Smart Visa (digital nomads)

[startuper]

Please, do you know some details about this?

http://movingnomads.com/blog/digital-nomad-visa-finally-introduced-in-thailand-with-a-4-year-duration/

 

It sounds quite promising, but I'm not able to find any details on the internet. 

If it already exists some thread about this topic, please past me a link here. 

 

Thanks a lot.

[ubonjoe]

It has been the news recently. Perhaps do a search on the Thailand news forum.

I think somebody is dreaming to think it is for digital nomads. Everything I have seen it is for investors and those working for certain companies,

[FritsSikkink]

Not in place yet and not much details:

 

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/business/2017/08/18/4-year-professional-visas-get-green-light/

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by FritsSikkink

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Quite hilarious that you fell for this clickbait being a digital nomad.

 

I mean, one would think that if you make your living with computers you would know better.

 

 

 

Have a like.

 

 

[Jonathan Fairfield]

I know a lot of 'digital nomad' sites jumped on the announcement of that visa as at being specifically aimed at them but from what was reported earlier this month it sounds like it is only highly skilled/technical staff and investors that would qualify, as opposed to some dude who makes websites working out of a coffee shop in Chiang Mai. 

[FritsSikkink]

From the article:

"To be eligible, applicants must be investors, startup entrepreneurs, high-level executives or highly skilled professionals."

 

"startup entrepreneurs" I would think you would need to do a proper investment and hire Thai staff to get into this category. A revenue of 20-50K a month wouldn't get you there, especially with the following being said too:

"the new visa would enable knowledge transfer that would boost business growth in the country and long-term economic benefits."

Edited August 31, 2017 by FritsSikkink

[overherebc]

Should be easy for all the DN's living in Pattaya. 

Not sure what the initial investment will be but probably in the 10,000,000 baht region.

Should be easy for them. Comments based on how much most of them say they earn.

[lkv]

22 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Should be easy for all the DN's living in Pattaya. 

Not sure what the initial investment will be but probably in the 10,000,000 baht region.

Should be easy for them. Comments based on how much most of them say they earn.

I expect something in the region of 30 million baht, 10 million is for investors in condos to qualify for a 1 year visa.

Edited August 31, 2017 by lkv

[overherebc]

13 minutes ago, lkv said:

I expect something in the region of 30 million baht, 10 million is for investors in condos to qualify for a 1 year visa.

Here's a statement you don't hear often.

That wouldn't surprise me.

??

Edit.

Not even sure if the Condo system still applies.

Edited August 31, 2017 by overherebc

[lkv]

Judging by the latest trends in Thai Immigration policy designs, I would say there is a possibility this is not a 4 year visa but a 2+2 year visa. In that case I would expect a lower investment threshold.

Edited August 31, 2017 by lkv

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

29 minutes ago, lkv said:

Judging by the latest trends in Thai Immigration policy designs, I would say there is a possibility this is not a 4 year visa but a 2+2 year visa. In that case I would expect a lower investment threshold.

It is for the Chinese to build the high speed trains and for investors and companies investing in the special economic zone. Not for nomads who dont pay tax in this country or in any other country for that matter. 

[wobalt]

Definitely not targeted for the common DN, but possibly for independent proven innovative specialists/experts, acting outside Thai company structures.

[overherebc]

17 minutes ago, wobalt said:

Definitely not targeted for the common DN, but possibly for independent proven innovative specialists/experts, acting outside Thai company structures.

Who have Squillions of baht and don't mind putting 51% in their non contributing partners hands????

[wobalt]

The focus might be a on innovation and knowledge building to develop the country. Another Part could be in deed investment. Even today you could invest in Thailand without a Thai partner if you eligible for BOI status.

[LivinLOS]

As all the nomads tacitly admit, after my mate Nate, and the teasing of this visa that this would finally make them legal.. Admitting they are not now.. 

 

And then it turns out that the smart visa, sets the bar far too high for them (or me) and is for high level execs of currently registered Thai companies etc.. 

 

 

[startuper]

Hi guys, thank you for your opinions, but if I can sum up - you do not know any better than me ;-). It could be useful for DN or it couldn't, we will see...

 

One way or another, it is more than clear that it will not work for every digital nomad, because it is obvious that there is wide grey zone between common backpacker and real digital professional and they will have to recognize DNs over all the doubts for the granting of visas. That's for sure.

