Thaksin founded the Shinawatra dynasty, but the military empowered it

[sjaak327]

18 minutes ago, jayboy said:

It's interesting that this article from The Nation notes that the military ousted Yingluck in 2014.Obviously this is shorthand given the directed court intervention.But everyone understands what is meant.

 

Yet when one refers to military involvement in Yingluck's ouster on this forum there is usually a scream of outrage from the usual suspects.Much the same happens if one mentions the military's involvement in Thaksin's ouster (he wasn't PM at the time etc etc ad nauseam).

 

It's just a reminder that those who seek to manipulate and deceive about the past can hardly be taken seriously when they comment on the present.

Huh ? since when was Thaksin not the acting PM of Thailand during the 2006 coup, he most certainly was. a care taker PM is still PM.

[johng]

but I suppose you could start a little club comprised of fellow "There was no coup" fantasists.

Same same but different from the no spoon club.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

... Do not try to invalidate my posts with false logic and assumptions or I will be force to report you. ...

This 'toys out of the pram' moment brought to you by...

 

Sophistry my ass.

[NanLaew]

56 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Please do not post untruths. That is against forum rules.

Or as a certain, self-appointed 'leader' has been known to suggest when batting away those infrequent, pithy questions from the less obeisant local reporter,  "Please don't suggest there's another side to the story. That is not the way of Thailand 4.0"

[NanLaew]

57 minutes ago, ben2talk said:

I'm starting to worry already. After visiting the office for a 'test' and getting messages from mum in her office, I snapped him sitting with his pencil and the office staff had hernias 'ooooh, no no no no photograph'.

 

They also did this when I came the first time - are they paranoid of revealing some super high-secret practices in their boring little offices?

 

The test itself is extremely basic (the same for many schools I imagine)>.. formula questions 'What is your name, what is your nickname'.... He got stuck when they kept asking for his nickname. I call him James because that's his name. They don't seem to understand that not everyone thinks it is necessary to have a name they don't use and then a nickname like 'fat' or 'pig' for everyone else...  So he was put under unnecessary stress by this question but handled it okay this time.

 

The next issue is that they wrote out a yellow 'pass' ticket with an appointment date without consulting me, and that date is not convenient. Worse service than a local dentist.

This 'posting in the wrong thread' moment brought to you by...

[Eric Loh]

44 minutes ago, henry15 said:

Facts.

Pue Thai did not win a single seat, in the southern provinces.

Look at the map.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2011

You not wrong. Simply the democratic process in motion whereby all eligible citizens are allowed equal participation and they elect their leaders through electoral process. The south voted for the Dem; that's within their democratic rights but failed to win the majority and that's the fact.

 

As you know, the south provinces were the first to develop due to rubber since the early 20th century. The economy boomed along with better income and education. Most Dem politicians came from the south and when they were in power put much of their resources to develop the south. The relationship from home town politicians and development cemented the relationship and reflected in the polls.

 

However the oldest political party in Thailand history failed to recognize and needs of other provinces in the north and north east. So the real question to ask is why a 80+ years political party didn't acknowledge and do more for these provinces and allow a relatively young TRT to tap on the social-political inequalities and win the election. It is a Dem failure more than a TRT success. If it was not Thaksin, it will be someone else who want to do something for the impoverished north and north east and gave them a political voice and a share of the country wealth.  

 

 

[impulse]

28 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Or as a certain, self-appointed 'leader' has been known to suggest when batting away those infrequent, pithy questions from the less obeisant local reporter,  "Please don't suggest there's another side to the story. That is not the way of Thailand 4.0"

 

I'd challenge your characterization of a "self appointed" leader.  He may be a willing participant, but he didn't do the appointing.

 

[mike324]

Thaksin / Yingluck had around 45-49% of the votes in Bangkok.  Thaksin would have got more than 50% if he wasn't ousted and continue to run for PM. For those who keep on saying Bangkok is full of elites is wrong.  There are almost as many folks in Bangkok who supported the Shinawatra family.

