UK police broke law in case of British backpackers murdered on Koh Tao

[DiscoDan]

Guilty guilty guilty bit people are still too stupid to realise, instead trying to include the NCA in their grand conspiracy. Lol

[Jonmarleesco]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

Sure it does smell of BS, but all one sadly can say is, that they confessed to being in the same area, finding a phone, then panicked when they heard of the murders, thinking the phone could belong to one of the murders.

 

What should they have done, if they were innocent, take it to the cops, being Burmese and know how the system works here, I for one am a foreigner, would I take it to the cops and say, hey, I found this on the beach last night and yes I was in the same area, or toss it in the drink, tough one, seriously, this is what I call a hot potato, but a DNA sample would have said, guilty or not, anyways that's my view on this.

There were DNA samples. Unfortunately, the tests were questionable, carried out by less-than-qualified personnel - and when asked for the evidence so that tests could be conducted by better qualified people, the RTP claimed to have disposed of (lost, I believe was the term used) the samples. Yet the court didn't find this to be grounds for doubt.

[rockingrobin]

40 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

So lets get this straight - according to British Law (and presumably therefore NOT EU law!), it is unlawful to pass information to other countries where there might be a danger that the perpetrators in question could receive the death penalty.

 

1. Does this apply to all crimes, including terrorism?

 

2. The UK is prepared to withhold vital evidence and allow the perpetrator of a murderous act to go free and do it again rather than provide information just in case the death penalty is applied!

 

By the way, I also have severe doubts that the two Burmese men convicted are in fact guilty of the crimes mentioned - here we are just talking about the principle of the matter.

 

It would make a more credible law if evidence were withheld in cases where the jurisdiction could not be trusted to provide a fair trial.

Not just in case of death penalty

 

In a UK court , the MPS stated that in the case of them holding information that could exonorate a person being convicted in an oversees territory, in order to protect their working relationship with the foreign authorities they would not disclose such information to the defense

[Ossy]

2 hours ago, gr8fldanielle said:

it almost looks like to me that the Thai police are doing the right thing but saving face by finding a way to blame someone else. These boys need to go free and I think everybody knows it.

Can't agree with you re 'the Thai police are doing the right thing', since every single aspect of their investigation has been flawed to an extent that, in most civilised countries, the 2 convicts would be freed. From crime scene security, to initial investigations, with suspects coming and going like characters in a play, questioning with neither lawyer nor interpreter, claims of 'torture' admissions and, lately, the growing concern over the Thai police's failure to follow international accepted DNA protocol, this UK police failing, relating to what was considered to be crucial 'location' phone evidence, must surely be more than good grounds for an appeal that will be properly listened to.

 

The prosecution case might not stand up NOW and the 2 'guilty' men set free. Unless or until other suspects are brought to trial, the case will, or should, return to the 'unsolved' file and, realistically, that's the best we can hope for.

 

But, please don't credit the Thai police with 'doing the right thing' . . . trying to save face, maybe . . . yes, as always!

 

[Nemesis7]

Well arranged and ore planes escape if that is the case. Bare in mind she also holds a third country citizenship that was bought with the money made from corruption. Just like her brother. Anyway in most of the money can do wonders. 

[4MyEgo]

25 minutes ago, Jonmarleesco said:

There were DNA samples. Unfortunately, the tests were questionable, carried out by less-than-qualified personnel - and when asked for the evidence so that tests could be conducted by better qualified people, the RTP claimed to have disposed of (lost, I believe was the term used) the samples. Yet the court didn't find this to be grounds for doubt.

I would have though that a court could request further DNA samples, I mean, this is Thailand, and they appear to do what they want, however would extracting a fresh DNA sample/s make some people lose face ?

[greenchair]

31 minutes ago, Jonmarleesco said:

There were DNA samples. Unfortunately, the tests were questionable, carried out by less-than-qualified personnel - and when asked for the evidence so that tests could be conducted by better qualified people, the RTP claimed to have disposed of (lost, I believe was the term used) the samples. Yet the court didn't find this to be grounds for doubt.

Yes and the original dna was from sperm, not from the same source taken from the b2 saliva swab. 

Which shows incompetence by the police. 

Then the defence demanded a retest be done from sperm of b2 because it was a different source. 

After being permitted to do a retest and compare their result to the 1st with the original data. They refused,because they did not want the findings to go directly to the judge. Then they pedalled backwards as fast as their legs could pedal to get out of that little surprise from the judge . The best thing was to demand the original sample which they knew was used up. Well, if they were so innocent, what would be the problem with the judge seeing the sperm result? 

