Yingluck verdict holds the key to reconciliation

[SunsetT]

7 hours ago, lucjoker said:

why monkeys have no politicians?

They dont need them .

they have a fight ...the strongest wins ...and all is quit again.

 

In politics the weaker wants to win because he has more money.......not fair at all .

'they have a fight ...the strongest wins ...and all is quit again' = military coup

[ginjag]

4 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

You don't know that you just believe the spin that she is stupid and/or in her brothers control and I believe neither.

Follow the money 500  billion  ??     some one was stupid,  or would you say it was a small error in the rice committee management

[Janner1]

10 hours ago, Siripon said:

Expel the Shinawats, red shirts and grass roots!

So presumably you think the yellow shirts should again be all powerful and the voice of the people, the hard workers who actually make Thailand should be ignored for all time ??

 

i am not an supporter of the red shirts or any organisation with socialist leanings but I am in favour of the right of the people to raise themselves above poverty and provide properly for their children, and to have access to good medical care and education.

 

Ok they may or may not have made money by their activities, ( tell me what politician does not ) but the heart of the Shinawats was to help the people gain access to all that they need, but it appears to me that the yellow shirts are only interested in keeping the said people down.

 

just look at how they screamed when the minimum wage was increased by just 50 baht per DAY to a penury 350 baht per DAY. 

Now tell me in all honesty, would get off your rear end and slog your heart out all day on a construction site or in a field in high temperatures for 350Baht per day?

 

i do not think so!!!

 

most westerners would not take the time to switch the alarm on for 350 Baht never mind work all day, so why should anyone consider making the backbone of the country suck it and see ?

[Jip99]

14 minutes ago, Janner1 said:

So presumably you think the yellow shirts should again be all powerful and the voice of the people, the hard workers who actually make Thailand should be ignored for all time ??

 

i am not an supporter of the red shirts or any organisation with socialist leanings but I am in favour of the right of the people to raise themselves above poverty and provide properly for their children, and to have access to good medical care and education.

 

Ok they may or may not have made money by their activities, ( tell me what politician does not ) but the heart of the Shinawats was to help the people gain access to all that they need, but it appears to me that the yellow shirts are only interested in keeping the said people down.

 

just look at how they screamed when the minimum wage was increased by just 50 baht per DAY to a penury 350 baht per DAY. 

Now tell me in all honesty, would get off your rear end and slog your heart out all day on a construction site or in a field in high temperatures for 350Baht per day?

 

i do not think so!!!

 

most westerners would not take the time to switch the alarm on for 350 Baht never mind work all day, so why should anyone consider making the backbone of the country suck it and see ?

 

 

Another discontent westerner trying to pull the Thais up by their bootstraps by applying western socialist idealisms to people who don't need them.

 

I wonder if he realizes that most of those doing back-breaking work for 350 Baht, or less, per day are probably Cambodian or Burmese.

 

Thais are inherently lazy and most are content with their subsistence lifestyles.

[lucjoker]

3 hours ago, SunsetT said:

'they have a fight ...the strongest wins ...and all is quit again' = military coup

So,as expected....monkey see...monkey do ........ 

[Becker]

9 hours ago, Becker said:

Well, as one of the "democracy loving" bad boys on this forum i tell you: Bring it on! Ask the questions we apparently avoid like the plague and I will answer them.

In return you will then answer some questions I have asked you junta fanboys for the last 3+ years, questions which you all run away from like little girls.

Deal?

 

 

9 hours ago, halloween said:

done

Still waiting......

[halloween]

5 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

I see you have no experience in management or governance. I have.

 

I was chair of many meetings and did not attend most, delegating it to my team. SOP (Standard Operating Practice).

 

PM's and presidents do not 'Chair' all their committee's and meetings and your failure to understand this very basic concept is frightening.  As for posts all over the place... 

Did you have a lot of shopping too?

 

In your wide experience did you come across a PM/chair with a lower attendance at parliament/meetings? Would that be possible?

[halloween]

Just now, Becker said:

 

Still waiting......

So am I. You offered, I accepted, away you go.

[Becker]

6 minutes ago, halloween said:

So am I. You offered, I accepted, away you go.

Try to read what was said one more time:

 

I'm waiting for the questions we "democracy loving" posters avoid like the plague. Where are they?

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, Becker said:

Try to read what was said one more time:

 

I'm waiting for the questions we "democracy loving" posters avoid like the plague. Where are they?

Doh! You jump into a series of replies and you can't even backtrack to the original? Or don't you bother to read the thread, just go looking for somebody to launch a personal attack? 

 

Try post #10.