 

The fact that Thaksin became so influential was that he gave power to his police buddies and elevated their influence in Thai politics and businesses. To back that up, he also had friends who are generals. This is what makes him so powerful and Thai politics so dirty. Full of crooks and scums preying on citizens.

[yellowboat]

Just now, mike324 said:

Thaksin / Yingluck had around 45-49% of the votes in Bangkok.  Thaksin would have got more than 50% if he wasn't ousted and continue to run for PM. For those who keep on saying Bangkok is full of elites is wrong.  There are almost as many folks in Bangkok who supported the Shinawatra family.

 

The fact that Thaksin became so influential was that he gave power to his police buddies and elevated their influence in Thai politics and businesses. To back that up, he also had friends who are generals. This is what makes him so powerful and Thai politics so dirty. Full of crooks and scums preying on citizens.

He is no angel, but he was good for the country's economy and the average Thai, who, according to the article, was forsaken for decades.  He was given office by the inept, lazy elites. 

[Samui Bodoh]

2 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

You not wrong. Simply the democratic process in motion whereby all eligible citizens are allowed equal participation and they elect their leaders through electoral process. The south voted for the Dem; that's within their democratic rights but failed to win the majority and that's the fact.

 

As you know, the south provinces were the first to develop due to rubber since the early 20th century. The economy boomed along with better income and education. Most Dem politicians came from the south and when they were in power put much of their resources to develop the south. The relationship from home town politicians and development cemented the relationship and reflected in the polls.

 

However the oldest political party in Thailand history failed to recognize and needs of other provinces in the north and north east. So the real question to ask is why a 80+ years political party didn't acknowledge and do more for these provinces and allow a relatively young TRT to tap on the social-political inequalities and win the election. It is a Dem failure more than a TRT success. If it was not Thaksin, it will be someone else who want to do something for the impoverished north and north east and gave them a political voice and a share of the country wealth.  

 

 

 

Well said.

 

I truly wonder if there is a realization among the 'Yellow' side that things simply must change in Thailand. It seems clear to me that if governments continue to ignore or disparage folks in the North and North East, then the troubles will continue, be it with the 'reds' or with some other entity that arises in its place.

 

And yet, as an outside observer, I still think that they just don't get it.

 

It is a sad situation; Thailand is a wonderful country with loads of potential. However, I still don't see any genuine steps being taken to achieve that potential, nor do I see that they even understand the problem.

 

To paraphrase an old saying;

 

A country is a terrible thing to waste

 

 

 

[jonclark]

4 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Their present leaders weren't elected into office. They were appointed. How and by whom is a "secret". They are their to ensure the Red Shirts do as told. 

 

The UDD and Red Shirts don't practice democracy in their own organizations, and neither does PTP for that matter. Until that changes, the rural people, the poor, the working class, or whatever label you tag the masses with, won't have a real representation.

Whilst there maybe aspects to what you said as being  true. PTP / UDD Still offer the working class far better representation, or the illusion of representation than either the military or the other political parties.

 

And on that basis alone they are a better bet for the working classes and for that reason alone expect another landslide for PTP when elections happen. And if its a big enough landslide the military men in power may find themselves caught between a rock (the coup orchestrated polices they have put in place) and a hard-place (the overwhelming popular support to change those policies).

 

We live in interesting times indeed.  

[billd766]

4 hours ago, yellowboat said:

Oh, geeze what a nitpick.  Grasping at straws.  So you believe because red shirt leaders are appointed, the military had every right to defile universal suffrage ?   They voted for these people, so they must have believed in them. 

 

Well as the RedShirts are not actually a politcal party at all how could anyone vote for them?

 

Did the Red Shirts EVER have any internal elections to choose their leaders?

 

Not AFAIK.

 

As far as I have seen of the UDD their leaders are selected by the self perpetuating existing leaders without any elections or reference to the members. Their accounts are shrouded in secrecy so nobody knows how much or where the operating funds come from.

 

If I am wrong then please point out how and where I am wrong.