Yet you don't see this as being grounds for doubt. 

[partington]

14 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I would have though that a court could request further DNA samples, I mean, this is Thailand, and they appear to do what they want, however would extracting a fresh DNA sample/s make some people lose face ?

The DNA samples needed are from the victims' bodies, not from the accused. There is no problem in getting DNA routinely and continuously from the accused and having it profiled anywhere by anybody. This is not the point.

 

The case would hinge on whether the accuseds' DNA matched DNA isolated from the victim(s). These are long gone if they ever existed. The prosecution's evidence on the DNA followed no accepted international format or protocol, basically amounting to a type-written sheet saying "The DNA matched" with no data that could be evaluated by anybody.

[greenchair]

18 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I would have though that a court could request further DNA samples, I mean, this is Thailand, and they appear to do what they want, however would extracting a fresh DNA sample/s make some people lose face ?

Well the problem was, the b2 did not want to provide a fresh sample so what did you want the court to do? Hold them down and wank them. 

Oh no, oh no I have been abused ?????

[Media1]

The Thais that raped and murdered them are still free and the joke is on the regime as a place not to visit. Yoyr police force needs immediate pulling down. Its a cowboy show. You dont know crooks for heroes. Look I may take my chances with the crook lol.

[Media1]

50 minutes ago, Jonmarleesco said:

There were DNA samples. Unfortunately, the tests were questionable, carried out by less-than-qualified personnel - and when asked for the evidence so that tests could be conducted by better qualified people, the RTP claimed to have disposed of (lost, I believe was the term used) the samples. Yet the court didn't find this to be grounds for doubt.

All courts in Thailand are on the paying end and very very racist, 4th world hence Thailand 4

[partington]

15 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Yes and the original dna was from sperm, not from the same source taken from the b2 saliva swab. 

Which shows incompetence by the police. 

Then the defence demanded a retest be done from sperm of b2 because it was a different source. 

After being permitted to do a retest and compare their result to the 1st with the original data. They refused,because they did not want the findings to go directly to the judge. Then they pedalled backwards as fast as their legs could pedal to get out of that little surprise from the judge . The best thing was to demand the original sample which they knew was used up. Well, if they were so innocent, what would be the problem with the judge seeing the sperm result? 

Yet you don't see this as being grounds for doubt. 

This is absolutely incorrect.  There was  no sperm DNA test, of the accused, and absolutely no necessity to do one. DNA from cheek cells is identical to DNA isolated from sperm and there is no necessity to do a sperm collection or isolation from the accused under any circumstances.

 

You are probably confused by reading somewhere that DNA from sperm cells is haploid, that is, contains only half the chromosomes of body cells. This  is true but would only be relevant if you had exactly one sperm cell to test! When DNA is made from a swab of sperm it contains millions of cells. These cells as a group contain every chromosome and therefore every DNA forensic marker in the body, and so when  DNA is prepared from this kind of sample it is indistinguishable from DNA prepared from any body cells, including the cheek cells in saliva that are the source of routine DNA for profiling. So no-one has any need to do more than collect cheek cells from the accused.

 

The DNA isolated from a rape victim would come from swabbed sperm, but once DNA is successfully isolated from THIS sample it does not need to be compared with sperm from anybody accused of the rape, because it is identical to DNA throughout their entire bodies! The 13 DNA markers compared are the same whether detected in DNA prepared from liver, cheek cells in saliva, or hair follicles or blood!

Edited August 30, 2017 by partington

[greenchair]

45 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Not just in case of death penalty

 

In a UK court , the MPS stated that in the case of them holding information that could exonorate a person being convicted in an oversees territory, in order to protect their working relationship with the foreign authorities they would not disclose such information to the defense

Well you see this is the problem. 

The defense pressured for the UK independent investigation. then wanted the UK to withhold any evidence that would unequivocally show guilt, because of the death penalty. Whilst at the same time reveal evidence that would show another person was there and anything that differed from the Thai police. 

They pressured the coroner to reveal dna findings, but after andy went to meet the coroner backpeddled on that too. 

 

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, CockneyGit said:

This should be used as the "Get Out" for the BiB. Blame the UK police, face saved all round and two innocent boys can go home.

 

A Happy Ending has just presented itself, will it be taken ??

This is an excellent point CG.

 

A mistrial is on the cards. "Verdict unsafe" due to UK involvement.

