized, same same Thailand. They just have different ways of admitting it with denial being favored here.

Edited August 18, 2017 by NanLaew

[rkidlad]

It's great to see so many foreigners telling other foreigners that basically all Thais are the same. They're all snowflakes who shouldn't be criticized. Right or wrong - it's the culture.

 

Sure glad I'm in a relationship with the one Thai who isn't. I'll be sure not to disclose her name for fear she'll be shamed online for her individualistic views. 

 

One last thing; is this 'culture' thing optional? What if a Thai said, "You know what? I don't wanna be apart of all this. I just wanna be left alone to do whatever I wanna do. I'm gonna write a book and make 'be yourself' Youtube videos embracing free thinking'. You think the people in power would be okay with that? Doesn't matter anyway. These people don't exist, right?

 

Guess we'll never know. 

 

 

 

[VBF]

4 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

It's great to see so many foreigners telling other foreigners that basically all Thais are the same. They're all snowflakes who shouldn't be criticized. Right or wrong - it's the culture.

 

Sure glad I'm in a relationship with the one Thai who isn't. I'll be sure not to disclose her name for fear she'll be shamed online for her individualistic views. 

 

One last thing; is this 'culture' thing optional? What if a Thai said, "You know what? I don't wanna be apart of all this. I just wanna be left alone to do whatever I wanna do. I'm gonna write a book and make 'be yourself' Youtube videos embracing free thinking'. You think the people in power would be okay with that? Doesn't matter anyway. These people don't exist, right?

 

Guess we'll never know. 

 

 

 

Nice post. I think perhaps we're discussing the perceived over-riding racial characteristics of Thais, rather than saying they're all the same.  

But you're right, some of the comments are rather arrogant and patronising - I suspect mine included. Hmmmmm......

Edited August 18, 2017 by VBF

[rkidlad]

21 minutes ago, VBF said:

Nice post. I think perhaps we're discussing the over-riding racial characteristics of Thais, rather than saying they're all the same.  

But you're right, some of the comments are rather arrogant and patronising - I suspect mine included. Hmmmmm......

It's the whole regressive progressive thing. To merely comment on something is wrong. 

 

I, for one, am not trying to change anything about this country. It's not my place. But to be told by other foreigners that I have no right to an opinion, no way. They've annoyed me there with their regressive thinking.

 

Sadly, this kind of mentality often doesn't come from a good place. It comes from a place where people have low self-esteem or seek to feel empowered because they're echoing what's socially acceptable. Basically, narcissism rears its ugly head. 

 

The thing I love about Thailand is the thing so many foreigners don't - being an outsider. I'm left alone and I love that. I can easily surround myself with the locals and foreigners I want, and I can be left alone by the people I don't want anything to do with.

 

If a Thai brings a contentious or 'taboo' issue up in conversation, I'll listen and get a feel for them. If I feel they just wanna give uninformed opinions and don't wanna discuss, I smile and say thanks for your time. As I do outside with foreigners. As you get to know certain Thais better, a veneer can rub off. And guess what? They are humans with feelings and opinions, too. Crazy, huh?

 

I may not always agree with what they say (often I don't) but I know my audience and I'd always strongly advocate for people to be allowed to express their own thoughts and opinions regardless of whether I agree with them or not. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by rkidlad

[Justgrazing]

8 hours ago, David Walden said:

Give up the bar girls...

Eh .! Give up bargirls .! And pray tell me Sir who then would be on hand to offer succour to the poor unfortunate daughter's of farmers who like ants to the sugar bowl have made the pilgramage here .. Are you not aware of the constant bad luck that afflicts these people .?  The tales of devasting woe like sick water buffalo , distant sisters suffering multiple motorcycle accidents with no way of funding medi' expenses , Mamma's getting banged up in the local monkey house for little more than gambling debts .. What will become of them if we no longer heeded their heartfelt cries of  " welcum hansum man " and " take care you longtime  " And how else could they buy Land for the future without the regular Western Union payments made by concerned farang " boyfriends " because make no mistake Sir those Thai fellows are unlikely to take it up themselves to fill the gap of " helping " these poor wretched souls .. And should you're advice be followed what then is there to do in this world class resort eh .? apart from sit in Traffic trying to get to toxic beaches strewn with turds and dodging 000's of Chinese squatting the gob splattered sidewalks on masse .. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Justgrazing
Spelling

[Kadilo]

The thing I love about Thailand is the thing so many foreigners don't - being an outsider. I'm left alone and I love that. I can easily surround myself with the locals and foreigners I want, and I can be left alone by the people I don't want anything to do with.
 

 
 

Struck a chord with me.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sawadee1947]

30 minutes ago, Justgrazing said:

Hahaha .. Superb riposte Sir .. But is you're second lang' Gaelic and if so is it accepted on T V F .?  

 

44 minutes ago, VBF said:

Totally different mind sets

you got me 100%

[VBF]

12 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

It's the whole regressive progressive thing. To merely comment on something is wrong. 

 

I, for one, am not trying to change anything about this country. It's not my place. But to be told by other foreigners that I have no right to an opinion, no way. They've annoyed me there with their regressive thinking.

 

Sadly, this kind of mentality often doesn't come from a good place. It comes from a place where people have low self-esteem or seek to feel empowered because they're echoing what's socially acceptable. Basically, narcissism rears its ugly head. 