[ovi1kanobi]

7 hours ago, darksidedog said:

Well there is confirmation, despite assurances that elections were just around the corner, of what we have all believed for quite some time. Prayut does not intend to give up his power and Democracy will be missing from these shores a good while longer.

That will help Thailand progress more then elections would. Its the best option.

[Media1]

The military are destroying the country and do not have a brain between them. Best they shuffle back to barracks and  get building commissions through fear tactics. Even better still go back to bed. Your not academic or world vision individuals. You have not a clue the damage you have done. You have offered no improvement. In fact you have played along in the corruption soapy to a T. 

You have empowered nothing and nobody that's not on meds is not supporting you lol.

[Media1]

10 minutes ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Thaksin or the Shinawatras weren't even close to the most corrupt.

I disagree people call him a fugitive lol. For what buying property. The man was a very hard working success. Something Prayut dreamed of but never had the brains. His own brother did what Thaksin did and it's swept away lol. 

Just old jealous men 

[yellowboat]

42 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Well as the RedShirts are not actually a politcal party at all how could anyone vote for them?

 

Did the Red Shirts EVER have any internal elections to choose their leaders?

 

Not AFAIK.

 

As far as I have seen of the UDD their leaders are selected by the self perpetuating existing leaders without any elections or reference to the members. Their accounts are shrouded in secrecy so nobody knows how much or where the operating funds come from.

 

If I am wrong then please point out how and where I am wrong.

Don't know.  Don't care.  Are there any legal guidelines as to how party members are selected ?   Your point is interesting and perhaps the voting should say something, but they do not seem to care. 

[natway09]

Some great comments here on a very well written article.

Let me add something important which has been overlooked somewhat 

The military aided & abetted the "clan" as they call it by allowing them to control Thailand's

satellites & telecommunications completely, which would have been impossible without military approval.

When it suited them the military bent the rules which as we now know turned around & bit them on the bum

[mike324]

2 hours ago, yellowboat said:

He is no angel, but he was good for the country's economy and the average Thai, who, according to the article, was forsaken for decades.  He was given office by the inept, lazy elites. 

I agree, he was a good change for the stagnant political situation. He got the wheels turning and modernizing the country a bit. But as times change, he had to go as well as he became way too corrupt.

[sandemara]

12 hours ago, webfact said:

If they want to break this cycle, the Thai middle-class and elite cannot continue to blindly dismiss the very core democratic principle of one-man-one-vote, while embracing military rule on the pretext that rural voters are victims of populist policies and vote-buying.

 

While vote-buying was indeed a significant problem in Thailand from the 1970s into the 2000s, today it has little significant impact because most voters are fully aware of party manifestos and their implications on public policies. Moreover, middle-class assumptions that rural voters are naive are not only outdated and erroneous, but emphasise the inherent socio-political inequalities which gave rise to Thaksin in the first place.

Times certainly are a-changing. Pretty summary of major issues. Stormy unstable period ahead. I enjoyed the article.

[ovi1kanobi]

7 hours ago, Media1 said:

 

I support this goverment 1000% Thankyou very much. long live PRAYUTH!

[ovi1kanobi]

6 hours ago, mike324 said:

I agree, he was a good change for the stagnant political situation. He got the wheels turning and modernizing the country a bit. But as times change, he had to go as well as he became way too corrupt.

Thaksin Is more then corrupt he is evil personified!

[bangrak]

Mr Titipol, your name makes me think you are Thai, but this can't be when you write something like: 'Thaksin founded the Shinawatra dynasty...'. Even the worst informed Thai knows the concept of 'Shinawatra dynasty' goes way back, a pair of generations, to the grand'parents and parents of Thaksin's father and of his uncle Damapong, who materialised it with son/nephew Thaksin as the first stone.

I really don't understand where the ideas of the ones deciding to publish your kind of stuff might be!

A shame it is!  

[moe666]

13 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The Shiniwattras main power base is Chiang Mai, their home city. Hence their references to Lanna when it suits them.