 

But it doesn't mean, it's not intended for DNs at all. They write "startup entrepreneurs" and "high skilled professionals", they encourage to bring a family and say a lot about transferring technologies and skills. At the moment I can't imagine what conditions they have in their mind. Because it's really hard to fairly say who is DN and who is not. That's why I'm curious and why I'm looking for more info. But if it will be investment visa, why they should talk about technologies and high-skilled professionals? And why the name "smart visa"? It would be more easy to name it "investment visa" and it will be clear. Ok, maybe I will not meet this conditions, I don't know, but I we should not lose hope.

 
Look, in Thailand are really a lot digital nomads. Maybe it is most popular country for them. Maybe government [yes I know, now I'm in crazy optimistic regime] starts to realize that this people are a real gold for the country. Even they do not bring lot of money, but they bring some and all their income is from abroad and all their spending is in Thailand. This is essential. Besides that, they are (in general) smart people, who can teach local guys lot of things. They usually do not commit criminal offenses and obey the law. Who would not want them? Say one reason... :-) [end of optimistic regime] :-) 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

As all the nomads tacitly admit, after my mate Nate, and the teasing of this visa that this would finally make them legal.. Admitting they are not now.. 

 

And then it turns out that the smart visa, sets the bar far too high for them (or me) and is for high level execs of currently registered Thai companies etc.. 

 

 

Uh, I'm not ever closely related to to that British or US brat.

I'm 25 years Internet veteran, who has seen the birth of the Internet, who has actually met quite a few of the most influential folks, who have made the Internet, what it is today.. and yes, created interuniversity communication systems, before gopher and the www.

I and we are the skilful nomads, who we should talk about. Not these kids, who abuse others, to gain flash fame for only for themselves. 

 

[Guest]

I'm closing to my mid 40's and have wanted to find a fair and stable way to live in Thailand. 
I used to had my own company, with 4 Thai 'employees', who I never met, but whose social security bills I paid each month. I saw 'my' own company door first time after 6 years of paying taxes, social fees and everything else, which comes along running a company. 

That is just nuts. I'm perfectly ok to pay my taxes and fair share for the society. I do not like to 'pay' and then have to fear, that I have not been legit. 

All this time I could have been a nomad, simply not paying the 100.000 baht/year taxes and other billis, which come along running a company, but I choose to be fair for Thailand. 

If there is a way for folks, who wish to live here, make their business here, paying their taxes here, when being fully legit.. I'm for the change. 

Put a 50.000 baht/year charge for the visa (taxes included) and give 5 year visa.. I'm for it. 

Simply make it easy and legal.. Make it so that the digital nomads have also their own legal rights.

I'm likely to move out of Thailand, when the time is right. I have been planning that for years.
 

[lkv]

As others have said, and I fully agree, the Thai Government's definition of nomad is Chinese engineer working for company investing tens of millions in railways, infrastructure and similar things, if we were to consider this a "smart" "nomad" visa.

 

Not Amazon FBA, web design etc.

 

But it will all be clarified in January.

Edited August 31, 2017 by lkv

[JLCrab]

From Mission Statement Thailand Ministry Digital Economy & Society (MDES):

4 To promote and support digital society development in order to elevate the people’s knowledge and capabilities in applying and creating value added with digital technology.

5 To equip the personnel on digital information with professional standards and to develop the people’s knowledge of using digital creatively to boost the potential and capabilities of the country’s competitiveness.

http://www.mict.go.th/view/10/home

(my) Executive Summary: Jobs

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

From the article:

"To be eligible, applicants must be investors, startup entrepreneurs, high-level executives or highly skilled professionals."

 

"startup entrepreneurs" I would think you would need to do a proper investment and hire Thai staff to get into this category. A revenue of 20-50K a month wouldn't get you there, especially with the following being said too:

"the new visa would enable knowledge transfer that would boost business growth in the country and long-term economic benefits."

I agree with your conclusion - how this visa is aimed and who will get it.  But many Thais could do very well with a knowledge transfer of skilled web-programmers. 

Anyone who thinks this is easy, should try building a complex, dynamic web site - front and back-end - in their spare time. 

Every Thai who learns to do this can easily support their family here, and without abandoning their home/family to move to an urban-center.