[greenchair]

It amazes me the tantrum and outcry for the UK to reveal their findings of an independent investigation that was conducted because of a Petition to the prime minister, is followed by a tantrum and outcry because the UK revealed the findings of their investigations that clearly showed the b2 guilty. 

[spidermike007]

So much was rotten, and incorrect about this sham trial, and the entire proceeding. And the reason is, that the family of the murderer are untouchable. Just like the Red Bull heir. Same thing.

 

The reason the five ruling families of Dark Tao are so fabulously wealthy, is that they have been selling land illegally for decades, with the complicity and cooperation of the land office, and most likely the local government. So fortunes are being made. And guess who is looking the other way? How many consecutive administrations have been looking the other way? Koh Samui and Koh Phangan are to some degree, lawless. But, the way those islands are operated, bears some resemblance to responsibility, and is done in a somewhat organized fashion. Dark Tao is a lawless land unto itself. It makes Tombstone, Arizona, back in the 1860's and 1870's,  look like a beacon of law and order. 

 

There is no secret here. And the solution to this problem is relatively simple, but will never, ever happen. Arrest the serial killer. Many know who the guilty family is. But, the problem is they are above the law. Any and all laws, including the army. This administration was created, to protect the elite, the wealthy, the connected, and those in power, despite proclamations to the contrary. So, the headman's son could not be arrested, even though the police, and many others knew who was guilty. Those poor Burmese chaps were framed, so this worm could roam free. And what does he do? He continues with his hobby of killing foreign women. If his father, the headman, had the slightest bit of intelligence, or control over his wayward son, he would ask him to behave himself, or at the very least to ply his trade elsewhere. Instead, he stays at home, and continues to inflict terror on Dark Tao. This family is fabulously wealthy, due to decades of illegal land sales. Therefore, they are untouchable. Even when it comes to murder, and mayhem. Totally above the law. 

[pattayadgw]

The TPF are the culprits for not conducting a proper investigation in the first place... 2 innocent people have been accused and have lost their lives... and someone else+ walk free to this day.... the whole case like nearly every case in LOS is a FARCE!!

[farcanell]

5 hours ago, greenchair said:

I do wonder what the other evidence it is that was handed to the prosecution. 

Could it be the confirmed dna match of those 2 guilty sods. 

The fact that the nca took the risk of handing over such evidence, just tells me by their investigations, they believe the b2 guilty also. 

There may well have been others there, right along with the b2. 

Gotta admit, Im also wondering about the nature of the overall intelligence handed over, however, I would think that if there were anything more incriminating ( for the scape goats) it would certainly have been used.... not so much if others were implicated, as might be the case, and which could have blown holes in the prosecutions argument.

 

also.... if memory serves... posters at the time were strident in demands that the UK participate in the investigation. Well... it seems they did, perhaps unfortunately, given what appears to be cherry picking of the information used.

 

ironically, in a real country, this would be good news for the B2.... instant retrial.... however.... that's not the case here, and all we can do, is wonder about the nature (and benefit) of the information not used.

[oldlakey]

6 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"Reprieve said the evidence and intelligence was used selectively against Lin and Phyo, and that the NCA material potentially pointed to other suspects that could have bolstered the defence case. However, this information was not given to the defence team."

From the Guardian story

 

Way to go, UK police.

 

You have likely helped to convict two innocent men.

 

What a proud day.

 

Rozzers, Coppers, The Old Bill, Pigs, Filth to name a few choices take your pick

[StayinThailand2much]

3 hours ago, ttrd said:

RE - UK police broke law in case of British backpackers murdered in Thailand

 

The good thing is that mistake will trigger the beginning of the end of the death row for those 2 Burmese lads.

 

Will be interesting to see what kind of compensation they will get beside freedom (if any)... 

Compensation? In Thailand?? They will be lucky if they are allowed to kowtow to wai the court and police officers, before being deported for being a nuisance to Thailand's good reputation.

[NeutralVoice]

4 hours ago, Crash999 said:

Interesting logic. You say there's no evidence but the UK police presented evidence. 

 

Then you say the UK police presented evidence but phones can't be evidence. Therefore the Burmese should be set free. 

 

If if I commit murder I want you as my judge! 

 

Your reasoning is just as flawed. You are parsing his words in a way to fit your own narrative. It is clear that he is trying to say that regardless of what the NCA may have supplied, there is no DIRECT evidence that IMPICATES these suspects as being the murderers, as the presented evidence does not satisfy the burden of REASONABLE DOUBT.  