 

Part of the explanation, possibly, is the old feudal type patronages and strong influence of the powerful families in those regions. People follow who there families have always supported - and no one wants, or dares, to be seen to break with that tradition. Then someone like Thaksin comes along who can weave alliances with favors, broker deals, and unite some into a bigger amalgamation to support himself, and rocks the boat.

 

 

You do not know that much about Chiang Mai and the North as you think. Yes he has a power base here but do not ever think every person in the North follows him in lock step.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

16 hours ago, yellowboat said:

More bad news for the coup apologists and their vote buying argument. 

 

Thailand is the land of shortcuts.  This shortcut is probably going to cost the country greatly and allow their neighbors to pass it by.  China made huge progress in 20 years, zooming past Thailand.  All this because the elite and uneducated middle class did not want to play by the same rules that places like Taiwan hold dear. 

Not sure why you are siting China as an example? China remains a communist state run by a seven man politburo. I don't think they are about to hold elections any time soon, well not the type we might expect in democratic societies anyway.

The system might include factions of the Communist Party of China but they all adhere strictly to Marxist doctrine. Considering the Party control the Red Army it could be seen that China's form of communism is just another military junta by another name.

 

 

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

3 hours ago, bangrak said:

Mr Titipol, your name makes me think you are Thai, but this can't be when you write something like: 'Thaksin founded the Shinawatra dynasty...'. Even the worst informed Thai knows the concept of 'Shinawatra dynasty' goes way back, a pair of generations, to the grand'parents and parents of Thaksin's father and of his uncle Damapong, who materialised it with son/nephew Thaksin as the first stone.

I really don't understand where the ideas of the ones deciding to publish your kind of stuff might be!

A shame it is!  

Academics! He missed out an awful lot of relevant facts, and another that forgets Yinluck was "impeached" before the coup.

The article is thought provoking though.

 

 

 

[Reigntax]

17 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Their present leaders weren't elected into office. They were appointed. How and by whom is a "secret". They are their to ensure the Red Shirts do as told. 

 

The UDD and Red Shirts don't practice democracy in their own organizations, and neither does PTP for that matter. Until that changes, the rural people, the poor, the working class, or whatever label you tag the masses with, won't have a real representation.

 

But still far better representation than they currently do under a self appointed, non elected, undemocratic, unrepresentative of the people government which somehow you conveniently ignore.

[Reigntax]

4 hours ago, ovi1kanobi said:

I support this goverment 1000% Thankyou very much. long live PRAYUTH!

 

Mathematics not your best subject? Is that like all 10 of you?

[tomta]

19 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

The Redshirts have a very valid cause, the struggle for equality of justice and democracy. So unfortunate that they fell under the leadership of the most corrupt person/family in Thai history. In the long run they would do well to distance themselves from this influence so that they could possibly move on into a legitimate political force. Unfortunately there is a distinct possibility that their present leaders are only there to suck up the shinawatra funding.

I ask you to look just 60 years back at Prime MInister Sarit for a candidate for the most corrupt person

 

[tomta]

17 hours ago, henry15 said:

Facts.

Pue Thai did not win a single seat, in the southern provinces.

Look at the map.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2011

So what?

[tomta]

18 hours ago, henry15 said:

Howcome that that that from Bangkok till the border of Malasia  not have a Red Shirt movement and the PT  not even win a single seat in parliament. And  why the mayority of the Southern people are yellow shirts, and came to demonstrate  in Bangkok in 2008  and 2013 and 2014. Its far to easy to blame the elite and the Bangkokian middle class. Also in the Central region PT and Red Shirts are les populary than many think. Just see the election results.

In fact its  mainly 2 etnic minorities (Laos & Khmer) who are Red Shirts  and  Thaksin supporters. Its a taboo to  say that all the political turmoil is become an etnic conflict, instigated by Thaksin and red shirt populist leaders.

So they are minorities but these minorities somehow keep winning the majority of parliamentary seats? Doesn't that make these ethnic groups the majority?