 

8 hours ago, lkv said:

As others have said, and I fully agree, the Thai Government's definition of nomad is Chinese engineer working for company investing tens of millions in railways, infrastructure and similar things, if we were to consider this a "smart" "nomad" visa.

 

Not Amazon FBA, web design etc.

As with the previous quoted-comment, I would not be surprised if "Chinese Engineer" is what is intended - and would agree that Amazon re-sellers are not "highly qualified professionals" (though may be good marketers/salesmen). 

But what about those with MS degrees in Computer Science who can actually do/teach complex techniques?  I am married to a Thai - don't need the visa - but would like to "do things that are useful" (to quote a famous Thai) which help Thais and Thailand.  But to do this, and hire/teach/train/mentor Thais, I need to "invest" a pile of money as 'capital' which is completely unnecessary for the business-structure? 

 

14 hours ago, overherebc said:

Not even sure if the Condo system still applies.

The 10M Baht investor-based visa-solution still exists - a better deal IMO than the "burn your money" alternative - if not for visa-restrictions which make it harder to keep your condos occupied.  Too bad they didn't keep the level at 3M Baht, and bring in more foreign-capital spenders to Thailand, to help fuel Thai businesses.  They should include used-condos, also, because there are many vacant condos - the price for 1-year leases has dropped 30%+ since last year in the Pattaya/Jomtien area (even nice ones with sea-view) for those who shop-around.  Many have "bank-reclaimed" notices on them, and Thai owners are trying to get even a fraction of their mortgages paid.

[FritsSikkink]

12 hours ago, startuper said:

Hi guys, thank you for your opinions, but if I can sum up - you do not know any better than me ;-). It could be useful for DN or it couldn't, we will see...

 

One way or another, it is more than clear that it will not work for every digital nomad, because it is obvious that there is wide grey zone between common backpacker and real digital professional and they will have to recognize DNs over all the doubts for the granting of visas. That's for sure.

 

But it doesn't mean, it's not intended for DNs at all. They write "startup entrepreneurs" and "high skilled professionals", they encourage to bring a family and say a lot about transferring technologies and skills. At the moment I can't imagine what conditions they have in their mind. Because it's really hard to fairly say who is DN and who is not. That's why I'm curious and why I'm looking for more info. But if it will be investment visa, why they should talk about technologies and high-skilled professionals? And why the name "smart visa"? It would be more easy to name it "investment visa" and it will be clear. Ok, maybe I will not meet this conditions, I don't know, but I we should not lose hope.

 
Look, in Thailand are really a lot digital nomads. Maybe it is most popular country for them. Maybe government [yes I know, now I'm in crazy optimistic regime] starts to realize that this people are a real gold for the country. Even they do not bring lot of money, but they bring some and all their income is from abroad and all their spending is in Thailand. This is essential. Besides that, they are (in general) smart people, who can teach local guys lot of things. They usually do not commit criminal offenses and obey the law. Who would not want them? Say one reason... :-) [end of optimistic regime] :-) 

 

They commit criminal offenses as they work without a work permit, don't have an appropriate visa and don't pay any taxes here (that is 3 to start with).

[chrisinth]

It's a huge dilemma for our friendly DNs isn't it?

 

What will they be called when they have a valid visa and don't need the nomadic handle any more?

 

 All you teachers out there (qualified in the subject) should be thinking of special courses aimed at how to pay tax, etc. Opportunities knock but once, get in there quick..........................

[JackThompson]

59 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

They commit criminal offenses as they work without a work permit, don't have an appropriate visa and don't pay any taxes here (that is 3 to start with).

There is no work-permit + appropriate visa for those with modern non-brick-mortar businesses, which are not capital-intensive.  They still spend foreign-earned capital here, so do only good for Thais and the Thai economy, while doing no harm in the process.  The alternative is for them to move to Cambodia and Vietnam, which would do harm to Thailand.

 

They pay VAT taxes.  Those living on savings from previous years do not owe income-taxes.  Many live hand-to-mouth on retirement visas, do not pay taxes here on same-year earned incomes, and have less foreign-capital to spend into the economy per-year.  Tax-policy would need to be applied across-the-board - though that would drive many/most retirees to other locales - again hurting Thailand. 