[Becker]

9 minutes ago, halloween said:

Doh! You jump into a series of replies and you can't even backtrack to the original? Or don't you bother to read the thread, just go looking for somebody to launch a personal attack? 

 

Try post #10.

Those are the question us democracy lovers avoid like the plague????

 

Why should a defendant's popularity be of concern to the court?

It shouldn't. The court should also be independent but it isn't. 

 

Why pander to those who support criminals demanding they escape prosecution in the name of "reconciliation"?

No one should be pandered to - not criminal politicians nor criminal generals. And pointing out that this case is not about prosecuting criminals but getting rid of political opponents is not pandering, it's just facts. 

 

What advance in Thai democracy is there if the ballot box over-rides the law?

None, but at least the ballot box is there if the over-riding takes place so whoever is in power can be removed. Not so with yet another junta that tears up constitutions, give themselves blanket amnesties and desperately rig the system so that they can maintain their place at the trough.

 

Is that the best you got? 

[scorecard]

29 minutes ago, Becker said:

 

..... And pointing out that this case is not about prosecuting criminals but getting rid of political opponents is not pandering, it's just facts. 

"...It's just facts."  

 

No it's not fact, it's your opinion, but go right ahead any try to sway the popularity vote.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by scorecard

[halloween]

30 minutes ago, Becker said:

Those are the question us democracy lovers avoid like the plague????

 

Why should a defendant's popularity be of concern to the court?

It shouldn't. The court should also be independent but it isn't. 

 

Why pander to those who support criminals demanding they escape prosecution in the name of "reconciliation"?

No one should be pandered to - not criminal politicians nor criminal generals. And pointing out that this case is not about prosecuting criminals but getting rid of political opponents is not pandering, it's just facts. 

 

What advance in Thai democracy is there if the ballot box over-rides the law?

None, but at least the ballot box is there if the over-riding takes place so whoever is in power can be removed. Not so with yet another junta that tears up constitutions, give themselves blanket amnesties and desperately rig the system so that they can maintain their place at the trough.

 

Is that the best you got? 

The court should be independent, that's why I am expecting a guilty verdict.

 

Have you ever considered that the political opponents being got rid of are also criminals? But when they are criminals who were elected, it becomes political, at least in the opinion of those who elected them. Which is irrelevant.

 

None, but then you give reasons why it should, because you expect democracy to reform itself while in the hands of criminals. I have no such expectation after witnessing laws being changed, even their definition, to protect the guilty.

[candide]

14 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Broken record syndrome.

And answering nearly every post in this thread, which syndrome is it?

Edited August 24, 2017 by candide

[Becker]

3 hours ago, halloween said:

The court should be independent, that's why I am expecting a guilty verdict.

And there should not be war and disease in the world, but it is. Seriously, is that your reply, that the courts should be independent?? Tell me, what is it that has taken place in Thailand during the last few decades that leads you to believe that the courts actually are independent and will deliver an impartial verdict??

 

Have you ever considered that the political opponents being got rid of are also criminals? But when they are criminals who were elected, it becomes political, at least in the opinion of those who elected them. Which is irrelevant.

Have I considered it? Yes, of course. But again you completely miss the point. It would have been just as political if the present junta had "couped" another junta and put them on trial. It would still have been crooks fighting other crooks for the access to the trough.

 

None, but then you give reasons why it should, because you expect democracy to reform itself while in the hands of criminals. I have no such expectation after witnessing laws being changed, even their definition, to protect the guilty.

I expect nothing, but after 20ish coups where nothing has changed why not try democracy (with all its flaws) for a change instead of the endless cycle of coups. Again I could quote you Einstein and his definition of insanity but it doesn't seem to register.

Answers in blue.

[Becker]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

"...It's just facts."  

 

No it's not fact, it's your opinion, but go right ahead any try to sway the popularity vote.

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me, what do you think is the reason the junta goes after YL? Is it because they're genuine nice guys who only want what's best for Thailand? Is that why they overthrew the government - altruism??

 

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, Becker said:

Tell me, what do you think is the reason the junta goes after YL? Is it because they're genuine nice guys who only want what's best for Thailand? Is that why they overthrew the government - altruism??

 

 

You'll have to do better than that. You, me, and nobody knows 'as a fact'.

[candide]

30 minutes ago, Becker said:

Tell me, what do you think is the reason the junta goes after YL? Is it because they're genuine nice guys who only want what's best for Thailand? Is that why they overthrew the government - altruism??

 

They are so altruist that they first applied to themselves the rules they apply to others! 