Whatever geolocation data the NCA produced, I don't remember the prosecution making their case on the strength of any geolocation telemetry showing how the devices of suspects and victims remained fixed in the same location during a significant amount of time within the window of time in which the murders were committed. Even if it was, I don't think it satisfies the burden of reasonable doubt. Regardless, that problem with this news is now what the NCA did, but what they didn't do by not providing the prosecutors and the defense with the full body of the evidence gathered. It is not their job to parse and choose what the prosecution or the defense might or might not need in order to make their case. Their job and responsibility as a third party that was allowed to participate in the gathering and analysis of evidence, they are legally bound to provide the defense with all of the evidence that was gathered during the course of their investigation. If this was to happen in the UK or the US or any developed country, withholding evidence opens the door for the defense team to request a new trial. Moreover, those believe to have withheld evidence could find themselves in various degrees of trouble, although it seldom happens.

If you were to find yourself in a similar situation, I very much doubt that the judge is where your troubles will be. If it gets that far, you are already done anyway.

 

[oldlakey]

2 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Compensation? In Thailand?? They will be lucky if they are allowed to kowtow to wai the court and police officers, before being deported for being a nuisance to Thailand's good reputation.

Thailand the Mother of Entertainment Hubs as long as you are not in the cheap seats

[strawpanda]

Is this the UK government ingratiating itself with the Thai government? 

[StayinThailand2much]

27 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

So much was rotten, and incorrect about this sham trial, and the entire proceeding. And the reason is, that the family of the murderer are untouchable. Just like the Red Bull heir. Same thing...

...

Even when it comes to murder, and mayhem. Totally above the law. 

Spot on! Shows the world (again) that Thailand is still deep-rooted in feudalism, while the so-called 'independent courts', 'free press', 'democratic system', etc., are all really a sham.

 

How do many Thais pronounce 'democracy' again: "demo-crazy", which IMHO says it all.

Edited August 30, 2017 by StayinThailand2much

[DerekMarshall]

5 hours ago, dotpoom said:

The information was able to place them in the region where the crime took place.

I'm no expert here but that is pretty circumstantial!. A shop in your street got robbed last night, your phone data naturally places you in the vicinity does it mean that you did it?  

[4MyEgo]

55 minutes ago, partington said:

The DNA samples needed are from the victims' bodies, not from the accused. There is no problem in getting DNA routinely and continuously from the accused and having it profiled anywhere by anybody. This is not the point.

 

The case would hinge on whether the accuseds' DNA matched DNA isolated from the victim(s). These are long gone if they ever existed. The prosecution's evidence on the DNA followed no accepted international format or protocol, basically amounting to a type-written sheet saying "The DNA matched" with no data that could be evaluated by anybody.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

If I wasn't living in Thailand I would say "unbelievable", hope they walk !

[greenchair]

To me it is a travesty of justice, that the defence pressured and forced the UK police to be involved in this case, only to prosecute them when the evidence did not show the preferred outcome. Instead, they focus on the police have information of another suspect, to smoke and mirror the evidence showing the b2 guilt. 

This mwrn knows no shame, in their efforts to carry on this farce. 

[4MyEgo]

55 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Well the problem was, the b2 did not want to provide a fresh sample so what did you want the court to do? Hold them down and wank them. 

Oh no, oh no I have been abused ?????

Have a read above your post.

 

Being in Thailand I would assume one would worry about the DNA being tampered with ?

 

Courts can order a fresh DNA, hold them down and wank them, well whatever it takes 555, but apparently from the post above, they have their samples, its the samples from the bodies that the police threw out, if you could believe that, probably never took them in the 1st place ?

[DerekMarshall]

16 minutes ago, NeutralVoice said:

 Their job and responsibility as a third party that was allowed to participate in the gathering and analysis of evidence, they are legally bound to provide the defense with all of the evidence that was gathered during the course of their investigation. If this was to happen in the UK or the US or any developed country, withholding evidence opens the door for the defense team to request a new trial. Moreover, those believe to have withheld evidence could find themselves in various degrees of trouble, although it seldom happens.

If you were to find yourself in a similar situation, I very much doubt that the judge is where your troubles will be. If it gets that far, you are already done anyway.

 

 

Barely even third party. They had no jurisdiction in the case. They were not bound at all by any legal obligation to provide information of evidence to either defense or prosecution. They were there to monitor and observe. The UK government had to be petitioned and pressured to send the NCA.  

[manchega]

ha ha ha, because the uk police are the real culprits behind the murder?

 

well ok, I would go with that. lets get them burmese boys out of prison and living the lives of teenagers/young adults they should be.