 

Many would happily incorporate here and pay taxes if there were a reasonable business-visa solution on offer for the types of business they own.  It would be unfortunate, but not surprising, if this new proposed visa fails to include one of the fastest-growing labor-sectors, thereby cutting Thailand out of the potential tax-revenue and foreign-capital spending associated with those working in it.

Edited September 1, 2017 by JackThompson

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Many would happily incorporate here and pay taxes if there were a reasonable business-visa solution on offer for the types of business they own.  It would be unfortunate, but not surprising, if this new proposed visa fails to include one of the fastest-growing labor-sectors, thereby cutting Thailand out of the potential tax-revenue and foreign-capital spending associated with those working in it.

The label of "Digital Nomad" seems to apply to anyone working on the internet, which IMO is wrong. I thought the idea of being a "Digital Nomad" was the freedom to roam the world funded by their online work, so on that basis I doubt many would be happy to formalise their work unless it was very simple. It is a fast growing labour sector, but it is probably also a massive tax avoiding sector. How would Thailand tax these people if they were legit? I've worked in IT for 20+ years and the true 'DN's' that I've come across have no interest in being tied down in one place or with formality.

[at15]

17 hours ago, startuper said:

Hi guys, thank you for your opinions, but if I can sum up - you do not know any better than me ;-). It could be useful for DN or it couldn't, we will see...

 

One way or another, it is more than clear that it will not work for every digital nomad, because it is obvious that there is wide grey zone between common backpacker and real digital professional and they will have to recognize DNs over all the doubts for the granting of visas. That's for sure.

 

But it doesn't mean, it's not intended for DNs at all. They write "startup entrepreneurs" and "high skilled professionals", they encourage to bring a family and say a lot about transferring technologies and skills. At the moment I can't imagine what conditions they have in their mind. Because it's really hard to fairly say who is DN and who is not. That's why I'm curious and why I'm looking for more info. But if it will be investment visa, why they should talk about technologies and high-skilled professionals? And why the name "smart visa"? It would be more easy to name it "investment visa" and it will be clear. Ok, maybe I will not meet this conditions, I don't know, but I we should not lose hope.

 
Look, in Thailand are really a lot digital nomads. Maybe it is most popular country for them. Maybe government [yes I know, now I'm in crazy optimistic regime] starts to realize that this people are a real gold for the country. Even they do not bring lot of money, but they bring some and all their income is from abroad and all their spending is in Thailand. This is essential. Besides that, they are (in general) smart people, who can teach local guys lot of things. They usually do not commit criminal offenses and obey the law. Who would not want them? Say one reason... :-) [end of optimistic regime] :-) 

 

Very entitled little brat you are. They dont have to do anything they could say tomorrow all non asian countries are limited to 1 month in the kingdom per year and we would have to accept that. A DN by definition does not stay in one country long term, they are moving around. And most have no real savings to be buying expensive visas. 

[phuketjock]

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

There is no work-permit + appropriate visa for those with modern non-brick-mortar businesses, which are not capital-intensive.  They still spend foreign-earned capital here, so do only good for Thais and the Thai economy, while doing no harm in the process.  The alternative is for them to move to Cambodia and Vietnam, which would do harm to Thailand.

 

They pay VAT taxes.  Those living on savings from previous years do not owe income-taxes.  Many live hand-to-mouth on retirement visas, do not pay taxes here on same-year earned incomes, and have less foreign-capital to spend into the economy per-year.  Tax-policy would need to be applied across-the-board - though that would drive many/most retirees to other locales - again hurting Thailand. 

 

Many would happily incorporate here and pay taxes if there were a reasonable business-visa solution on offer for the types of business they own.  It would be unfortunate, but not surprising, if this new proposed visa fails to include one of the fastest-growing labor-sectors, thereby cutting Thailand out of the potential tax-revenue and foreign-capital spending associated with those working in it.

" while doing no harm in the process."

You obviously don't own a coffee shop or restaurant where these Digital nomads Parasites feel it is their given right

to enter and sit down at the largest table available, to accommodate all their extra phones and laptops, and order one

water or a coffee and sit for, often, 4/5 hours while availing themselves of the nice free internet and comfortable free

office space that someone else has kindly provided for them, and should they be told that this is not a business center,

or an office space you can expect to receive a nasty review the very next day, in fact any hint of criticism will draw the

threat of such a review from them, very, very nasty people. IMHO these people are not interested in being legal they are

no more than ripoff merchants leeching off honest businesses.