[Siripon]

11 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

Often the distinction between a lazy, uninformed opinion and sheer stupidity can be hard to discern.  The 30 baht scheme reduced infant mortality in Thailand by 13% in the first year according to researchers at MIT. 

http://news.mit.edu/2014/how-health-care-plan-quickly-lowered-infant-mortality-0430

 

That is a huge public health outcome.  Impoverished households also dropped from 3.4% in 1996 to 0.8 to 1.3% between 2006 and 2009.

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2013/04/new-research-continues-to-demonstrate-the-success-of-thailands-universal-coverage-healthcare-scheme/#7UhbVhRk6AqYjLhg.97

 

For starters.  Thaksin made political promises to the Thai majority and he kept those promises, for which they quite understandably love him. 

The 30 baht scheme is okay if you like paracetamol to cure liver cancer . Thaksin's promise to offer cheap rubber saplings to Issan farmers really worked out well didn't it at 25 baht a kilo?

And as for the rice scheme, 15,000 baht for rice, any quality, any strain! Utter, utter stupidity, but of course the farmers lapped it up, or rather the landowners did. rented prices increase all round!

[Siripon]

10 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

what a horrible nonsense.!!!!!

Do you think honestly there would be a sudden change in Thailand without a couple of people.????? No way.

BTW there are more Shinawatras coming. Enough for the next 50 or 100 years or more.

A change has to start from the beginning!! From Kindergarten on, primary school, High school, university. Then there might be a change if the parents and teachers, just the whole society would change. And you cannot order the change or reconciliation. There has to be a change in virtues, laws, character.  It's a matter of education.

I mention education in my first sentence!

[Siripon]

7 hours ago, Janner1 said:

So presumably you think the yellow shirts should again be all powerful and the voice of the people, the hard workers who actually make Thailand should be ignored for all time ??

 

i am not an supporter of the red shirts or any organisation with socialist leanings but I am in favour of the right of the people to raise themselves above poverty and provide properly for their children, and to have access to good medical care and education.

 

Ok they may or may not have made money by their activities, ( tell me what politician does not ) but the heart of the Shinawats was to help the people gain access to all that they need, but it appears to me that the yellow shirts are only interested in keeping the said people down.

 

just look at how they screamed when the minimum wage was increased by just 50 baht per DAY to a penury 350 baht per DAY. 

Now tell me in all honesty, would get off your rear end and slog your heart out all day on a construction site or in a field in high temperatures for 350Baht per day?

 

i do not think so!!!

 

most westerners would not take the time to switch the alarm on for 350 Baht never mind work all day, so why should anyone consider making the backbone of the country suck it and see ?

As mentioned, I was urging the grass roots and red shirts to expel the Shinawats from politics.

[Siripon]

11 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

Welcome back.Your knowledge and ability to articulate an argument are appreciated.Most of my Thai friends hold exactly the same views on this matter that you have expressed.Your post was however on this occasion trite and ignorant.

Let me explain why I think you are completely wrong.Politics should not be a zero sum game.In Thailand progress has been stymied because the opposing political forces want complete victory.But outside a state of open war this is not possible.In any solution there must be a give and take.In this process there will be concessions on both sides that feel profoundly uncomfortable.

For the time being opposition to the unelected elites cannot be separated from the Shinawatra influence.The Junta clearly believes this to be so with its steely determination to crush this altogether.It ( and its shadowy backers) believes as perhaps you do that the difficulties of the last decade or so have been created by Thaksin stirring up the rural voters simply for his own advantage.

Thaksin is clearly an opportunist but it was he that politicised millions of rural Thais who felt he had their interests at heart.There was a gap in the market since the other political parties were too Bangkok based and too influenced by Sino Thai middle class interests.Of course Thaksin wasn't much different in background- just sharper and quicker on the uptake, though often clumsy in implementation.

I do not think you can blame Pheua Thai for a lack of long term policies when their powerful enemies are bent on destroying them.It's like asking a drowning man what he going to have dinner when he reaches the shore.In any case populist PT policies have been copied by Abhisit and the Junta.But the Thai public knows who to credit.

Of course the Amnesty Bill was a mistake but something like that will be needed even if Thaksin is excluded.I presume you are having a laugh when you say Yingluck would still be in power if the Bill had not been introduced.

Thailand is one of the most unequal societies on earth.Wealth is mostly vested in Sino Thai interests and the fearful Sino Thai middle class in the main go along with a system that makes the majority second class citizens.Regardless of the verdict today nothing will be solved- with problems increased and stored up for the future.I have great faith in Thai ability to compromise and emerge triumphant.But to date the governing class has shown little evidence of any enlightened sense of its own interests.If they want things to remain the same things will have to change.