 

The thing I love about Thailand is the thing so many foreigners don't - being an outsider. I'm left alone and I love that. I can easily surround myself with the locals and foreigners I want, and I can be left alone by the people I don't want anything to do with.

 

If a Thai brings a contentious or 'taboo' issue up in conversation, I'll listen and get a feel for them. If I feel they just wanna give uninformed opinions and don't wanna discuss, I smile and say thanks for your time. As I do outside with foreigners. As you get to know certain Thais better, a veneer can rub off. And guess what? They are humans with feelings and opinions, too. Crazy, huh?

 

I may not always agree with what they say (often I don't) but I know my audience and I'd always strongly advocate for people to be allowed to express their own thoughts and opinions regardless of whether I agree with them or not. 

 

 

@rkidlad  I'm inclined to agree with that (especially as most of it is your personal philosophy) except "To merely comment on something is wrong."  With that I disagree - especially as you go on to say you "strongly advocate for people to be allowed to express their own thoughts....etc"

Contradictory, surely?

[rkidlad]

1 minute ago, VBF said:

@rkidlad  I'm inclined to agree with that (especially as most of it is your personal philosophy) except "To merely comment on something is wrong."  With that I disagree - especially as you go on to say you "strongly advocate for people to be allowed to express their own thoughts....etc"

Contradictory, surely?

I meant regressives who say you shouldn't be allowed to comment on something because it may cause offence. 'Merely' was highlighting that that's all it is - a comment. 

[VBF]

2 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

I meant regressives who say you shouldn't be allowed to comment on something because it may cause offence. 'Merely' was highlighting that that's all it is - a comment. 

Gotcha! I initially read it as the exact opposite of what you meant - my bad! 

[rkidlad]

Just now, VBF said:

Gotcha! I initially read it as the exact opposite of what you meant - my bad! 

No worries. 

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, VBF said:

do know that my methods worked with Filipino and South Asian people in the mid-east when I worked there in supervisory roles. Totally different mind sets I realise but my teams showed me respect and were willing to help me out when they didn't need to.

Sounds familiar territory............I also trained Libyan and Nigerian engineers as well as sales and service teams in the UK and NZ and the improvement in themselves and work practices was clear to see........and they enjoyed the improved results and positive reinforcement, so change occurred in a positive way

 

As you have tried to explain you don't call people out or call them idiots, you work with them to analyze and gain agreement on what they've done and see and agree if there is room for improvement.

 

As for the electrician who may not come back after lunch; well that probably saved a few lives by getting one in who DID KNOW which appliances needed earthing!!!!!! (ref: Sawadee1947)

Edited August 18, 2017 by xylophone

[David Walden]

10 hours ago, oldhippy said:

 "When in Rome do as the Romans do" 

 

Last warning: STOP feeding christians to the lions!

 

Touche...

[David Walden]

3 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

Eh .! Give up bargirls .! And pray tell me Sir who then would be on hand to offer succour to the poor unfortunate daughter's of farmers who like ants to the sugar bowl have made the pilgramage here .. Are you not aware of the constant bad luck that afflicts these people .?  The tales of devasting woe like sick water buffalo , distant sisters suffering multiple motorcycle accidents with no way of funding medi' expenses , Mamma's getting banged up in the local monkey house for little more than gambling debts .. What will become of them if we no longer heeded their heartfelt cries of  " welcum hansum man " and " take care you longtime  " And how else could they buy Land for the future without the regular Western Union payments made by concerned farang " boyfriends " because make no mistake Sir those Thai fellows are unlikely to take it up themselves to fill the gap of " helping " these poor wretched souls .. And should you're advice be followed what then is there to do in this world class resort eh .? apart from sit in Traffic trying to get to toxic beaches strewn with turds and dodging 000's of Chinese squatting the gob splattered sidewalks on masse .. 

Whew I only said 5 words  "Give up the bar girls"...I love Thailand and Thais warts and all.

Edited August 18, 2017 by David Walden

[YouNoRantMe]

On 16/08/2017 at 11:57 PM, lamyai3 said:

Indeed, nothing more tedious than to hear the line "if you don't like it here, go home"... usually uttered by the sort of person who would have made a great traffic warden back in their own country. 

1) How would you like it if foreigners in your home country rant against your homeland?

2) I doubt that many of those who try to give lessons in Thailand would accept this back in their homelands from foreigners or economical refugees who don't have the cash to live a decent life in their own countries.

[YouNoRantMe]

On 17/08/2017 at 0:34 PM, observer90210 said:

Foreigners ranting away from their homeland is not the point.

 

The point would be that those who rant abroad would rant exactly in the same fashion if they were back home.

 

Nothing to do with Thailand, UK, OZ or whereever....it's just a question of a specific type of inner state of mind.

 

As a matter of fact, I do rant here and there in my homeland and do so similar in Thailand. All depends also on the mood of the day. Somedays you tolerate more, somedays less.

 

The concluding question would be, when you are say invited at a dinner  at somebody's house, do you start to rant against everything or anything in your host's place, say against the hostesses's cooking,  or do you just remain polite and keep your mouth shut? There would be different answers to this question but you do get the point...I hope!

 

 

 

 

 

A moderate and sensible post. At last.