Everyone who lives here long term pays VAT taxes. All those living on savings and all retirees who spend their savings/

pensions contribute much more than any digital parasites to the Thai economy.

[JackThompson]

26 minutes ago, phuketjock said:

" while doing no harm in the process."

You obviously don't own a coffee shop or restaurant where these Digital nomads Parasites feel it is their given right

to enter and sit down at the largest table available, to accommodate all their extra phones and laptops, and order one

water or a coffee and sit for, often, 4/5 hours while availing themselves of the nice free internet and comfortable free

office space that someone else has kindly provided for them, and should they be told that this is not a business center,

or an office space you can expect to receive a nasty review the very next day, in fact any hint of criticism will draw the

threat of such a review from them, very, very nasty people. IMHO these people are not interested in being legal they are

no more than ripoff merchants leeching off honest businesses.

Everyone who lives here long term pays VAT taxes. All those living on savings and all retirees who spend their savings/

pensions contribute much more than any digital parasites to the Thai economy.

I am sorry to hear that some people behave this way, but anyone staying long-term would have no need to sit in your shop; home-internet is much more economical than paying for even one coffee every few hours.  Those you are thinking of would be "on the road" without home-internet, so would not be those in need of better visa options. 

 

It is unfair to try to tar everyone in an entire economic sector (remote workers and Internet entrepreneurs) as rude parasites - though I am sure there are a few who are. 

 

If this is a persistent problem in your shop, I would suggest putting a little card on each table with some ground-rules for sitting there, so no one will be surprised/angry by your shop's policy.

 

I agree on the taxes.  But I suggest you visit the retirement-ghetto areas, and then reconsider how much those people could possibly be contributing, as compared to those earning a living with online businesses.  As with digital entrepreneurs, some retirees do better than others.

Edited September 1, 2017 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

57 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The label of "Digital Nomad" seems to apply to anyone working on the internet, which IMO is wrong. I thought the idea of being a "Digital Nomad" was the freedom to roam the world funded by their online work, so on that basis I doubt many would be happy to formalise their work unless it was very simple. It is a fast growing labour sector, but it is probably also a massive tax avoiding sector. How would Thailand tax these people if they were legit? I've worked in IT for 20+ years and the true 'DN's' that I've come across have no interest in being tied down in one place or with formality.

There are different categories - and those who liked to roam in the past, sometimes find a place they would like to call home (yours truly).  Yes, some are proud of tax-avoidance.  My suggestion is a B-Visa and "offshore work permit" scheme (no work for Thai entities permitted), which incorporates a min-tax payment.  This would allow under-50s to live here and conduct their online-activities sans visa-runs or any concern about legalities of such. 

[phuketjock]

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I am sorry to hear that some people behave this way, but anyone staying long-term would have no need to sit in your shop; home-internet is much more economical than paying for even one coffee every few hours.  Those you are thinking of would be "on the road" without home-internet, so would not be those in need of better visa options. 

 

It is unfair to try to tar everyone in an entire economic sector (remote workers and Internet entrepreneurs) as rude parasites - though I am sure there are a few who are. 

 

If this is a persistent problem in your shop, I would suggest putting a little card on each table with some ground-rules for sitting there, so no one will be surprised/angry by your shop's policy.

 

I agree on the taxes.  But I suggest you visit the retirement-ghetto areas, and then reconsider how much those people could possibly be contributing, as compared to those earning a living with online businesses.  As with digital entrepreneurs, some retirees do better than others.

You really are out of touch Jack, I came back to my wife's coffee shop, from a shopping trip, one day to find

to find no less than six laptops and all on her largest tables ( 4 seats ) why is it so difficult for you to understand

they don't have or want homes they want all they can get free or at as little cost as possible because i think they

are not really that good at what they are doing and if they actually had to pay rent of any amount they would

most probably be making nothing anyway.

I am not thinking about it Jack my wife has experienced it first hand. I have fixed the problem, for now but not

before receiving several vile lying reviews.

I fully expect i will have to do battle with these parasites once more in the upcoming high season again. I thank

you for being an honest digital worker but i believe the majority are not, you are rare along with oilinky.