We have been through all of this before. The 1997 constitution was a wonderful piece of work giving political parties considerable freedom and the public a real say in the workings of government but Thaksin came along with his money and determination to dominate at all costs, ruining what was a fragile yet growing democracy at the time. Yes, he awakened and united the majority of the Thai people under one banner but at what cost? Absolute domination by himself.

In a way he was worse than the junta because he pretended to be democratic when all along he muzzled every independent organization going.

I believe the army, the elite,  could cope with the rise of working class power if the movement was led by people of talent, intelligence  and honesty, but for that to happen, politics needs to be free of money politics- a scenario only possible with educational reform and legal measures. 

 

To develop the country long term 

[Srikcir]

16 minutes ago, Siripon said:

And as for the rice scheme, 15,000 baht for rice, any quality, any strain! Utter, utter stupidity, but of course the farmers lapped it up

Just as they did with cash subsidies made by PM's Abhisit and Prayut that didn't require a single grain of rice to be produced! "Utter, utter stupidity" as you say. But all these subsidies did financially benefit the farmers in times of destitution that should be targeted by the government.

[hathairat2711]

Reuters live link:

 

https://www.facebook.com/Reuters/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

[LannaGuy]

11 hours ago, halloween said:

Did you have a lot of shopping too?

 

In your wide experience did you come across a PM/chair with a lower attendance at parliament/meetings? Would that be possible?

 

I have not done any research about how many meetings PM's chair. She has claimed that all concerns were passed to the relevant departments and, yes, she was nominally 'Chair' of big committee's but it is standard to delegate such day-to-day stuff as she undertook the role of PM.  It is far too simplistic to say "she went shopping"  and just part of the yellow smear campaign. I think you need better arguments than repeating the Junta propaganda.  Anyway suspended sentence with large fine is my prediction - after that Appeal and in years to come a comeback.

[halloween]

33 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

I have not done any research about how many meetings PM's chair. She has claimed that all concerns were passed to the relevant departments and, yes, she was nominally 'Chair' of big committee's but it is standard to delegate such day-to-day stuff as she undertook the role of PM.  It is far too simplistic to say "she went shopping"  and just part of the yellow smear campaign. I think you need better arguments than repeating the Junta propaganda.  Anyway suspended sentence with large fine is my prediction - after that Appeal and in years to come a comeback.

Total BS. What was she so busy doing as PM, because it certainly wasn't attending parliament, something expected of an MP even if he/she is selected by their peers to be PM. She only went to parliament when he presence was mandatory, she never attended rice policy meetings, in an attempt to maintain her claim of ignorance. The trouble is deliberate ignorance is very close to negligence.

Thailand uses the Westminster system, Thaksin introduced the quasi-presidential concept of a PM not involved in the day to day workings of government.

I consider she deserves time, but would consider fair a sentence suspended AFTER she pays back at least half the B500 billion wasted.

[LannaGuy]

6 minutes ago, halloween said:

Total BS. What was she so busy doing as PM, because it certainly wasn't attending parliament, something expected of an MP even if he/she is selected by their peers to be PM. She only went to parliament when he presence was mandatory, she never attended rice policy meetings, in an attempt to maintain her claim of ignorance. The trouble is deliberate ignorance is very close to negligence.

Thailand uses the Westminster system, Thaksin introduced the quasi-presidential concept of a PM not involved in the day to day workings of government.

I consider she deserves time, but would consider fair a sentence suspended AFTER she pays back at least half the B500 billion wasted.

Nonsense bias post as always.

[halloween]

Just now, LannaGuy said:

Nonsense bias post as always.

If it is a biased post, give me another PM with a lower parliament attendance. Good luck with that, because those of major countries make a point of attending question time to defend their government's policies. And how could she do that?

[LannaGuy]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

If it is a biased post, give me another PM with a lower parliament attendance. Good luck with that, because those of major countries make a point of attending question time to defend their government's policies. And how could she do that?

PM's travel a lot and in two years Yingluck visited 42 countries  and 19 international conferences. Even she can't be in two places and THAT was her role whether YOU  like it or not. But you don't want to know the truth you prefer the 'shopping' lie to bolster your hate.

[halloween]

3 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

PM's travel a lot and in two years Yingluck visited 42 countries  and 19 international conferences. Even she can't be in two places and THAT was her role whether YOU  like it or not. But you don't want to know the truth you prefer the 'shopping' lie to bolster your hate.

OK, how about you give me one newly appointed PM who decided to do a VIP world tour instead of attending parliament? she didn't have to be in 2 places. She had to DO HER JOB in parliament. Most PM restrict the majority of their travel to when parliament is out of session, because they have a job.